why do video cards cost more than the whole computer?

[Dippyskoodlez]

look at my rig everything in it in total cost less then $200 yet before conroe it was a solid midrange to low highend machine

for dippy
if i can find a 7900GS agp BIOS i will have a 24/8 card and i already can flash mine to 1.5vgpu giving me the ability to as soon as i unlock 8pp/2ROPS overclock to full 7900GTX all this on an ancient agp set up i can have good performance with old cheap tech.

My point exactly.

It doesn't take expensive high end stuff to get a decent overclock.

It takes a little bit of knowledge and skill.

Most of which people demand be spoon fed back to them, in which more expensive products are able to do this for them.

 

[cdawall]

My point exactly.

It doesn't take expensive high end stuff to get a decent overclock.

It takes a little bit of knowledge and skill.

Most of which people demand be spoon fed back to them, in which more expensive products are able to do this for them.

cheap stuff just takes some work to get to run like expensive stuff

and in all this all i got to say is
ti4200

 

[keakar]

Its the Giants of capitalism that control what we spend. They set the P$R$I$C$E$

no its really us the buyers who set the price by deciding when we will buy it.

everything starts out overpriced and is reduced untill the customers start buying it.

no one saw a need for it so Intel couldnt sell the quad cores so.... we got huge price cuts.

within days of this price cut they saw a large demand in orders so prices were increased.

within a few days of this price increase they had no new orders coming in so they cut prices again untill they saw the sales picked up and decided that is what the price should be because that is where they needed to be priced for customers to buy them.

if Intel could have found a way to talk more buyers into overpaying for them in the first place, then prices would not have come down, we would still be paying $800+ for a Q6600.

companies know the buyers will set the price for any new product that comes on the market so they spend a buttload of advertising to try to convince you why you should overpay for it and hope you swallow the BS. once it starts selling it gets to where you want to be better than the other guy so you overpay just to have it and that is where we are today.

all im saying is that every time someone buys a high priced video card it tells them not to drop that cards price into the lower priced range because we are happy to keep paying such a high price for it. what will lower prices for all of us is slow sales of these overpriced cards so it is important to be very selective about what we buy and the price we pay for it. only buying these cards when they are on sale or with rebates and promotions helps lower prices.

am i saying dont buy it? no, do whatever makes you happy but dont tell me i should pay that much and be happy about it and especially dont tell me they need that much money for it because they spend so much on research and developement.

these cards are designed on computers by software programs, not by some guy with a pencil and drafting table. these video cards are manufactured for us by workers who are extremely skillfull and do very good work but are not well paid by anyones standards.

 

[Wile E]

look at my rig everything in it in total cost less then $200 yet before conroe it was a solid midrange to low highend machine

@wile e
would i spend the money to get a 2.6ghz 4000+ for s754 NOPE my $20 3000+ does close enough to that on stock cooling and could go much higher if someone sent me a nforce3 mobo all this and now i have a 3400+ i spent $40 on from AX2 that will easily do 2.64ghz with out throwing my bus speeds outta wack giving me once again a midrange gaming PC

That's the thing. That is your tastes. You are apparently happy just matching the 4000+, but what if you wanted to go beyond that? You would either have to buy better cooling, or the better chip. Often times, buying the better chip is cheaper than a high end cooling system.

Again, people that buy high end stuff, cannot be wrong. It's their money to spend how they see fit. That's like saying somebody is wrong for buying a BMW, when they could've bought a Ford with all the same features, just slower.

 

[Dippyskoodlez]

That's the thing. That is your tastes. You are apparently happy just matching the 4000+, but what if you wanted to go beyond that? You would either have to buy better cooling, or the better chip. Often times, buying the better chip is cheaper than a high end cooling system.

Again, people that buy high end stuff, cannot be wrong. It's their money to spend how they see fit. That's like saying somebody is wrong for buying a BMW, when they could've bought a Ford with all the same features, just slower.

Then theres a premium you pay to get that.

Thats perfectly fine and thats not what we're arguing.

