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Who'll be the better president?

Discussion in 'TPU Frontpage Polls' started by W1zzard, Oct 1, 2008.

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Who'll be the better president?

Poll closed Oct 6, 2008.
  1. Barack Obama

    1,290 vote(s)
    57.9%
  2. John McCain

    333 vote(s)
    14.9%
  3. But I want George W. Bush

    177 vote(s)
    7.9%
  4. Don't care

    429 vote(s)
    19.2%
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  1. CStylen

    CStylen New Member

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    You don't like making profits? In the US, we believe in capitalism and the free market system which generates competition for ultmately better products and services for consumers. The theory of supply and demand dictates pricing and NOT the government. It's true our healthcare needs reform, but not by governement intervention or more regulations.

    Our constitution says "We the people" not Us the Government
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2008
  2. btarunr

    btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    India is capitalist too, just that we don't believe paying ridiculous amounts of money on health-care. The least your government can do is make sure everyone gets health-care, an essential service. What's life without affordable living, food and health. You don't enjoy paying $1000 for a broken finger, do you?...something we charge $15 for.
     
  3. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    "Most Americans don't want public health care?" Eh? Most polls I see say that a majority of Americans want government run health care [source] (just one example -- search for "62% of American").

    And what's really wrong with trusting the government to run healthcare? Don't you trust your government?

    You already trust them to run your national defense (army, navy), local defense (police, highway patrol), court systems, prison systems, trade with other countries, space research -- the government does a reasonably good job at these, so what's one more system?

    Or would you rather police your own city by yourself? :p
     
  4. CStylen

    CStylen New Member

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    If it means keeping our freedoms with as little government intervention as possible then Ill pay it.
     
  5. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    But that's the problem. Our governent is obviously working for the system and not for us. While this doesn't constitute the government taking over healthcare, it does show how both are not working.
     
  6. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    The US Declaration of Independence (another of your famous documents) also says "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness," friend -- how can you have life and the pursuit of happiness if you're dying of some disease, easily treatable, that you can't get the money for? To me, a government providing it's citizens an easy way to stay alive is one of the most basic things a government should give.
     
  7. CStylen

    CStylen New Member

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    That is what the government is for. Defending our nation and building our roads, then just get out of our way.
     
  8. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Most Americans goes with what "sounds good"

    No, I don't trust my government since I feel that they are looking out for theirs and corporations best interests and not ours.

    Have you seen what the government spends our money on and the cost?!
     
  9. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    Ah, but you both miss my point -- since you're already trusting your government to do these things (I assume you're not paving your own roads and walking around your town holding a rifle in some sort of local militia), why not trust them to do one more?
     
  10. btarunr

    btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    What's a little intervention (on a systemic level) in return for saving 90%. Your government doesn't function directly in your interests. It functions in the interests of capitalism (with the intention of indirectly working in your interests) and corporations who rank their profits above your interests. In essence, you live at the mercy of corporations and how they run the show. Is this what freedom means?

    In a democracy where people make and break governments, the people deserve more. Your government should be indebted to you. It should function directly and unconditionally in your interests.
     
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  11. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Nope, I want my governent to be as small as possible while doing as much as possible without infringing on my privacy. Can't get any more simple than that.
     
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  12. Polaris573

    Polaris573 Senior Moderator

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    Oh really? Amtrak anyone? How long has the government running at a loss? There was a budgetary surplus for a very short time in the 90s, but it's been quite a long time since the government hasn't been hemorrhaging money.

    The people (Republicans and Democrats) who brought you Amtrak and an 11 trillion dollar national debt will now be bringing you:

    • Nationalized Banks
    • Nationalized Insurance
    • Nationalized Airlines
    • Nationalized Oil
    • Nationalized Auto Industry
    • Nationalized Loans

    Pardon my ignorance, but will someone please direct me to the clause in the constitution that reads, "All powers not specifically delegated to the Federal Government will be delegated to the Federal Reserve in loose conjunction with the Treasury Department." Really if we want to give communism a try let us at least be open about it. Amend the constitution to allow these things and officially declare the free market dead in the United States. If that is what the people want then so be it.

    On economic issues there is not a dollar worth of difference between Obama and McCain. Them and congress both shout loudly that they love the free market while giving a reach around to special interests and corporations.

    Vote third party. Oust your incumbent senators and representatives.
     
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  13. CStylen

    CStylen New Member

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    Am I the only US citizen in here? Obviously people which live outside the US do not agree with our principles, or else they would be living here.

    Can we get back to the topic?
     
  14. Evo85

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    The Prophecy has been fulfilled!!
     
  15. btarunr

    btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    We were talking about Government intervention (read: price regulation) on a systemic level, not a personal level. Your privacy is intact.
     
  16. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok ok, right! There does need to be Government intervention, not a Government takeover. Prices need to be set that are fair for the patients and institutions. Right now it's rather one-sided. You should see what a 2 day stay in a hospital costs! I could of flown anywhere in the world and stayed in a five star resort for a week!
     
