Who'll be the better president?

[Bigjohn]

And I can go 1 mile and get it for free.....fook capitalism, give me common sense every time!

Your're not getting it for free.
The government is going to someone else and making them pay for it..

 

[WhiteLotus]

What are you talking about? Americans can get the same healthcare without costs up front, usually within a mile or two, as well...

They just have to 1) wait until they're almost dead 2) go to an emergency room at a hospital, and then 3) accept tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt that they'll be paying off their entire lives. :shadedshu

ya - but we're Brits!

 

[mdm-adph]

Your're not getting it for free.
The government is going to someone else and making them pay for it..

Golly -- you make it sound as if every time someone goes to the doctor in Europe, the government goes out and robs some poor family. :shadedshu

Instead of how it actually is, like how every citizen in the country pays a little bit in taxes to get healthcare for everyone -- not to mention the large part of healthcare financing that comes from the VAT (something America doesn't have, either).

Have you ever even lived anywhere other than America?

 

[Bigjohn]

taxes, taxes,and more taxes... it stops when you're a slave to the government and they give you an allowance to live on...

 

[WhiteLotus]

Golly -- you make it sound as if every time someone goes to the doctor in Europe, the government goes out and robs some poor family. :shadedshu

Instead of how it actually is, like how every citizen in the country pays a little bit in taxes to get healthcare for everyone -- not to mention the large part of healthcare financing that comes from the VAT (something America doesn't have, either).

Have you ever even lived anywhere other than America?

We pay:
VAT
Tax
and National Insurance.

They be the three main ones anyway, that I can think of. As far as i know NI goes towards NHS. Tatty would probably be able to say more - i'm only young. lulz

 

[Tatty_Two]

What are you talking about? Americans can get the same healthcare without costs up front, usually within a mile or two, as well...

They just have to 1) wait until they're almost dead 2) go to an emergency room at a hospital, and then 3) accept tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt that they'll be paying off their entire lives. :shadedshu

Well you cant get it for free then if 3 applies, remember we have a nationalised healthcare system, no private companies getting paid, we the people, through our taxes pay and we the people get the benefit.

An example, this time really trying to not personalise it but it is a good (and nice) example, my wife went to see her Doctor 3 weeks ago because she had a small lump in her neck near her thyroid, we call that Doktor HER GP (general practioner), thats not in a hospital but her own everyday doctor local to us, she examined her and refered her to a consultant at a hospital, one week later she saw the consultant who took a biopsy, one week later she got the results, and one week later (this Thursday) she is going into hospital for a 2 hour operation to have it removed! At no cost apart from my taxes which they are gonna take anyways (OK, thats another story).

Now I would be the first to admit that things dont necessarily go that quick all the time or that smoothly however, in this case thats how it went.

 

[Rammsteiner]

There needs to be at least two sides to every issue. If you are in unanimous agreement, obviously you aren't looking in the right places for an opinion.

You forget that the government should be representing the population in a certain way. If either Obama or McCain were chosen you already put down the other ~50% of the population. There's always things that do not fit your opinion, but the difference betweem Obama and McCain, but as well in the past republican vs democrats, is too big.

With the whole economic crisis going on it's way too overhyped and no one cares what the rest of their plans are. And that's plain stupid, but hey, wtf do I expect from voters thinking Obama is actually a friend of terrorists, might be a muslim as well and support a hypocrit VP as Palin

Im not saying Obama is clean, not at all. But I picked those points because people actually fall for that crap, which is plain stupid.

Oh, really? Then you know something I don't. Do tell.

Oh didnt FOX let that know, what a surprise.

No, not really. Bin Laden is holding a grudge against the USA just like Bush was holding a grudge against Hussein. Bin Laden was writing a story and needed an antagonist. At the time, USA was the best choice in his eyes.

When does his book gets released?

Yeah, we pissed of bin Laden alright...by being better than him. Since there is no way he could get up to our level before he dies, he tries to tear us down to his level...

