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Windows 8 a Catastrophe, Want Linux to Thrive: Gabe Newell

Discussion in 'News' started by btarunr, Jul 26, 2012.

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Do you agree with Gabe?

  1. Yes

    88 vote(s)
    75.9%
  2. No

    28 vote(s)
    24.1%
  1. Wrigleyvillain

    Wrigleyvillain PTFO or GTFO

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    Of course market share concern (and perhaps Steam box too) is a part of this but Gaben and Valve have never come across as greedy in any way. It's easier when you have no shareholders you must please, but still....

    While I agree with Kurgan re the new UI it's still funny to hear people say it looks pre-schooly or "like a kid made it" cause thats exactly what people said about Windows XP at first. Though, yeah, this is on a whole different level, so to speak.

    And as for a "bad" Valve game...I don't know...remember Ricochet?
  2. semantics

    semantics

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    gabe just fears more people going into the distro business, esp in RT windows 8 where it's unlikely "indie" devs will be willing to choose steam over the default windows store. Yeah steam is so great, it doesn't even have the ability to throttle download traffic so you can watch movies and share your Internet with your roommates, instead you're forced to pause dl's and updates to when it's convenient like when you're asleep.

    He wants linux for better profit margins, but anyone who thinks windows is hurting gaming industry obviously never heard of directx or the direct X-box and xbox 360.

    Outside of that people just have to realize that metro style was thought up based on activity data they gathered, and how little people actually use the start button in windows 7 instead they pin programs most of the time so if you just make the start bar the size of the desktop and pin everything in the center you get metro. Add a few capability things to replace things like notification icons and you're solid.
  3. Ravenas

    Ravenas

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    How is DirectX helping gamers in any sense? DirectX is locking gamers in to Windows. This is similar in nature to how ActiveX locks users in to IE.

    DirectX makes it easy to port from PC to Xbox 360 and vise versa, but it would be no different if it were OpenGL.

    Microsoft doesn't support OpenGL because it is open and they don't want their customers and OEMs jumping ship every time the market share of another company's OS begins to rise.
    baggpipes says thanks.
  4. james888

    james888

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    When I saw this my first thought was that... well... I was first. Doesn't matter though. Decentralized gaming I hope is the future
    Crunching for Team TPU
  5. MxPhenom 216

    MxPhenom 216 Corsair Fanboy

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    Windows 8 isn't that bad. I think its blown up to be a bigger fail then it really will be. I think that right away it will not be widely adopted on the desktop environment, but in terms of Tablets and Phones, it is a pretty amazing OS.
  6. Syborfical New Member

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    Windows * brings SFA to the PC platform

    IMO the default GUI is a retarded backwards step.
    In vista and 7 aero is the first thing I turn off. I just like a win95 style start bar and its been that way since win 95.

    Windows Vista was a steaming Pile.
    Windows 7 was an epic improvement.

    What does windows 8 bring to the table?...
  7. james888

    james888

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    I didn't have a problem with vista. I liked 7 a lot. 8 does bring a lot to the table. Better security, less resources used, better/faster file transfer system. Really the core of windows 8 is much better. Its the fluff that sucks. Vista/7 fluff could be turned off easily with out changing a thing on usability of the system.

    I for one am sticking to 7.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  8. Ravenas

    Ravenas

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    That is debatable.

    Microsoft is claiming their "Surface" tablet is not to compete with their OEM vendors, but merely a design that others should follow. Thus your experience is going to based on your hardware running the software. Furthermore, the adoption rate of Windows 8 tablets will be severely hindered due to Apple and Google releasing $200 tablets. Microsoft won't even be able to sell the Windows RT version at that price. The tablet market is getting bloated (at high and low price ranges) and Microsoft is late to the game yet again.
  9. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    who cares really i dislike Win 8, love the performance tweaks hate the GUI, they locked out the ability to switch back to the old Win 7 interface that was a big F U to me,

    as for Games Linux actually stands a chance lets take a quick look

    what do most mobile computing devices use? Open GL ES 1.0 and ES 2.0
    that means Tablets, Smartphones, ARM based devices all use Open GL,

