Wednesday, May 19th 2010

Mitsubishi Intros 120 Hz Interpolated Full HD Monitor

Mitsubishi's latest display boast of an industry first in double-speed interpolation, a technique of combining 60 Hz images for a more fluid 120 Hz output. The RDT232WM-Z which carries this feature, is a 23-inch TN panel monitor with 1920 x 1080 pixels resolution, 3 ms response time, 1000:1 contrast ratio, 3W stereo speakers, and inputs which include DVI, D-Sub, and HDMI as display connectivity. It will be available in the Japanese market from June 11.

Source: TechConnect Magazine
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44 Comments on Mitsubishi Intros 120 Hz Interpolated Full HD Monitor

#1
Wile E
Power User
Tn. Meh. I want to see IPS getting to these speeds. Yeah, Tn is fast, but the reduction in image quality just isn't worth it to me.
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#2
Mussels
Moderprator
first?

i found things saying my samsung does the exact same thing (120Hz panel, but only 60Hz inputs so it doubles internally)
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#3
HossHuge
Wile E said:
Tn. Meh. I want to see IPS getting to these speeds. Yeah, Tn is fast, but the reduction in image quality just isn't worth it to me.
I really hate Tn monitors. I'm glad to see more IPS stuff coming out in these recent months.
Tn. Meh. I want to see IPS getting to these speeds. Yeah, Tn is fast, but the reduction in image quality just isn't worth it to me.
Ok, we get it, you don't like TN panels. I think for most poeple the image quailty isn't more than twice as good, like the price is.

Anyways, providing a remote for a bigger monitor is a nice touch. More companies should do it.
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#4
Marineborn
a 23 inch of that quality show have a response time of atleast 2-2.5ms's, i use a 32 inch sharp tv that has a 2.5Ms response time come on mitsu
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#5
HookeyStreet
Eat, sleep, game!
It looks the part...........but I will always favour LG or Samsung when it comes to LCD TVs/Monitors.
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#6
Mistral
If I understand the specs correctly, this is highly disappointing and I hope it doesn't start a trend.

We already have TV's that only accept 60Hz and interpolate to 120Hz/240Hz. Having that on a PC screen is more or less useless for anything but bargaining rights and watching certain movies. It's a technique that might reduce ghosting and add to sharpness, but increases everyone's favourite "input lag" too.
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#7
qubit
Overclocked quantum bit
A faux 120Hz computer monitor. Just what we all need! :rolleyes:

What's wrong with the real thing?
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#9
pr0n Inspector
This is full of fail. 60fps to 120fps? The juddering is already there, ingenious engineers at Mitsubishi.
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#10
Mussels
Moderprator
pr0n Inspector said:
This is full of fail. 60fps to 120fps? The juddering is already there, ingenious engineers at Mitsubishi.
no, 60Hz to 120Hz. FPS is not involved.
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#11
qubit
Overclocked quantum bit
Mussels said:
no, 60Hz to 120Hz. FPS is not involved.
Pr0n is thinking of the judder you see when watching movies at 24fps adjusted to play on a 60Hz display. Interpolating to 120Hz won't make a blind bit of difference here.

Watching 60Hz video however, will look nice and smooth, because of the interpolation from 60 to 120.
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#12
Wile E
Power User
HossHuge said:
Ok, we get it, you don't like TN panels. I think for most poeple the image quailty isn't more than twice as good, like the price is.

Anyways, providing a remote for a bigger monitor is a nice touch. More companies should do it.
No I don't and I will continue to post my opinion on the matter in every press release I see with Tn-film monitors to show people there are other alternatives, and they should do research on the different types of LCD panels, to see which is the best fit for them.

Marineborn said:
a 23 inch of that quality show have a response time of atleast 2-2.5ms's, i use a 32 inch sharp tv that has a 2.5Ms response time come on mitsu
No it doesn't. Those response figures are exaggerations, and only achieved under very specific circumstances.

qubit said:
Pr0n is thinking of the judder you see when watching movies at 24fps adjusted to play on a 60Hz display. Interpolating to 120Hz won't make a blind bit of difference here.

Watching 60Hz video however, will look nice and smooth, because of the interpolation from 60 to 120.
Sure it will make a difference. On a 60Hz screen, a single frame has to be repeated 2.5 times to achieve smooth playback. Not possible, so the jitter comes from repeating one frame 3 times, then only repeating the next frame twice.

On a 120Hz, each frame is repeated 5 times and playback of the non-native format is smoother. That's why 120 and 240hz TVs don't have the 24 frame jitter.