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  17. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    Whoa whoa whoa -- hold on there. Nobody said anything about communism. Nobody said anything about nationalizing those business.

    Just healthcare. Or, for goodness sakes, at least follow Japan's example with what they've done with their system.

    And, honestly, calling to oust everyone is unrealistic. Try and work within the system, you'll get stuff done quicker. ;)
     
  18. btarunr

    btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    That's what I was getting to. Pricing should be fair (for both the provider and patient) and the regulations should take into account, the buying power of the average American of today. A world-class ICCU sets you back by ~$150 /day, here.
     
  19. proletariandan

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    The usual bullshit argument - anyone would get treated the same in Europe in an emergency situation.

    Here there are no queues because only the wealthy can afford scheduled procedures that many others need but forgo. I've heard reports that even with insurance people are having trouble finding primary-care physicians in the US because it isn't profitable anymore - they're all becoming specialists and making the status of preventative healthcare even worse.

    Perhaps we should invest a few hundred billion dollars in medicine/public hospitals/training doctors instead of bailing out wall-street and increasing the already-bloated military like McCain and Obama want to do.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2008
  20. CStylen

    CStylen New Member

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    How is that not a valid argument? Yes your right they get treated the same as long as you pay first and if you need to make an appointment you better have a couple of months to spare.
     
  21. proletariandan

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    You argue that European healthcare must be bad because people have to wait. Assuming people don't have to wait here (I'll let you do the legwork and find statistics if you want to stand by your argument) that is because everyone isn't covered. If everyone were covered here, there would be longer queues. Not giving people healthcare isn't the solution to queues - better health policies (more hospitals, doctors, education, etc.) are.
     
  22. DaedalusHelios

    DaedalusHelios

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    I waited over four hours to see a doctor in the ER when I couldn't walk because my kidney ruptured from the pressure and put Urine in my fissure(chest cavity). I would assume Europeans get seen faster.
     
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  23. proletariandan

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    All of those things certainly should be nationalized.

    You're correct that our representatives, but more importantly, the workings of our 'democracy' are why nationalization might not be so beneficial. You can't expect a bunch of capitalists with ties to big business to run public entities effectively, especially those that preach market fundamentalism. They will intentionally bankrupt public utilities so that they can say 'OMG COMMUNISM FAILS' and then sell them off to a private entity for a huge profit.
     
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  24. Odin Eidolon

    Odin Eidolon New Member

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    OMG CS, really "obviously people which live outside the US do not agree with our principles, or else they would be living here."??? Well, that sounds quite... better not to tell
    You mean:
    We are americans, we are better, we are different, we have our principles which CANT BE WRONG? Seriously, thats completely wrong. Your last posts...

    From post #196:
    European healthcare is VERY good compared to the one you have. The rich can have even better by paying, while the poor can have a good one. In USA, the rich have a good healthcare, the poors dont. 40% of the people in America cannot afford the healthcare we have FOR FREE. You are about 350millions, right? it makes 140 million people that is in serious danger of life, since they cant be cured.

    Post #201:
    first, capitalism has failed. you can see this. maybe you dont want to admit it, but it is true. i'm not telling you thats the worst system ever, i dont know. simply, it doesnt work.
    The government SHOULD help you. the government should BE the people in your constitution, if something has to be reformed is the connection between the politics and the people, that has been lost since corruption grows limitless.

    post #204:
    You talk of freedom. What is freedom to you? the possibility to do whatever you want? Emmanuel Kant says: a man can be free only if he succeeds in defeating all his selfish insticts.
    I dont think you dont intend freedom to be "doing whatever i want". Tell us whats freedom for you, than you'll be able to use the word FRREDOM without restrains. This is a misused word often.

    post #207:
    the international situation changes every second. There MUST be a government, if there wasnt it would be anarchy, since it has an important stabilizing social role. The system would fall immediately without it.

    post #220:
    you are simply wrong. your statements are simply untrue. Polls and surveys tell you that you healthcare system is one of the worst of the world. Even Cuba's system, as shown in MMoore's last film (dont remember the title) is better. and IM NOT a Michael Moore fan. The fact that maybe you have the money and that you can afford healthcare doesnt mean that your healthcare works. It works for you, it doesnt work at all for 40% of the Americans.
     
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  25. CStylen

    CStylen New Member

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    Ok so we agree when we have a nationalized healthcare where everyone is covered, there will be longer quees. Which is not good either correct? I don't want the government forcing me to have healthcare, where if I don't "enroll" I get punished. Think about the poor people forced to pay extra for our new nationalized healthcare who now can't afford to eat. Plus now they have to wait in line for a 5 min doctor appt. behind the rest of the country.

    More hospitals, doctors and education is useless with insurance companies and drug companies being the main cause for inflated healthcare costs in the US.
     
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