    Nintendo Wii, Wii U are Open GL
    Playstation 3 is Open GL
    Playstation 4 or W.e is Open GL

    Id Tech Game Engine = Open GL
    Unreal Engine supports Open GL
    Source Engine supports Open GL
    Unigen Engine supports Open GL
    Most professional Applications use Open GL

    Was talking with Mussels about this earlier,

    PS3 Open GL ES 2.0 or in reality Sonys bastardised version has Shader Model 2.0 like effects, and abilities and we can see what a PS3 can put out examples Metal Gear Solid, Uncharted, Killzone etc

    Valve moving to Linux is probably more related to Steam Box or something similar but effectively there is 0 reason for Linux to not have support for games, as it stands Open GL 4.1 allows for Open GL ES 2.0 to work together aka they are compatible finally Open GL ES 2.0 came out in 2007 as a standard, it wasnt untill Open GL 4.1 came about that Desktop users could run Open GL ES 2.0 apps, hilariously enough AMD GPUs support Open GL ES 2.0 as is,

    This means todays desktop GPUs with Open GL 4.1 support could in theory run PS3 ports etc, and AMD already having Open GL ES 2.0 could give them an edge in support. This kinda gives the AMD / Valve combo a bit of an upside well sort of AMD Open GL support is spotty at best in professional apps altho game support seems to be fine, but it depends on what your looking at. Regardless Valve has the software side covered, AMD looks to be along with Dell's Alienware brand as hardware / oem support, now add in an unrestricted OS with no limitation or cost for use.

    In terms of the way things are looking PS3 / PS4 to linux ports are possible much like Xbox 360 to PC was, as it stands any Mac compatible game should be easily ported to linux as well.

    Examples of Mac games that should be easy to port to Linux

    Left 4 Dead 2
    Civilization V
    Counter Strike
    Amnesia The Dark Descent
    Star Wars The Force Unleashed
    Crusader Kings II
    Grand Thef Auto Vice City
    Grand Theft Auto San Andreas
    Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic
    Trine 2
    Trine
    Half Life 2
    Assassins Creed Brotherhood
    Assassins Creed II
    The Witcher
    Killing Floor
    The Darkness II
    Driver San Francisco
    Dear Esther
    Torchlight
    Civilization IV
    Blades of Time
    Serious Sam 3 BFE
    Tom Clancy Splinter Cell Conviction
    RUSE
    Two Worlds II
    Duke Nukem Forever

    385 games that are Mac Compatible,

    thats 385 games that could quickly be ported over, add in Open GL's usage in the mobile market is extreme well you can start to see the picture.

    Now add in the fact that Valve is potentially worth MORE than AMD at this point (supposedly valued around $3 Billion), it doesnt seem all that far fetched that with AMD as one of their premier partners Dell as an OEM, that they had this planned. Valve has been making strategic partnerships for some time, so steam box could be a reality altho less an actually system and more an Ideal as it were.

    as it stands a Linux based gaming system means free OS, free OS means $100 towards better parts in theory raising the minimum spec builds because of OS cost being taken out.

    Overall Gabe does have issues expressing himself but should he succeed i would gladly switch to Linux for gaming, Open GL or Direct X matters not to me both can achieve the same graphics fidelity, and in fact Open GL has the greater possible audience as of Open GL ES 2.0 and Open GL 4.1. Desktops both Mac, Linux, Windows support Open GL, iPhone, iPad, other tablets ARM based devices Windows RT all make use of Open GL ES 1.0 2.0 etc etc, with combined functionality and almost ALL of todays game engines supporting Open GL is some form, its really not that hard to see what Gabe is pushing for, support for most of it is already there it just requires a push.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  10. mandis New Member

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    AGREED! I've used/built PCs for the last 22 years and to me Valve has been the one reason for being enthusiastic about the platform. Originally through their AWESOME games and more recently through their web store they've made the PC the great gaming/developing platform that it is today.