We're arguing because its starting to turn into a "buy the higher one because its a few mhz faster but $200 more" because people have an obsession with mhz these days.

Is there a noticable difference between 2400mhz and 2600mhz? No.

Overclocking has gone from a get the most from your money to get the most mhz for any money.

$1k FX/EE CPU's just prove this.

Idiots buy them.(People tossing on some LN2 to torture them are in a different category)

People overclock them for a few extra mhz.

but my 3700+ gets perfectly competitive framerates.

Worth the cost? Not in any provable way, unless you have money to burn.

Most people around here see LN2 fun as a waste of time.



The point we're making is anyone buying and JUSTIFYING that premium, is going to continue to push that premium UP.

Its going to end in a never ending loop, especially as people are turning overclocking into a market.

Its going to be taken advantage of, people don't care about your interests, they want your money, and you guys hand it over to them NQA.




Overclocking is about getting the most for your money yes, but its gone from squeezing a $200 top end CPU out of a $70 CPU to squeezing a $1k CPU out of a $400 CPU.

The market is perfectly capable of going back to squeezing that $1k CPU out of a $70 cpu, but it won't because people are too lazy to learn what they're doing, so they opt for the "ez guarantee" of an extra 200mhz, and pay that premium.

Overclocking is no longer a hobby, its turned mainstream. and Mainstream is going to inflate the price because everyone wants a piece of the pie with as little work as possible.

 

[Kreij]

... unless you have money to burn.

We like to refer to it as "disposable income".

 

[Wile E]

"Worth the cost" is completely a matter of personal opinion. There is no way to prove or disprove it.

 

[Dippyskoodlez]

"Worth the cost" is completely a matter of personal opinion. There is no way to prove or disprove it.

There is when you can affect the market supply.

If everyone started buying 3200+ cpu's again, we would see a significant increase in the overall 3200+ overclockability.

It may be worth the cost to you, but it is not for me.

You buying that cpu that is "worth the cost" causes problems for me, as it begins to reduce my ability to enjoy the cheaper CPU's.

In turn pushing me further and further away from overclocking.

While the cheaper cpu's start sucking, the higher end, more expensive cpu's begin doing better.

And your wallet starts to get emptier and emptier.

Hope you enjoy it.

 

[Wile E]

There is when you can affect the market supply.

If everyone started buying 3200+ cpu's again, we would see a significant increase in the overall 3200+ overclockability.

It may be worth the cost to you, but it is not for me.

You buying that cpu that is "worth the cost" causes problems for me, as it begins to reduce my ability to enjoy the cheaper CPU's.

In turn pushing me further and further away from overclocking.

While the cheaper cpu's start sucking, the higher end, more expensive cpu's begin doing better.

And your wallet starts to get emptier and emptier.

Hope you enjoy it.

It's fairly apparent that we're never gonna come to an agreement on this. I say we just agree to disagree.

 

[Dippyskoodlez]

It's fairly apparent that we're never gonna come to an agreement on this. I say we just agree to disagree.

Its OK, I'm gonna enjoy making a profit off you people when I become one of the people designing this stuff

 

[Wile E]

Its OK, I'm gonna enjoy making a profit off you people when I become one of the people designing this stuff

lol. My latest cpu only costs $120 new(E4300, not up and running yet. Need to get a new Meanwell psu to run the TEC). I can't afford top end, but would buy it if I could.

 

[HAL7000]

no its really us the buyers who set the price by deciding when we will buy it.

everything starts out overpriced and is reduced untill the customers start buying it.

no one saw a need for it so Intel couldnt sell the quad cores so.... we got huge price cuts.

within days of this price cut they saw a large demand in orders so prices were increased.

within a few days of this price increase they had no new orders coming in so they cut prices again untill they saw the sales picked up and decided that is what the price should be because that is where they needed to be priced for customers to buy them.

if Intel could have found a way to talk more buyers into overpaying for them in the first place, then prices would not have come down, we would still be paying $800+ for a Q6600.

companies know the buyers will set the price for any new product that comes on the market so they spend a buttload of advertising to try to convince you why you should overpay for it and hope you swallow the BS. once it starts selling it gets to where you want to be better than the other guy so you overpay just to have it and that is where we are today.

