Thursday, July 26th 2012
Windows 8 a Catastrophe, Want Linux to Thrive: Gabe Newell
Gabe Newell is part of the crowd that's not impressed with Microsoft Windows 8, or the direction in which it's going to take PC gaming. Newell's concerns, expressed in an interview to VentureBeat, go beyond the God-awful UI, and predict that Windows 8 could reshape the computing industry in a way that's bad for high-performance desktops, at least those sold by major OEMs, which could affect game developers and distributors such as Valve, which took roots in the PC platform.
"I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space. I think that we're going to lose some of the top-tier PC [original equipment manufacturers]. They'll exit the market. I think margins are going to be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that's true, it's going to be a good idea to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality," said Newell.
The alternatives he is referring to are the other platforms Valve is setting up its Steam content distribution platform. The company already has Steam client for Apple OS X, with quite a few of its games ported to, and enabled to existing buyers using SteamPlay. The company also recently announced that its client for desktop Linux (Ubuntu, to be precise), is up and running, and that it sees a future for PC gaming on Linux.
Moving the PC gaming to Linux is not a herculean task, and is just going to need a few few big companies to take initiatives. One of them is Valve, the others include companies governing Linux distributions, hardware vendors getting their act together and releasing fully-functional drivers, and lastly, for game developers to see the potential in all of it. The move to Linux doesn't change the machine, it only changes the software.
"One, we're trying to make sure that Linux thrives. Our perception is that one of the big problems holding Linux back is the absence of games. I think that a lot of people - in their thinking about platforms - don't realize how critical games are as a consumer driver of purchases and usage. So we're going to continue working with the Linux distribution guys, shipping Steam, shipping our games, and making it as easy as possible for anybody who's engaged with us - putting their games on Steam and getting those running on Linux, as well. It's a hedging strategy," said Newell.
Source:
VentureBeat
"I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space. I think that we're going to lose some of the top-tier PC [original equipment manufacturers]. They'll exit the market. I think margins are going to be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that's true, it's going to be a good idea to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality," said Newell.
Moving the PC gaming to Linux is not a herculean task, and is just going to need a few few big companies to take initiatives. One of them is Valve, the others include companies governing Linux distributions, hardware vendors getting their act together and releasing fully-functional drivers, and lastly, for game developers to see the potential in all of it. The move to Linux doesn't change the machine, it only changes the software.
"One, we're trying to make sure that Linux thrives. Our perception is that one of the big problems holding Linux back is the absence of games. I think that a lot of people - in their thinking about platforms - don't realize how critical games are as a consumer driver of purchases and usage. So we're going to continue working with the Linux distribution guys, shipping Steam, shipping our games, and making it as easy as possible for anybody who's engaged with us - putting their games on Steam and getting those running on Linux, as well. It's a hedging strategy," said Newell.
110 Comments on Windows 8 a Catastrophe, Want Linux to Thrive: Gabe Newell
He wants linux for better profit margins, but anyone who thinks windows is hurting gaming industry obviously never heard of directx or the direct X-box and xbox 360.
Outside of that people just have to realize that metro style was thought up based on activity data they gathered, and how little people actually use the start button in windows 7 instead they pin programs most of the time so if you just make the start bar the size of the desktop and pin everything in the center you get metro. Add a few capability things to replace things like notification icons and you're solid.
DirectX makes it easy to port from PC to Xbox 360 and vise versa, but it would be no different if it were OpenGL.
Microsoft doesn't support OpenGL because it is open and they don't want their customers and OEMs jumping ship every time the market share of another company's OS begins to rise.
IMO the default GUI is a retarded backwards step.
In vista and 7 aero is the first thing I turn off. I just like a win95 style start bar and its been that way since win 95.
Windows Vista was a steaming Pile.
Windows 7 was an epic improvement.
What does windows 8 bring to the table?...
I for one am sticking to 7.