    In my opinion, Microsoft is somewhat blind to all of this! They showed a complete disregard for PC Gamers when they released the XBOX and that showed when many years later they halfheartedly ported Halo to the PC. Now they are trying to copy Apple and Google by releasing their own store. In their manic bloodthirsty pursuit for control (money) they are hurting their own platform!

    As far as Linux is concerned, I like it!! But it doesn't seem to like my nvidia sli setup... :ohwell:
  11. mandis New Member

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    You seem to be confusing GRAPHIC ENGINES to GAME DEVELOPMENT ENGINES. openGL is only a graphics API and not an SDK by itself. So NO! porting games from RISC (PPC/ARM) to SISC and vise versa is still going to take a lot of effort from developers...

    I know of an engine called UNITY 3D that supposedly does it but the outcome is usually far from optimal.
  12. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    uh Unreal Engine, its base code is mainly unchanged between platform, doesnt matter if its PPC or X86 etc, it still runs Open GL regardless,

    so no im not confusing anything

    the GAME engine is Id tech 5 for example
    Call of Duty is running on a modified Id Tech 3,
    Source Engine runs on a modified Id Tech 3 i believe if i remember right
    Unreal Engine has to have support for Open GL and both code paths again PS3 / 360, Mac OS X / Windows

    so no in reality the Engine thats take the basic model and texture information and display it while handling physics AI as well have the code paths already for Direct X and Open GL, otherwise you wouldnt see the games on all systems,

    I know the difference in API as well,

    Simple fact IS

    Open GL ES 2.0 is the standard for ARM and Mobile Devices,
    Open GL ES 1.0 and 2.0 were bastardised in the use of the PS3,
    Open GL ES 1.0 and 2.0 from what i remember are used in the Wii and Wii U

    only one console uses Direct X, yes current consoles are Power PC based, but then if its so different why do essentially Xbox code run perfectly fine on PC, anyone remember Dead Island where the 360 version was essentially used as the PC version and it got pulled, but worked just fine?

    doesnt matter much all these code paths are there for the most part, It has to be, otherwise the engines couldnt be used, ARM is not PPC, PPC is not x86 but Unreal Engine works across all without issue same goes for many other game engines.

    Essentially these APIs get called various names but essentially

    Wii, Wii U, PS3, PS4, ARM, all make use of Open GL in some form or another, do to Open GL ES 2.0 and 4.1 offering programmable pipeline they can be customized, but in the end

    OpenGL 4.1

    Released on 26 July 2010[32]
    Supported Cards: Nvidia GeForce 400 series, Nvidia GeForce 500 series, ATI Radeon HD 5000 series, AMD Radeon HD 6000 Series, AMD Radeon HD 7000 Series

    This new version adds these additional features to the specification, many of which help bring it in line with those in Direct3D 11:
    OpenGL Shading language (GLSL) 4.1
    Full compatibility with OpenGL for Embedded Systems (OpenGL ES) 2.0 APIs
    Reduced shaders compilation times with the ability to query and load a binary for shader program objects
    The ability to bind programs individually to the five programmable stages (Vertex, Tessellation Control, Tessellation Evaluation, Geometry, and Fragment)
    Improvements to the general 64-bit floating point supported added in OpenGL 4.0 (64-bit floating-point component input for vertex shader)

    Essentially this means as of Open GL 4.1 support for Open GL ES 2.0 based APIs is possible on desktops Open GL is no on version 4.2 which supports Tessellation etc,

    the API essentially now offers broader support across nearly every possible platform in one way or another

    In terms of abilities Open GL ES 2.0 = Open GL 2.0
    They were seperate however for a great deal of time, the newest revision change this, essentially their are many off shoots but its not unlike Direct X in terms of 9, 10 or 11 where different functionalities exist for different hardware. Considering again most GAME ENGINES have support for Open GL due to the other platforms its not that much different, and considering the Mac OSX game support is continuing to grow and makes use of the same API and functions Linux does, its not that big a stretch, the major issue is kernel support etc among various Linux builds which is why Valve is sticking to one distro right now and it just so happens to be the most popular Distro in use by consumers.