all im saying is that every time someone buys a high priced video card it tells them not to drop that cards price into the lower priced range because we are happy to keep paying such a high price for it. what will lower prices for all of us is slow sales of these overpriced cards so it is important to be very selective about what we buy and the price we pay for it. only buying these cards when they are on sale or with rebates and promotions helps lower prices.

am i saying dont buy it? no, do whatever makes you happy but dont tell me i should pay that much and be happy about it and especially dont tell me they need that much money for it because they spend so much on research and developement.

these cards are designed on computers by software programs, not by some guy with a pencil and drafting table. these video cards are manufactured for us by workers who are extremely skillfull and do very good work but are not well paid by anyones standards.

I hate to rain on your parade, but it is the companies that will set their prices, then in response to consumer demand they either raise or lower prices. Then competition also plays in, but the consumer does not set prices.
You also can not dismiss product development/ research and production cost. Do you think company employees/management from all ranges make nothing per year in salary? Schooling didn't take a play in cost? Building and updating factories, etc have no play in the cost of production/products? Setting a higher price allows for companies to recoup some of the initial investment in the beginning. I am not trying to argue the point of cost, but have you ever owned or operated your own company/ business? I have and so had my father, and we have never allowed the consumer to set the prices for anything. We respond to demand and availability.

Also I never told you what to spend either. Your conflict is with the companies not anyone here in the forums.
you asked "why do video cards cost more than the whole computer?" People tried to explain both sides of the highway.
I am happy that you are able to get what you want at the prices you look for, but I like to buy the best and move on from there, you see we are agreeing that we pay what we want to pay.

 

[Dippyskoodlez]

I hate to rain on your parade, but it is the companies that will set their prices, then in response to consumer demand they either raise or lower prices. Then competition also plays in, but the consumer does not set prices.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[HeavyH20]

There is when you can affect the market supply.

If everyone started buying 3200+ cpu's again, we would see a significant increase in the overall 3200+ overclockability.

Not sure how you some to that conclusion. How does demand for an item = overclockability??

And, back in the 1700+ days, they were turd processors that had a little extra room. It was not until the AMD 64 processors were released that AMD had anything decent.

BTW, the AMD 3700+ is a very old processor. Three years ago, about this time, it was $710, not $70. The big news was the price drop to $507. We are talking FX-53 ($799) gen CPU's when AMD was finally making a very competitive product. The 3700 may cost you $70 today, but, honestly, that would be too expensive. I have a nice Opteron 146 that does 3.0 Ghz sitting in a box collecting dust. The sun set on that CPU almost 2 years ago. But, it is like a garage sale. Someone else's junk is another's gold mine.

So, I would get off the high horse calling people "idiots" for buying current gen hardware while you are scouring through the junk bin.

 

[driver66]

WOW PWNT

 

[HAL7000]

What the hell are you talking about?

Originally Posted by keakar View Post
no its really us the buyers who set the price by deciding when we will buy it.

This was in reference to this statement.

 

[Dippyskoodlez]

Not sure how you some to that conclusion. How does demand for an item = overclockability??

You make 500 CPU's.

DEMAND: 400 3200+ CPU's
50 Mid range CPU's
40 High end CPUs
10 semprons

BINNING(aka, what you have): 50 High end CPU's
50 mid range CPUs
350 3200+'s
50 Semprons

How are you going to meet demand?
Exactly.

Originally Posted by keakar View Post
no its really us the buyers who set the price by deciding when we will buy it.

This was in reference to this statement.

Read my underlined comments. Read what you wrote. Rethink your comment.
Please.
consumers = demand, prices = demand.

So, I would get off the high horse calling people "idiots" for buying current gen hardware while you are scouring through the junk bin.

I'm sorry, it makes sense to spend $1k on a cpu thats 200mhz faster?

whatever.

I'll buy 3 cheaper ones and find one that outclocks that $1k one and have $$ left over for a few video games, pizza, a few pops/beers and some to take a girl out for a night.