Thus far the only one not winning is actually USA FYI. You missed the idea of commanders actually thinking there should be a political agreement with the Taliban because the current war is impossible to win? No, actually, the amount of attacks from the Taliban is rising, but sure as hell USA is winning it

They are a sign of authority--everything you shouldn't do. People are naturally intimidated by that. Iraqi's are intimidated seeing state of the art military equipment flying past their house and troops decked out in full body armor with a gun the size of a small child, as they should be. You really don't appreciate them until the enemy fires at you and they return fire, in which case, they provide a sense of security that would have become panic had they not been there.

Want the M16 state of the art military? Weren't jet fighters state of the art military? Funny how they got owned in quite a few important situations by eastern weaponry.

No matter how well your army is loaded, one epic boobytrap will become a certain death no matter how cheap it is. Look at all those bombs ripping Humvee's around. And who got to put down even more money to improve eventual Humvee's and/or invest into better vehicles? So who won then? Right.

Besides that, it's plain rubbish what you say. Shouldnt Iraq people then be very thankfull for USA presence? No, they're not. I can imagine after a generation Iraq people are less happy with that, but if USA really helped them they still would be thankfull really. Like South-Korea, new generation turns anti-USA while the older generation is still thankfull.

They never had "elections" in Iraq while Hussein was in power. I doubt that claim on basis anyway. :/

If there was such a huge anti-Hussein rage among the people he wouldnt have been there. Still people support him and the army back then was apperently mostly pro-Hussein as well, this shows something different.

The Taliban is no longer in power in Afghanistan and they haven't been for many years. So, they want their power back but they will die trying.

Nope, they're not dieing while trying. If they weren't in power in Afghanistan, then what exactly is USA doing there.

It is very communist in leadership. The economic elements are really only present in the large cities of China where the communist leadership has "blessed" certain business owners to operate in a capitalist fashion (money, money, money). The farther away you get from the cities, the more apparent the communist control becomes (which is the majority, by the way).

I know... But you ain't listening, if it was such communistic then the capitalistic moves wouldnt be there. Im not saying Chinsa is capitalistic, nor liberal. Im saying Im not so sure whether it's seriously a communistic country anymore. It's only moving more and more socialistic/liberal.

The place that costs $40,000 is ranked either #1 or #2 hospital in the world (Mayo Clinic). When treated there, you have about 3 different doctors and 9 in training with a massive support staff of nurses and the like. All of which are probably paid at least six figure digits.

So what. Bank directors earn a lot, how many needed help again because they made epic fuck ups?

America is a great country. Best in the WORLD, IMHO. But it's great because of it's people and their initiative, not because of the entitlement class who would hold a gun to the head of a CEO and say " all the money above that much is MINE"...

Have you been in every country around the world to say it's the best in the world then

Too much arrogance in that post though:shadedshu

 

[Tatty_Two]

Golly -- you make it sound as if every time someone goes to the doctor in Europe, the government goes out and robs some poor family. :shadedshu

Instead of how it actually is, like how every citizen in the country pays a little bit in taxes to get healthcare for everyone -- not to mention the large part of healthcare financing that comes from the VAT (something America doesn't have, either).

Have you ever even lived anywhere other than America?

You do have sales tax though dont you?....thats is fairly similar.

 

[mdm-adph]

taxes, taxes,and more taxes... it stops when you're a slave to the government and they give you an allowance to live on...

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- like I've said before, show me a government that can operate in a civilized manner without taxes. You never answered that one.

...and why are you still here, anyway? Why haven't you gone to nature and decided to live truly "free?" Or got a bunch of your objectivist friends and started your own commune somewhere in Montana?

 

[Tatty_Two]

We pay:
VAT
Tax
and National Insurance.

They be the three main ones anyway, that I can think of. As far as i know NI goes towards NHS. Tatty would probably be able to say more - i'm only young. lulz

Spot on, National Insurance topped up occasionally by normal tax.