    In reality Open GL is actually easier to code for, HOWEVER its harder for Hardware vendors to write a good performing DRIVER for it,

    Essentially both APIs can accomplish the same thing each offers a different advantage.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
    james888 says thanks.
  13. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Banstick Dummy

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  14. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    yea mailman, if a Dice game is running on a PS3, same with Call of Duty the engine still has Open GL functionality, it has to otherwise well the games wouldnt work on that console :roll:

    the PS3's proprietary API uses an Open GL wrapper, thus uses Open GL calls to render out the image, essentially its a bastardized version of Open GL,

    its irrelevent about industry standard because it IS industry standard, just not on PC,

    if the games on Wii U, and PS3, it uses Open GL if its on Xbox of w.e kind its Direct X,

    granted we can see the shortcomings Open GL has granted carmack blamed driver problems on AMD / Nvidia for RAGE's bad PC support but, thats more do to the fact Open GL is again harder for hardware vendors to write drivers for, this is why it has a bigger console share, its 1 set of hardware write a driver and then leave it alone, everyone uses that base config, if that can be ironed out then there is no reason Open GL cant be used,

    It is true DX11 effects would have to be recoded from scratch since write now they are not in parity in terms of code in game engines, aka because its a PC only feature currently that much is true.

    so no game engines except Unigine Engine, has Open GL features similar to Direct X 11,

    that said Unreal, Id Tech, Source are all capable of DX9 / 10 functionality in Open GL if need be.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  15. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Banstick Dummy

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    Yeah and the quality of those graphics is impeccable :rolleyes:. NVIDIA and MS dump a ton of cash into development houses. Until that stops DX is gonna have the best graphics and best support.
  16. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    Gabe is a noob if he thinks he can convert windows users to linux its laughable really
  17. james888

    james888

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    I would gladly go to linux if the games I played were there also. Most games I play right now could easily go to linux. Ns2, in my sig, wouldn't do it unless steam went to linux. Since steam is on linux, the will have a linux version.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  18. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    theres also the thing that Valve tends to sell you a game and it works on any platform its released on oh hye you bought Civ IV on Windows heres your Mac Version Free, oh hey you own all Valve titles heres your Mac version free oh you boughty PS3 version of Portal 2 heres your PC version lol. you get the idea should they move to Linux or get game develeopers to move to it, you see users gain games for that platform for nothing really.

    very true mailman very very true, but are you gonna tell me Metal Gear Solid 4, Uncharted Drakes Fortune, dont look amazing using Open GL? lol it can be done, but i digress in terms of multi plat Open GL versions tend to be inferior, and it does all come down to money, but thats why its rather interesting to see AMD partnered with Valve, and them pushing for Linux, while also having contracts for all the next generation consoles, which should see Open GL again reach parity with Direct X once game engines are recoded to handle their Open GL implementations. never said it was going to be an overnight sensation, But its entirely possible that Valve can pull this off, The thing is getting it all in motion before next set of consoles hit.

    But i digress Direct X is the mainstay, good examples where it proves to be superior,

    Skyrim
    Mass Effect Series (360 = 30fps PS3 = 20-22FPS)
    to name a couple, so yea currently developers havent had much reason to utilize Open GL on WIndows PC, i mean hell when Dead Islan can screw up and run 360 code and still work it kinda shows you how similar it really is lol to PC in terms of the 360.