 

[HeavyH20]

And, never forget, profit = progress. If a company could not make money, then they cannot research, develop and market never mind pay anyone to perform a job. And, binning is an admission that the better CPU's are worth the money.

As for the processor speeds, the reason they have headroom for the OC is that they assume a certain thermal environment. Most systems are made with marginal cooling and components, shoved in a corner, and forgotten. Enthusiasts, on the other hand, take the CPU, polish it up, put some good thermal grease and pair it with a really good air cooler, water or even phase. This, in turn, allows the enthusiast to see the real potential of the CPU with improved thermal management. Luck is also a component, since the best CPU's are in the middle cuts on the die.

You do have a point about OC potential with demand, but is has more to do with life cycle of the product. When a CPU is first launched, the best CPU's have the headroom and resultant price. As the product ages and become mainstream, the center cuts are no longer in demand so that the better potential items are released as the bargain products. The mid life cycle is where the good deals lay. For example, the current E6850 can possibly reach 4.0 GHz with some decent cooling. But, again, it has to so with a ramp up of a new product and the current, but soon second tier item, is price dropped to meet mid market demands. The $300 mark is, as I have said earlier, this prime point to buy. The product is new enough to be relevant and the OC capacity is actually expanded. Just ask anyone with a G0 C2D.

 

[Dippyskoodlez]

For example, the current E6850 can possibly reach 4.0 GHz with some decent cooling. But, again, it has to so with a ramp up of a new product and the current, but soon second tier item, is price dropped to meet mid market demands. The $300 mark is, as I have said earlier, this prime point to buy. The product is new enough to be relevant and the OC capacity is actually expanded. Just ask anyone with a G0 C2D.

Yeah, that works, until you factor in yield.

Intel doesn't make exactly what they need. Nor does AMD. Nor does anyone.

Yield changes the entire ball game when demand exceeds yield in certain areas, good and/or bad.

And thats why certain cpu's have become historic(2600+M, 1700+, 1.8 NW, 3200+)

And, binning is an admission that the better CPU's are worth the money.

What? Thats in no way shape or form related.

 

[keakar]

I am not trying to argue the point of cost, but have you ever owned or operated your own company/ business? I have and so had my father, and we have never allowed the consumer to set the prices for anything. We respond to demand and availability.

i ran my own company for 28 years before i retired and yes i charged what i wanted to.

then when i had no customers, i had to lower my prices and slowly raised them to charge "only" what the market would bare (aka what the customer was willing to pay). any buisness that wants to stay in buisness must balance and adjust its prices to fit customers willingness and ability to buy its products. go ahead and double your prices then tell customers they must pay you more just because you think your worth it lol. see how long your charge whatever you want plan works in real life.

you agree with dippy and me about prices being too high and we agree with you that you do get something for all that money you spend but how much that extra is really worth is debatable.

then you go and get defensive about us saying you are overpaying to buy the best lol.

here it is in a nut shell:

paying premium prices drives those prices even higher, slower sales brings the prices down.

our comments were pointing out that people who have "disposable" income pay these high prices and then try to justify it for some reason. if you dont mind overpaying to get the latest gratest thing out there then that is your buisness but it does have the effect of making all the other components follow suit with higher prices.

 

[keakar]

i'm getting flashbacks of movie stars and actors in hollywood complaining about not paying enough taxes lol.

anyone who really feels that intel will lose money if they dont charge us $700 for a video card should just go ahead and mail them a check so they don't go out of buisness lol.

 

[HeavyH20]

Overpriced is not a fair term unless it is well over MSRP and is more or less a retail gouge. Intel pricing is unwaivered. The market is really run by the retailers. NewEgg is a prime example of taking advantage of demand. I will never pay above MSRP. Back, last October, when NewEgg was asking $1499 for the QX6700, I got mine for $999 from Amazon of all places. It has paid for itself, however, in the form of a nice, new Dell 30 inch LCD

Yields improve profitability and lower unit costs. No rocket science there. And, again, once the product reaches mid life, yields are better, as well. But, even with that, I feel for AMD with all it's nice last gen are items selling for $250, tops, and losing market and money at an alarming rate. Hope they have a good product coming along to improve their bottom line aside from the money suing Intel. Yup, it's Intel's fault for releasing the C2D and killing AMD.

