Friday, December 1st 2017

AMD Second-generation Ryzen "Pinnacle Ridge" Confirmed to Support AM4

AMD, in an interview with Overclockers UK (OCUK), confirmed that its second-generation Ryzen desktop processors will support the existing AM4 socket, so current Ryzen platform users can seamlessly upgrade to the new processors, with a BIOS update. Most current AM4 socket motherboards will require BIOS updates to support Ryzen "Raven Ridge" desktop APUs, and Ryzen "Pinnacle Ridge" CPUs, as the two require an update to the latest AGESA 1.0.0.7 version. In the interview, AMD representative James Prior confirmed that the company plans to keep AM4 its mainstream-desktop processor socket all the way up to 2020, which means at least another two to three generations of processors for it.

The next generation is "Pinnacle Ridge," which is rumored to be an optical-shrink of the "Summit Ridge" silicon to the 12 nm process, enabling higher clock speeds. The decision to keep AM4 doesn't mean the company's 300-series chipset will be made to stretch over 3 years. The company could release newer chipsets, particularly to address 300-series chipset's main shortcoming, just 6-8 older PCI-Express gen 2.0 general purpose lanes (while Intel chipsets put out up to 24 gen 3.0 lanes).

Source: OCUK (Facebook)
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144 Comments on AMD Second-generation Ryzen "Pinnacle Ridge" Confirmed to Support AM4

#1
GoldenX
EarthDog said:
Really, the cpu is the last thing people actually need to upgrade, yet, suddenly its a huge issue, we need to upgrade our cpus every 3 years? After 4/5, when most people actually want/need a cpu upgrade, ill want what the new chipset has to offer anyway. If you are sticking with a mobo for 6-8 years, chances are one may get an AIC or two which again cuts into any cost savings from hanging on to a mobo. Its also well past their 3 year warranty and more prone for failure the older it gets so...
Upgrading a CPU is a big deal if you start with a cheap one, and the upgrade is not compatible with your board due to "reasons".
Posted on Reply
#2
EarthDog
GoldenX said:
Upgrading a CPU is a big deal if you start with a cheap one, and the upgrade is not compatible with your board due to "reasons".
And? I dont understand that argument... if you dropped in a quad intel, i can upgrade to a hex with ht tripling the threads on the same mobo. Or lower than that even...so.....
Posted on Reply
#3
Xzibit
EarthDog said:
And? I dont understamd that argument... if you dropped in a quad intel, i can upgrade to a hex with ht tripling the threads on the same mobo. Or lower than that even...so.....
He might be talking over time and you might be talking with-in the same generation.

Budget aspect as well. Maybe a buyer doesn't have the flexibility to buy a higher core count now but is hoping he will have the capability down the road months/1-2years down the road. When that opportunity comes those cpu/mb combos might not be available anymore and will have to purchase all new CPU/MB combo.
Posted on Reply
#4
GoldenX
Xzibit said:
He might be talking over time and you might be talking with-in the same generation.

Budget aspect as well. Maybe a buyer doesn't have the flexibility to buy a higher core count now but is hoping he will have the capability down the road months/1-2years down the road. When that opportunity comes those cpu/mb combos might not be available anymore and will have to purchase a new combo.
Exactly. For example I can't go for a 1700 or a 8700k now, but I can for example go for a R3-1200, or an i3-8100 and upgrade along the way. Surprise, the same AM4 is fine in a couple of years, and with the i3, you have to go for an expensive, used, discontinued i7, because the mother is not compatible with the current offerings.
Posted on Reply
#5
EarthDog
Yep, different generations will likely not work on intel... you would lose out on the generational IPC increase...whatever that may be. :)

That said, doesnt change anything, really. I can see it worth it to some, but... the way some talk, its like the second coming having that ability. :p

GoldenX said:
you have to go for an expensive, used, discontinued i7, because the mother is not compatible with the current offerings.
and you only lose out on IPC. A couple to several percent. Not a huge deal. Particularly when intel has the ipc lead by the same amount. ;)
Posted on Reply
#6
GoldenX
EarthDog said:
Yep, different generations will likely not work on intel... you would lose out on the generational IPC increase...whatever that may be. :)

That said, doesnt change anything, really. I can see it worth it to some, but... the way some talk, its like the second coming habimg that ability. :p
That is a Vega level promise, not even the IGP has been upgraded in the last 3 generations.