 

[mdm-adph]

You do have sales tax though dont you?....thats is fairly similar.

The sales tax in America doesn't scale with luxury items like a VAT, and it's independent upon each individual states -- some states like Florida don't have a sales tax at all, last time I checked.

 

[Bigjohn]

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- like I've said before, show me a government that can operate in a civilized manner without taxes. You never answered that one.

yeah, i did. The USA prior to the 'progressiveist' movement in the 1920's.

...and why are you still here, anyway? Why haven't you gone to nature and decided to live truly "free?" Or got a bunch of your objectivist friends and started your own commune somewhere in Montana?

Yeah, so they can pull a Koresh on me when they decide we're not paying our fair share?

 

[Rammsteiner]

...and why are you still here, anyway? Why haven't you gone to nature and decided to live truly "free?"

Because he'll be killed by USA party to expend 'The land of the free'?

 

[mdm-adph]

yeah, i did. The USA prior to the 'progressiveist' movement in the 1920's.

Ah, you mean back when the average life expectancy was around less than 40 years of age, and that's IF you survived a childhood of working in factory mills where you were more likely to die being ground in the wheels of some huge machine before your 18th birthday.

Oh yeah -- life was so much better before modern taxation and corporate regulation. :shadedshu

Yeah, so they can pull a Koresh on me when they decide we're not paying our fair share?

So? You'll die free -- why don't you live by the words of the True American Patriot™ Patrick Henry who said "Give me Liberty or Give me Death."

Practice what you preach about "freedom from taxation," or shut up and let the rest of us get on with leading civilized lives.

 

[Polaris573]

The idea that any government can operate without taxes is not laissez-faire liberalism (classical liberalism), conservatism, neo-conservatism, or even libertarianism. It is anarchy. Anyone who advocates the abolishment of governmental revenue sources advocates the destruction of said government (for better or worse). The United States constitution originally provided for the federal government to produce revenue in the form of tariffs and taxation of interstate commerce, an amendment later provided for income tax. So even if the controversial income tax was repealed there would still be taxes. In addition, any power not expressly given to the federal government is granted to the states so taxation of any type at the state level would still be legal. There is no basis for the abolishment of all taxes on a constitutional or historical level except among anarchists. The only tax that has not been present in the United States since 1776 is the federal income tax.

On the note of regulation it is a government job to not only protect the people from foreign powers, but to protect them from their fellow countrymen. Legislation requiring products to be safe (cars, drugs, foods, buildings, etc.) are all forms of government regulation of business. The average man does not have the ability or knowledge to insure all products he or she consumes are safe. Without government oversight a person could consume poisonous food and never be able to discover that it is, in fact, his food making him sick. Deceptive accounting practices and predatory actions against consumers and other corporations are also realms requiring oversight by governments to insure the safety of the people. The abusive monopoly of Standard Oil, Carnegie Steel, and the lack workplace labor laws are a few historical precedents too numerous to count where government must protect against human rights violations. The free market does not take care of these things any more then you could alleviate crime in a country without police by simply moving to another city. The free market does not extend to these things. It is an economic system allowing for the setting of prices, interest rates, and value on goods and services based on supply and demand. Applying it to philosophy (philosophy is not economics) and the rule of law is ludicrous.

 

[WarEagleAU]

This whole forum is starting to blend together. Cranky here, mad and angry there.

Big John, I think I have a decent handle on trickle down economics and personally Im not in favor to the redistribution plan.

 

[ckoons1]

if Obama gets elected .We all better pray he is experienced enough becuase it is our lives and our childrens futures we all talking about here.I do not trust his lack of experience but that is just my opinion.

 

[Bigjohn]

So we lock them in jail for 20 years and pay how much? When we could of had a healthcare center to treat them for their problems, and at least try to fix the real problem. Which would be cheaper in the end. Have you ever heard the amount of people that are in jail because they could not afford heathcare, and are simply nuts then comet a ton of crimes. That they would not of been committing if they have had treatment.