Still, if it can output 120hz, why not just accept 120hz inputs?
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#14
pr0n Inspector
Wile E said:
No I don't and I will continue to post my opinion on the matter in every press release I see with Tn-film monitors to show people there are other alternatives, and they should do research on the different types of LCD panels, to see which is the best fit for them.



No it doesn't. Those response figures are exaggerations, and only achieved under very specific circumstances.



Sure it will make a difference. On a 60Hz screen, a single frame has to be repeated 2.5 times to achieve smooth playback. Not possible, so the jitter comes from repeating one frame 3 times, then only repeating the next frame twice.

On a 120Hz, each frame is repeated 5 times and playback of the non-native format is smoother. That's why 120 and 240hz TVs don't have the 24 frame jitter.

Still, if it can output 120hz, why not just accept 120hz inputs?
As you have noticed, since it does not take 120hz input(like all those fake 120hz TVs), all the advantages of 120hz are practically lost. theoretically they can analyzed the signal to reverse the 3:2 pull-down, but I do not believe something that advanced is inside a monitor.
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#15
Wile E
Power User
pr0n Inspector said:
As you have noticed, since it does not take 120hz input(like all those fake 120hz TVs), all the advantages of 120hz are practically lost. theoretically they can analyzed the signal to reverse the 3:2 pull-down, but I do not believe something that advanced is inside a monitor.
Yeah, they do have the "pulldown" type tech in these monitors. It's exactly how they work.

But as I said, if it outputs 120Hz, it should just accept 120hz input as well. Doesn't make sense to accept only 60hz input on a 120hz computer monitor.
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#16
pr0n Inspector
Wile E said:
Yeah, they do have the "pulldown" type tech in these monitors. It's exactly how they work.

But as I said, if it outputs 120Hz, it should just accept 120hz input as well. Doesn't make sense to accept only 60hz input on a 120hz computer monitor.
I highly doubt they can analyzed the input without knowing anything about it. unlike IVTC performed by software or hardware on video streams, there's no information whatsoever about what is being sent to the monitor. is it a video? is it a picture? what about a video playing in a window that is being drag around?
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#17
Wile E
Power User
pr0n Inspector said:
I highly doubt they can analyzed the input without knowing anything about it. unlike IVTC performed by software or hardware on video streams, there's no information whatsoever about what is being sent to the monitor. is it a video? is it a picture? what about a video playing in a window that is being drag around?
Doesn't need to analyze to know the framerate coming in. That's very simple. It knows it's getting a 24fps signal, it plays each frame 5 times. It only ever has to know the signal coming into the monitor.

If you have your output set to 60hz while watching a movie, you will get jitters, as they are already in the signal going to the monitor. If you set your output to 24hz, like the standard setting on a BD player, you don't get jitters.

Although, I think we are talking about 2 different things here.
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#18
pr0n Inspector
Wile E said:
Doesn't need to analyze to know the framerate coming in. That's very simple. It knows it's getting a 24fps signal, it plays each frame 5 times. It only ever has to know the signal coming into the monitor.

If you have your output set to 60hz while watching a movie, you will get jitters, as they are already in the signal going to the monitor. If you set your output to 24hz, like the standard setting on a BD player, you don't get jitters.

Although, I think we are talking about 2 different things here.
Most computer monitors only takes 60hz, with a few 120hz 3d ones. They do not take 24hz input. if this one does, Mitsubishi won't need to advertise their "double-speed interpolation, a technique of combining 60 Hz images for a more fluid 120 Hz output".
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#19
Wile E
Power User
pr0n Inspector said:
Most computer monitors only takes 60hz, with a few 120hz 3d ones. They do not take 24hz input. if this one does, Mitsubishi won't need to advertise their "double-speed interpolation, a technique of combining 60 Hz images for a more fluid 120 Hz output".
Mine accepts 24hz. It just looks choppy, due to the aforementioned pulldown issues. In fact, every monitor I've owned accepts it, it just doesn't perform correctly. On this monitor, that wouldn't be the case. It should perform correctly.
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#20
pr0n Inspector
Wile E said:
Mine accepts 24hz. It just looks choppy, due to the aforementioned pulldown issues. In fact, every monitor I've owned accepts it, it just doesn't perform correctly. On this monitor, that wouldn't be the case. It should perform correctly.
if your video card is actually outputing at 24hz, everything would be extremely choppy due to the very low frame counts, not just videos.
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#21
qubit
Overclocked quantum bit
Wile E said:
Sure it will make a difference. On a 60Hz screen, a single frame has to be repeated 2.5 times to achieve smooth playback. Not possible, so the jitter comes from repeating one frame 3 times, then only repeating the next frame twice.