    But with a move to Linux, third party titles from the PS3 / PS4 could be moved over to linux easier then say a 360 game or xbox next or w.e Microsoft wants to call it, its not really so much about API, Game Engine or support, its about Developers and what their return on investment will be, if they make a PC version do they make 1 good Windows version a mediocre Mac / Windows version or a less then adequate Mac / Linux / Windows version, essentially more platforms means more work, and while its possible it requires Valve to show Developers there is a market there that wants those titles, and will make the coding for it worth while. The interesting thing about that is once the coding is done, it becomes much much easier from then on its getting that initial investment of time and money spent on getting it working properlry that developers are gonna have issues with, and even then i think its less developers and more about Publishers and the we need you to pump out a game every year mentality.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  19. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Banstick Dummy

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    The only reason Gabe said anything is to promote the Steambox. That's it. He see Windows 8 as a competitor to Steam even without the Steambox for that matter. MS is doing exactly what Apple has been doing for years yet Gabe was so proud to release Steam on OSX. Really? But MS is evil? Come on dude this is just marketing rhetoric.

    Oh sure because AMD is legendary in their awesome support for OpenGL.
    Frick says thanks.
  20. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    windows will always be the most popular *desktop* os... no need to fight it, stay on the good side.

    windows has the most compatbility, linux is for mainly programmers it will NEVER be as user friendly as mac or windows... NEVER lol
  21. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    again never said easy or over night also never said it WASNT marketing rhetoric, Valve sees and opportunity and like any business they will exploit it thats business 101.

    Im just saying its possible to make it work on Linux and make it a viable gaming platform, and that its really not THAT hard to do so, its just like we both know it comes down to MONEY, and RETURN ON INVESTMENT, will developers go for it or not? Valve seems to think so, and considering Valve being private owned is now worth more than AMD, im willing to bet Valve will make money off this hand over fist in some way shape or form.

    I dont care if they do, i think it would still be awesome to have the option to play games on Linux, which is just an install and go no dicking around with Wine lol. And i also agree its about Steambox

    why wouldnt they push for Linux? its fucking FREE, slap Linux on Steambox you get a console with a functional OS and you didnt have to pay for the OS
    we all know its a just a PC with a different name

    so $500 Steambox (pulling the number out of my ass here) what looks better to Valve and developers

    $500 for parts or $400 for Parts $100 for OS, in this situation Steambox with Linux offers more bang for buck hardware wise, this is just a really simple look at it however.

    I dont expect this Linux Valve marriage of Awesome with Terrible AMD open GL support to go anywhere fast, but in a couple years time, it will have gained some traction.
  22. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    Fun Fact: Sinbad the comedian is a Mac User since his first appearance at MacWorld in 85

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFUwKJa0JbY <-- hilarious video for pc/mac users, i dont really like mac but i still love sinbad comedy so its ok haha
  23. james888

    james888

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    Since when are you omniscient? You can see the future and that windows will always be king. It will be replaced someday, not anytime soon, but someday. Everything does.

    I like windows, I really do. But I could even be happy with a hackintosh. I don't have a favorite os, I just need something that works. The thing that I like about linux is that it is free, open, and does all the same things. Linux in my opinion can be just as good as windows. The only thing keeping me, and a lot of people, is the compatibility. What is stopping me from a total conversion is games and my laptops finger print scanner. Man I love that scanner. Great for when I just woke up and can't see my keyboard because my eyes are so blurry. I really hope gaming on linux gains momentum, even if I don't use it, I just like the ability to game on linux available.

    When did you last try linux? Depending on which linux, it can be uber user friendly. If my grandmother, who happens to think google is the internet, can use linux mint without ever calling me for help... it is pretty darn user friendly.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  24. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    lol it doesnt matter what linux you use... windows will be more user friendly... extracting and executing files is MUCH simplier on windows than linux thats just a fact...

    look noone can convert me to linux or mac.. ive been using windows since 2002 and mac from 1998-2001 got tired of the G3 freezing there is nothing a linux user can do that i cant for what i need to get done, and I'm! a programmer lol.. noone needs linux for any reason, i dont even use linux for my game server and web server, so really.. the hype over anything other than windows is trash and useless
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  25. Bjorn_Of_Iceland

    Bjorn_Of_Iceland

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    Man.. Gabe Newell's facade looks so degraded nowadays.. compared to that corporate demeanor I saw back in 1999. Not a bad thing though XD.

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