Microsoft is claiming their "Surface" tablet is not to compete with their OEM vendors, but merely a design that others should follow. Thus your experience is going to based on your hardware running the software. Furthermore, the adoption rate of Windows 8 tablets will be severely hindered due to Apple and Google releasing $200 tablets. Microsoft won't even be able to sell the Windows RT version at that price. The tablet market is getting bloated (at high and low price ranges) and Microsoft is late to the game yet again.
as for Games Linux actually stands a chance lets take a quick look
what do most mobile computing devices use? Open GL ES 1.0 and ES 2.0
that means Tablets, Smartphones, ARM based devices all use Open GL,
Nintendo Wii, Wii U are Open GL
Playstation 3 is Open GL
Playstation 4 or W.e is Open GL
Id Tech Game Engine = Open GL
Unreal Engine supports Open GL
Source Engine supports Open GL
Unigen Engine supports Open GL
Most professional Applications use Open GL
Was talking with Mussels about this earlier,
PS3 Open GL ES 2.0 or in reality Sonys bastardised version has Shader Model 2.0 like effects, and abilities and we can see what a PS3 can put out examples Metal Gear Solid, Uncharted, Killzone etc
Valve moving to Linux is probably more related to Steam Box or something similar but effectively there is 0 reason for Linux to not have support for games, as it stands Open GL 4.1 allows for Open GL ES 2.0 to work together aka they are compatible finally Open GL ES 2.0 came out in 2007 as a standard, it wasnt untill Open GL 4.1 came about that Desktop users could run Open GL ES 2.0 apps, hilariously enough AMD GPUs support Open GL ES 2.0 as is,
This means todays desktop GPUs with Open GL 4.1 support could in theory run PS3 ports etc, and AMD already having Open GL ES 2.0 could give them an edge in support. This kinda gives the AMD / Valve combo a bit of an upside well sort of AMD Open GL support is spotty at best in professional apps altho game support seems to be fine, but it depends on what your looking at. Regardless Valve has the software side covered, AMD looks to be along with Dell's Alienware brand as hardware / oem support, now add in an unrestricted OS with no limitation or cost for use.
In terms of the way things are looking PS3 / PS4 to linux ports are possible much like Xbox 360 to PC was, as it stands any Mac compatible game should be easily ported to linux as well.
Examples of Mac games that should be easy to port to Linux
Left 4 Dead 2
Civilization V
Counter Strike
Amnesia The Dark Descent
Star Wars The Force Unleashed
Crusader Kings II
Grand Thef Auto Vice City
Grand Theft Auto San Andreas
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic
Trine 2
Trine
Half Life 2
Assassins Creed Brotherhood
Assassins Creed II
The Witcher
Killing Floor
The Darkness II
Driver San Francisco
Dear Esther
Torchlight
Civilization IV
Blades of Time
Serious Sam 3 BFE
Tom Clancy Splinter Cell Conviction
RUSE
Two Worlds II
Duke Nukem Forever
385 games that are Mac Compatible,
thats 385 games that could quickly be ported over, add in Open GL's usage in the mobile market is extreme well you can start to see the picture.
Now add in the fact that Valve is potentially worth MORE than AMD at this point (supposedly valued around $3 Billion), it doesnt seem all that far fetched that with AMD as one of their premier partners Dell as an OEM, that they had this planned. Valve has been making strategic partnerships for some time, so steam box could be a reality altho less an actually system and more an Ideal as it were.
as it stands a Linux based gaming system means free OS, free OS means $100 towards better parts in theory raising the minimum spec builds because of OS cost being taken out.
Overall Gabe does have issues expressing himself but should he succeed i would gladly switch to Linux for gaming, Open GL or Direct X matters not to me both can achieve the same graphics fidelity, and in fact Open GL has the greater possible audience as of Open GL ES 2.0 and Open GL 4.1. Desktops both Mac, Linux, Windows support Open GL, iPhone, iPad, other tablets ARM based devices Windows RT all make use of Open GL ES 1.0 2.0 etc etc, with combined functionality and almost ALL of todays game engines supporting Open GL is some form, its really not that hard to see what Gabe is pushing for, support for most of it is already there it just requires a push.