Or let them die in the gutter where they belong. The gene pool does not need them. We, the human race, are the only race on the planet that drags down the successful to raise up those who just consume air... does that make us more advanced? nope. It means we're ignoring natural law, most probably to our own detriment. Ever read Philip K Dick? He wrote about whats coming in a short story called "the marching morons".... The stupid breed faster than the intelligent, and we allow it.... eventually (today!?) the morons out number the people who want to succeed....

Lets just say

What if you had a daughter in college. She working lets say at a book store for 7 dollars an hour. You(just for saying) have saved up for her to go to school her entire life. But she ends up getting pregnant, and you yourself don't have a high paying job to afford for her to have that child, and neither does she. You would rather force an abortion on her, then to lean a helping hand out(with all the money you have paid in over the years)and have your grandchild?


Don't let one rotten apple, ruin the whole pile of apples.

I pay for my daughter's birth control, and she uses a condom every time.
And, were that odd incident to occur, she would have the choice - keep it or abort it. WE would find a way to handle the costs, just like we did when we had "surprise" child number 3.

And I don't have a high paying job. Or a college degree... but I don't do stupid shit that I can't afford to pay for either.

But, back to your point - the answer in full is - if you don't want to get pregnant, the only 100% solution is to not spread your legs. If you do it without being prepared for the consequences, the consequences will bite you in the ass.

Oh, and if the government would keep their f*kin hand out of my wallet, I'd be able to afford a lot more, and prepare myself for emergencies.

I find it interesting why american's want to privitize everything. Privitized health care for example is more expensive than a government system. Not to mention its easier to control and regulate that way. Remember, if its privitized they're TRYING to MAKE money off you.

http://cad.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/45/3/358

Even as time goes on private prisons are proving to be more expensive and are subject to less regulation than a federally run prison. I never understood the idea behind becoming a straight capitolist country when things go downhill whenever regulation is removed.

Having a free market with regulation is not socialism, its protection from greed.

If you look at the tax $ per capita that UK spends on healthcare, the waiting lists, and the amount of money that the citizens have to spend to get private care when they really want it, it is more expensive to "socialize". Do the math and get back to me on that.

Ah, ol' Barry with his "tax and spend" philosophy instead of a "fiscal conservative" like McCain, eh?

You Obama-haters are a hoot, seriously.

There you go with your cartoons again.

Regan had a Democrat congress. That's where ALL SPENDING BILLS come from.

Clinton had the Republican Revolution congress, which passed welfare reform, etc.

The repulicans started acting 'not so republican' which got them voted out 2 years ago.

in the past 2 years, the democrats have done nothing to control spending, in fact, if you look at the things they HAVE done, basically amounts to NOTHING.

 

[panchoman]

lmao @ the cartoon.

 

[Bigjohn]

Ah, you mean back when the average life expectancy was around less than 40 years of age, and that's IF you survived a childhood of working in factory mills where you were more likely to die being ground in the wheels of some huge machine before your 18th birthday.

Oh yeah -- life was so much better before modern taxation and corporate regulation. :shadedshu



So? You'll die free -- why don't you live by the words of the True American Patriot™ Patrick Henry who said "Give me Liberty or Give me Death."

Practice what you preach about "freedom from taxation," or shut up and let the rest of us get on with leading civilized lives.

I'm so sorry that my logical discourse insults your "but we should help everyone" emotionalism...

Bottom line - it's immoral to take from one for the benefit of another.
If you want to give the extra 10% that obama want's from you, feel free. The government won't turn your check away.

Better yet, give it to a charity, like I do.

But damned if I'm going to voluntarily give it to someone who refuses to help themselves.

 

[DaMulta]

Man I swear you Republicanism make us look like uncaring assholes. No wonder the whole fing world hates us right now.


How much a month do you spend on heathcare? Mine is around 300 a month. How much do they pay the Uk per month in taxes for heathcare?