It's a big deal because in the past if you wanted an upgrade path you had to go with the AMD FM2 and AM3+ crappy products (going from a dual core APU to a quad core, or a Phenom II/Athlon II/Sempron to an FX), now with AM4 you can finally have a proper upgrade path AND good performance, something Intel doesn't offer since the socket 775 days.
Posted on Reply
#7
EarthDog
Xzibit said:
What about phase outs. Last gen or 2 gens down that CPU might still be functioning fine but something on the motherboard be it connectors or DIMM slot fails. Retailers don't keep old inventory around and for a replacement one has to turn to flee market/e-bay or second hand.

Now we are seeing a quicker turn over from Blue.

Motherboards get revision updates as well.



Check there white paper its 4 (2-T x 2-R ) lanes
failures happen to all boards...

...mobos are revised on both sides...

...i dont get it.

Can you link the whitepaper? Pretty sure pcie lanes are bidirectional, which would certainly differentiate how those work, no?


GoldenX said:
That is a Vega level promise, not even the IGP has been upgraded in the last 3 generations.

It's a big deal because in the past if you wanted an upgrade path you had to go with the AMD FM2 and AM3+ crappy products (going from a dual core APU to a quad core, or a Phenom II/Athlon II/Sempron to an FX), now with AM4 you can finally have a proper upgrade path AND good performance, something Intel doesn't offer since the socket 775 days.
vega level promise? WTH?? IPC increases on intel have been a couple percent the past few gens, no doubt small increases..but they are there. That said, i was talking about amd IPC. Nobody knows what that will be with zen 2. Id gather 10% or so... but maybe its more... maybe less. Plenty of truths of amd resting on their laurels as well. Only time will tell.

Intel has an upgrade path. It doesnt have a generational upgrade path, correct. But how much you are really gaining seems to fet blown out of proportion. It really is situation specfic if its worth it or not. :)
Posted on Reply
#8
Xzibit
EarthDog said:
failures happen to all boards...

...mobos are revised on both sides...

...i dont get it.

Can you link the whitepaper? Pretty sure pcie lanes are bidirectional, which would certainly differentiate how those work, no?
Page 11 has a diagram
Posted on Reply
#9
EarthDog
Awesome..appreciate the link. It shows dmi is separate from the rest of the PCIe lanes as suspected.

That said, I was thinking you were providing a whitepaper to support the 2Tx2R (MIMO??!! LOL!) comment. Did i miss it??? :(

...looking again...

EDIT: I saw nothing about the lanes being divided up to 2T/2R...
Posted on Reply
#10
Xzibit
EarthDog said:
Awesome..appreciate the link. It shows dmi is separate from the rest of the PCIe lanes as suspected.

That said, I was thinking you were providing a whitepaper to support the 2Tx2R (MIMO??!! LOL!) comment. Did i miss it??? :(

...looking again...

EDIT: I saw nothing about the lanes being divided up to 2T/2R...
Had too many WP open. Benefits or not of 21:9 screens

No just knew i seen the answer before in one of those WP. Didn't really want to look through them.

Introduction to Intel Archtecture
DMI is 4 lanes x Transmit and Receive 2 x differential signaling 2 = 16 pin
Lazy bastards. :p
Posted on Reply
#11
EarthDog
Sorry, I read that as 4x T/R and 2x diff signaling? Also, is that DMI2.0/3.0?

Can you link that so I can read it myself? I'm not getting it without surrounding context... and I'm tired. :)
Posted on Reply
#12
Xzibit
EarthDog said:
Sorry, I read that as 4x T/R and 2x diff signaling?

Can you link that so I can read it myself? I'm not getting it without surrounding context... and I'm tired. :)
Oh yeah sure. I'll get back to you in 5-8 business days.
Posted on Reply
#13
EarthDog
OoooooooooooooooooooooK??????
Posted on Reply
#14
newtekie1
Semi-Retired Folder
EarthDog said:
ok, its wiki...so...

They say its SIMILAR to pcie in how it works, but doesnt mention anything about source of the bandwidth.

This anand review says amds x4 can be used for other things as well.. so maybe it is different?? Y9u cant touch those lanes for intel.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11170/the-amd-zen-and-ryzen-7-review-a-deep-dive-on-1800x-1700x-and-1700/13
On the AMD side, the lanes can be used for other things if the CPU is put in a motherboard with no chipset at all. Ryzen being designed as a SoC makes this possible. While Intel must have a chipset, so those lanes will never be used for anything other than the chipset link.