In my opinion, Microsoft is somewhat blind to all of this! They showed a complete disregard for PC Gamers when they released the XBOX and that showed when many years later they halfheartedly ported Halo to the PC. Now they are trying to copy Apple and Google by releasing their own store. In their manic bloodthirsty pursuit for control (money) they are hurting their own platform!
As far as Linux is concerned, I like it!! But it doesn't seem to like my nvidia sli setup... :ohwell:
I know of an engine called UNITY 3D that supposedly does it but the outcome is usually far from optimal.
so no im not confusing anything
the GAME engine is Id tech 5 for example
Call of Duty is running on a modified Id Tech 3,
Source Engine runs on a modified Id Tech 3 i believe if i remember right
Unreal Engine has to have support for Open GL and both code paths again PS3 / 360, Mac OS X / Windows
so no in reality the Engine thats take the basic model and texture information and display it while handling physics AI as well have the code paths already for Direct X and Open GL, otherwise you wouldnt see the games on all systems,
I know the difference in API as well,
Simple fact IS
Open GL ES 2.0 is the standard for ARM and Mobile Devices,
Open GL ES 1.0 and 2.0 were bastardised in the use of the PS3,
Open GL ES 1.0 and 2.0 from what i remember are used in the Wii and Wii U
only one console uses Direct X, yes current consoles are Power PC based, but then if its so different why do essentially Xbox code run perfectly fine on PC, anyone remember Dead Island where the 360 version was essentially used as the PC version and it got pulled, but worked just fine?
doesnt matter much all these code paths are there for the most part, It has to be, otherwise the engines couldnt be used, ARM is not PPC, PPC is not x86 but Unreal Engine works across all without issue same goes for many other game engines.
Essentially these APIs get called various names but essentially
Wii, Wii U, PS3, PS4, ARM, all make use of Open GL in some form or another, do to Open GL ES 2.0 and 4.1 offering programmable pipeline they can be customized, but in the end
OpenGL 4.1
Released on 26 July 2010[32]
Supported Cards: Nvidia GeForce 400 series, Nvidia GeForce 500 series, ATI Radeon HD 5000 series, AMD Radeon HD 6000 Series, AMD Radeon HD 7000 Series
This new version adds these additional features to the specification, many of which help bring it in line with those in Direct3D 11:
OpenGL Shading language (GLSL) 4.1
Full compatibility with OpenGL for Embedded Systems (OpenGL ES) 2.0 APIs
Reduced shaders compilation times with the ability to query and load a binary for shader program objects
The ability to bind programs individually to the five programmable stages (Vertex, Tessellation Control, Tessellation Evaluation, Geometry, and Fragment)
Improvements to the general 64-bit floating point supported added in OpenGL 4.0 (64-bit floating-point component input for vertex shader)
Essentially this means as of Open GL 4.1 support for Open GL ES 2.0 based APIs is possible on desktops Open GL is no on version 4.2 which supports Tessellation etc,
the API essentially now offers broader support across nearly every possible platform in one way or another
In terms of abilities Open GL ES 2.0 = Open GL 2.0
They were seperate however for a great deal of time, the newest revision change this, essentially their are many off shoots but its not unlike Direct X in terms of 9, 10 or 11 where different functionalities exist for different hardware. Considering again most GAME ENGINES have support for Open GL due to the other platforms its not that much different, and considering the Mac OSX game support is continuing to grow and makes use of the same API and functions Linux does, its not that big a stretch, the major issue is kernel support etc among various Linux builds which is why Valve is sticking to one distro right now and it just so happens to be the most popular Distro in use by consumers.
In reality Open GL is actually easier to code for, HOWEVER its harder for Hardware vendors to write a good performing DRIVER for it,
Essentially both APIs can accomplish the same thing each offers a different advantage.