 

[Tatty_Two]

if Obama gets elected .We all better pray he is experienced enough becuase it is our lives and our childrens futures we all talking about here.I do not trust his lack of experience but that is just my opinion.

Experience in politics dont necessarily make you a good President, there are plenty of examples of that around, whichever candidate wins, they need innovation, foresight, creativity, intelligence and above all, common sense............if they have all those (and perhaps others too) in abundance, then the rest will come.

 

[Bigjohn]

The idea that any government can operate without taxes is not laissez-faire liberalism (classical liberalism), conservatism, neo-conservatism, or even libertarianism. It is anarchy. Anyone who advocates the abolishment of governmental revenue sources advocates the destruction of said government (for better or worse). The United States constitution originally provided for the federal government to produce revenue in the form of tariffs and taxation of interstate commerce, an amendment later provided for income tax. So even if the controversial income tax was repealed there would still be taxes. In addition, any power not expressly given to the federal government is granted to the states so taxation of any type at the state level would still be legal. There is no basis for the abolishment of all taxes on a constitutional or historical level except among anarchists. The only tax that has not been present in the United States since 1776 is the federal income tax.

On the note of regulation it is a government job to not only protect the people from foreign powers, but to protect them from their fellow countrymen. Legislation requiring products to be safe (cars, drugs, foods, buildings, etc.) are all forms of government regulation of business. The average man does not have the ability or knowledge to insure all products he or she consumes are safe. Without government oversight a person could consume poisonous food and never be able to discover that it is, in fact, his food making him sick. Deceptive accounting practices and predatory actions against consumers and other corporations are also realms requiring oversight by governments to insure the safety of the people. The abusive monopoly of Standard Oil, Carnegie Steel, and the lack workplace labor laws are a few historical precedents too numerous to count where government must protect against human rights violations. The free market does not take care of these things any more then you could alleviate crime in a country without police by simply moving to another city. The free market does not extend to these things. It is an economic system allowing for the setting of prices, interest rates, and value on goods and services based on supply and demand. Applying it to philosophy (philosophy is not economics) and the rule of law is ludicrous.

And never once did I come out and say I was against taxes.

I'm against taxes that result in Entitlement programs. I'm against "spreading the wealth around" at the point of the federal pistol. Roads = good. Defense = good. Space Program = pretty good, but allow private competition.

Everything else? not so much. Schools = state run indoctrination centers... make them compete! This is why a large number of conservatives Home School.

 

[Tatty_Two]

Or let them die in the gutter where they belong. The gene pool does not need them. We, the human race, are the only race on the planet that drags down the successful to raise up those who just consume air... does that make us more advanced? nope. It means we're ignoring natural law, most probably to our own detriment. Ever read Philip K Dick? He wrote about whats coming in a short story called "the marching morons".... The stupid breed faster than the intelligent, and we allow it.... eventually (today!?) the morons out number the people who want to succeed....



I pay for my daughter's birth control, and she uses a condom every time.
And, were that odd incident to occur, she would have the choice - keep it or abort it. WE would find a way to handle the costs, just like we did when we had "surprise" child number 3.

And I don't have a high paying job. Or a college degree... but I don't do stupid shit that I can't afford to pay for either.

But, back to your point - the answer in full is - if you don't want to get pregnant, the only 100% solution is to not spread your legs. If you do it without being prepared for the consequences, the consequences will bite you in the ass.

Oh, and if the government would keep their f*kin hand out of my wallet, I'd be able to afford a lot more, and prepare myself for emergencies.

I assume from the birth control statement you are not a Catholic, seeing as probably around 20 - 25% of the world are, your solution aint gonna get too far now is it.

Also, taking it as a fact that the government is going to put it's hand in your wallet, the only way you will afford more.....is to earn more.

"Schools are state run indoctrination centres"...............Do you not have private schools? You can always send your kids there....you have that CHOICE you were talking about earlier, now you are saying that your party has been in Government for the last 8 years and you have a communist/socialist education system?

 

[ckoons1]

so if your Catholic you should vote for McCain