As for taxes, just remember, that the top 1% of income earners in the US pay 25% of the bill. The rest of us 99% pick up the other 75%. Not sure how any of this relates to taxes, however.

And, speed binning helps ensure that the premium products deliver. I played the second tier game looking for the good clocker. AMD 3200, X2's, Opterons, etc. All come close, but I was always back 400 Mhz from the top chip. So, instead of putzing around looking for the diamond in the coal bin, I decided to go to the diamond dealer and pay the price. No regrets. I still have a top 20 result in 3DMark06 with a result I posted back in February. Benchmarks are not the end all be all, but it highlights the level the system delivers, since last October. I have a couple of the new G0 "value" CPU's and they still do not come close to the older rev Extreme chip.

I say that investing time in a skill that will net you income is time better spent than improving your OC skills. Make more money !

As Ferris Bueller is quoted, "It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up."

 

[WarEagleAU]

they are really overpriced, but they pay the support folks, designers, manufacturing folks, etc good money, they also factor in overhead with the prices. truth be told, it probably only costs like 150 bucks USD at most for the whole card, but they tack on fees for everything from designers and such....in the end it can costs 4 times what it originally cost to manufacture it with the parts bought.

 

[Mussels]

i'm getting flashbacks of movie stars and actors in hollywood complaining about not paying enough taxes lol.

anyone who really feels that intel will lose money if they dont charge us $700 for a video card should just go ahead and mail them a check so they don't go out of buisness lol.

since when do intel make $700 video cards?
Since you started this thread, it'd be nice if you at least knew what you were talking about.



And really, the profit on those video cards is minor, if EVGA make a GTX or a 7100gs, in the end its the same profit - $2-$3 per card, sold in bulk. Thats how they make more money on the lower end segment, since they sell heaps of them. Any 'bulk' manufacturer sells things slightly above cost price, in order to remain competitive (Or, they find ways to make the product worth a higher price, pre-OC'd cards etc)

 

[HAL7000]

i ran my own company for 28 years before i retired and yes i charged what i wanted to.

then when i had no customers, i had to lower my prices and slowly raised them to charge "only" what the market would bare (aka what the customer was willing to pay). any buisness that wants to stay in buisness must balance and adjust its prices to fit customers willingness and ability to buy its products. go ahead and double your prices then tell customers they must pay you more just because you think your worth it lol. see how long your charge whatever you want plan works in real life.

you agree with dippy and me about prices being too high and we agree with you that you do get something for all that money you spend but how much that extra is really worth is debatable.

then you go and get defensive about us saying you are overpaying to buy the best lol.

here it is in a nut shell:

paying premium prices drives those prices even higher, slower sales brings the prices down.

our comments were pointing out that people who have "disposable" income pay these high prices and then try to justify it for some reason. if you dont mind overpaying to get the latest gratest thing out there then that is your buisness but it does have the effect of making all the other components follow suit with higher prices.

keakar,
I am not defensive at all, and I am sure you were not offensive,,,,

I understand your point, initially companies set prices, then adjusted the price accordingly based on the market. We are saying the same thing. What either of us is willing to pay matters not, because prices always fall in this industry due to the release of newer and better. Timing determines what price we are willing to spend.



Quote from Dippysdoodlez:
This was in reference to this statement.
Read my underlined comments. Read what you wrote. Rethink your comment.
Please.
consumers = demand, prices = demand.


This is what I said....it is the companies that will set their prices, then in response to consumer demand they either raise or lower prices. Then competition also plays in, but the consumer does not set prices.

cost+production=price+consumer demand+competition= adjusted price

I don't need to rethink it, taking it apart as you have it does not translate what I originally expressed. Thanks for pointing out that i need to make sure that I am quoted properly,
By the way, not to be off topic, when do you leave to enter in the NG?