www.shacknews.com/article/74977/call-of-duty-dev-working-on-directx-11-game
the PS3's proprietary API uses an Open GL wrapper, thus uses Open GL calls to render out the image, essentially its a bastardized version of Open GL,
its irrelevent about industry standard because it IS industry standard, just not on PC,
if the games on Wii U, and PS3, it uses Open GL if its on Xbox of w.e kind its Direct X,
granted we can see the shortcomings Open GL has granted carmack blamed driver problems on AMD / Nvidia for RAGE's bad PC support but, thats more do to the fact Open GL is again harder for hardware vendors to write drivers for, this is why it has a bigger console share, its 1 set of hardware write a driver and then leave it alone, everyone uses that base config, if that can be ironed out then there is no reason Open GL cant be used,
It is true DX11 effects would have to be recoded from scratch since write now they are not in parity in terms of code in game engines, aka because its a PC only feature currently that much is true.
so no game engines except Unigine Engine, has Open GL features similar to Direct X 11,
that said Unreal, Id Tech, Source are all capable of DX9 / 10 functionality in Open GL if need be.
But i digress Direct X is the mainstay, good examples where it proves to be superior,
Skyrim
Mass Effect Series (360 = 30fps PS3 = 20-22FPS)
to name a couple, so yea currently developers havent had much reason to utilize Open GL on WIndows PC, i mean hell when Dead Islan can screw up and run 360 code and still work it kinda shows you how similar it really is lol to PC in terms of the 360.
But with a move to Linux, third party titles from the PS3 / PS4 could be moved over to linux easier then say a 360 game or xbox next or w.e Microsoft wants to call it, its not really so much about API, Game Engine or support, its about Developers and what their return on investment will be, if they make a PC version do they make 1 good Windows version a mediocre Mac / Windows version or a less then adequate Mac / Linux / Windows version, essentially more platforms means more work, and while its possible it requires Valve to show Developers there is a market there that wants those titles, and will make the coding for it worth while. The interesting thing about that is once the coding is done, it becomes much much easier from then on its getting that initial investment of time and money spent on getting it working properlry that developers are gonna have issues with, and even then i think its less developers and more about Publishers and the we need you to pump out a game every year mentality.
windows has the most compatbility, linux is for mainly programmers it will NEVER be as user friendly as mac or windows... NEVER lol
Im just saying its possible to make it work on Linux and make it a viable gaming platform, and that its really not THAT hard to do so, its just like we both know it comes down to MONEY, and RETURN ON INVESTMENT, will developers go for it or not? Valve seems to think so, and considering Valve being private owned is now worth more than AMD, im willing to bet Valve will make money off this hand over fist in some way shape or form.
I dont care if they do, i think it would still be awesome to have the option to play games on Linux, which is just an install and go no dicking around with Wine lol. And i also agree its about Steambox
why wouldnt they push for Linux? its fucking FREE, slap Linux on Steambox you get a console with a functional OS and you didnt have to pay for the OS
we all know its a just a PC with a different name
so $500 Steambox (pulling the number out of my ass here) what looks better to Valve and developers
$500 for parts or $400 for Parts $100 for OS, in this situation Steambox with Linux offers more bang for buck hardware wise, this is just a really simple look at it however.
I dont expect this Linux Valve marriage of Awesome with Terrible AMD open GL support to go anywhere fast, but in a couple years time, it will have gained some traction.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFUwKJa0JbY <-- hilarious video for pc/mac users, i dont really like mac but i still love sinbad comedy so its ok haha
I like windows, I really do. But I could even be happy with a hackintosh. I don't have a favorite os, I just need something that works. The thing that I like about linux is that it is free, open, and does all the same things. Linux in my opinion can be just as good as windows. The only thing keeping me, and a lot of people, is the compatibility. What is stopping me from a total conversion is games and my laptops finger print scanner. Man I love that scanner. Great for when I just woke up and can't see my keyboard because my eyes are so blurry. I really hope gaming on linux gains momentum, even if I don't use it, I just like the ability to game on linux available.
When did you last try linux? Depending on which linux, it can be uber user friendly. If my grandmother, who happens to think google is the internet, can use linux mint without ever calling me for help... it is pretty darn user friendly.
look noone can convert me to linux or mac.. ive been using windows since 2002 and mac from 1998-2001 got tired of the G3 freezing there is nothing a linux user can do that i cant for what i need to get done, and I'm! a programmer lol.. noone needs linux for any reason, i dont even use linux for my game server and web server, so really.. the hype over anything other than windows is trash and useless