On a 120Hz, each frame is repeated 5 times and playback of the non-native format is smoother. That's why 120 and 240hz TVs don't have the 24 frame jitter.
All that does is make the judder uniform. Repeating a frame is very, very visible to the eye and looks crap. Doing it 5 times for a 120Hz display won't make a blind bit of difference. The picture is literally moving one, stopping for a bit and then moving again. This stop-go motion is highly visible and objectionable.

Here in the UK, we use a 50Hz/fps PAL video system. A 24fps film is played back at 25fps, which results in every frame being shown twice. This leads to very visible judder and looks very unpleasant. Some TVs have the frame interpolation function, making the film motion look smooth like on 50Hz video. Because the TV has to guess how the inbetween frames should look, frame interpolation works to varying degrees of success and can easily cause its own artifacts.

Also, I happen to be able to prove this at home. My DVR can play back smoothly at double speed (without sound). Do that with film and the judder disappears completely, as it's being shown only once. The motion is silky smooth and has no unpleasant artifacts.

Why they still insist on using cruddy old 24 or 25fps film for modern made-for-TV productions beats me. :banghead:

pr0n Inspector said:
if your video card is actually outputing at 24hz, everything would be extremely choppy due to the very low frame counts, not just videos.
+1
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#22
Mussels
Moderprator
Wile E said:
Mine accepts 24hz. It just looks choppy, due to the aforementioned pulldown issues. In fact, every monitor I've owned accepts it, it just doesn't perform correctly. On this monitor, that wouldn't be the case. It should perform correctly.
indeed.


there is a very big difference between running at 24Hz, and running at 60Hz with a 24FPS image.
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#23
pr0n Inspector
video -> output device -> monitor -> panel

most common situation 24 - 60 - 60 - 60
what this monitor would be most likely doing 24 - 60 - 60 - 120
what Wile E think his monitors are doing 24 - 24 - 60 - 60
what 120hz 24p TVs are doing 24 - 24 -120 - 120
Posted on Reply
#24
qubit
Overclocked quantum bit
Mussels said:
indeed.


there is a very big difference between running at 24Hz, and running at 60Hz with a 24FPS image.
Yes, quite - a 24Hz flicker on a CRT would be a 'delight'. :laugh:
Posted on Reply
#25
Wile E
Power User
pr0n Inspector said:
if your video card is actually outputing at 24hz, everything would be extremely choppy due to the very low frame counts, not just videos.
No, videos aren't choppy at 24fps, unless you run into pulldown issues. Movies have natural motion blur. You can't directly compare movies and games in terms of framerate.

qubit said:
Yes, quite - a 24Hz flicker on a CRT would be a 'delight'. :laugh:
Every movie you have watched on a tube TV has been under 30fps. Movies and games are very different. There is no choppiness in a 24 or 30fps video.

qubit said:
All that does is make the judder uniform. Repeating a frame is very, very visible to the eye and looks crap. Doing it 5 times for a 120Hz display won't make a blind bit of difference. The picture is literally moving one, stopping for a bit and then moving again. This stop-go motion is highly visible and objectionable.

Here in the UK, we use a 50Hz/fps PAL video system. A 24fps film is played back at 25fps, which results in every frame being shown twice. This leads to very visible judder and looks very unpleasant. Some TVs have the frame interpolation function, making the film motion look smooth like on 50Hz video. Because the TV has to guess how the inbetween frames should look, frame interpolation works to varying degrees of success and can easily cause its own artifacts.

Also, I happen to be able to prove this at home. My DVR can play back smoothly at double speed (without sound). Do that with film and the judder disappears completely, as it's being shown only once. The motion is silky smooth and has no unpleasant artifacts.

Why they still insist on using cruddy old 24 or 25fps film for modern made-for-TV productions beats me. :banghead:



+1
You don't see the frame repeats at all. It crams 5 frames in the same amount of time it was only supposed to do one. Your eye does not notice it. To your eye, it appears as a single 24fps frame. Instead of playing a single frame at 1/24 of a second, it plays the same frame 5 times at 1/120 of a second each time.

Again, a 24fps movie played on a 60hz display jitters because of pulldown. It plays one frame 3 times, then the next frame 2 times. It's this uneven amount of frame repeats that causes the jitter. 120hz screens repeat all frames the same amount of times.

Pal is completely unrelated to this discussion.

Playing your DVR at double speed does not prove your point. It is also a completely unrelated phenomenon.
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