However, the chart bta posted is about the CPUs paired with chipsets. So those 4 lanes must be used for the chipset in those cases.
Posted on Reply
#15
Jism
People complaining about an outdated chipset... How much progression has the chipset offered the last few years? If you'd buy a high-end AMD AM4+ motherboard, that sets you for a few years ahead already in time. And there's no difference in PCI-E 2.0 X16 vs PCI-E 3.0 X8. Like if you need that huge bandwidth for graphics anyway. There's plenty of a decent high-end board. The socket being available untill 2020 is good news.

Intel simply forces you to buy a new motherboard to use the latest cpu's.
Posted on Reply
#16
newtekie1
Semi-Retired Folder
Jism said:
People complaining about an outdated chipset... How much progression has the chipset offered the last few years? If you'd buy a high-end AMD AM4+ motherboard, that sets you for a few years ahead already in time. And there's no difference in PCI-E 2.0 X16 vs PCI-E 3.0 X8. Like if you need that huge bandwidth for graphics anyway. There's plenty of a decent high-end board.
That's the thing, AMD's chipset is ages behind the times. It only provides x8 2.0, not 3.0. This isn't a discussion about graphics, the lanes provided for that are fine, but the rest of the devices need PCI-E lanes too, and that is where AMD is coming up short. Especially with the move towards PCI-E based storage.

Jism said:
The socket being available untill 2020 is good news.
It certainly is, but it doesn't mean that AMD's platform in its current form is perfect. It needs a lot of improving.
Posted on Reply
#17
Xzibit
newtekie1 said:
That's the thing, AMD's chipset is ages behind the times. It only provides x8 2.0, not 3.0. This isn't a discussion about graphics, the lanes provided for that are fine, but the rest of the devices need PCI-E lanes too, and that is where AMD is coming up short. Especially with the move towards PCI-E based storage.

It certainly is, but it doesn't mean that AMD's platform in its current form is perfect. It needs a lot of improving.
I'm not familiar with AMD side but isn't that similar bandwidth. Intel DMI3 runs at PCIe x4 speeds. DMI3 started with 1xx

AMD WP is 600+ pages.. maybe i'll read it sometime.

Intel
The DMI3 port supports x4 link width and only operates in a x4 mode when in DMI3
Operates at PCI Express 1.0 said:
Sorry mate, the lane config is like this:



M.2 gen 3.0 slots on X370 boards are wired to the CPU, and unlike Z370 boards, you can't have three gen 3.0 M.2 slots. That's the shortcoming.
Lanes TO from chipset should all be Gen 3.0 x4. Connectivity from those 4 lanes will vary by chipset.
Posted on Reply
#18
GoldenX
We know you can run a 1080Ti in PCI-E 2.0 and still get the same performance than on a PCI-E 3.0. That's not a big deal.
I think RAID and overclock options a bigger deal than the internal bandwidth of the motherboard, the CPU covers that perfectly fine even on Intel.

Take a look at the H110: https://ark.intel.com/products/90590/Intel-H110-Chipset
Not even RAID 0 or 1, not even on the B250 chipset.

I consider the quality of a product based on it's low end offering, as that is what I will be selling more often, if not always (my country is not precisely in an economic boom), and the low end on Intel is worse than VIA, you get nothing. Now compare an A320 chipset.
Posted on Reply
#19
Xzibit
GoldenX said:
We know you can run a 1080Ti in PCI-E 2.0 and still get the same performance than on a PCI-E 3.0. That's not a big deal.
I think RAID and overclock options a bigger deal than the internal bandwidth of the motherboard, the CPU covers that perfectly fine even on Intel.

Take a look at the H110: https://ark.intel.com/products/90590/Intel-H110-Chipset
Not even RAID 0 or 1, not even on the B250 chipset.

I consider the quality of a product based on it's low end offering, as that is what I will be selling more often, if not always (my country is not precisely in an economic boom), and the low end on Intel is worse than VIA, you get nothing. Now compare an A320 chipset.
The thing about H110 was that Ryzen had not yet launched.

If one is comparing Intel and AMD offering it should be to current available offerings. 2xx & 3xx on Intel side. Either way its being made a fuzz over when both are limited to the same bandwidth.

Its all e-pen measuring if the current CPUs-to-Chipsets are x4 3.0 from both camps. Its what connections it offers through that which vary.
Posted on Reply
#20
notb
GoldenX said:
Great news for us people that can't afford to change everything for an upgrade. This will be great for APU users, ¿you want more CPU and GPU power? Just change the CPU, no new chipset+socket needed.
The tiny issue being that AM4 didn't get APU months after the high-end Ryzen started selling. And these are still older gen CPUs, not Zen-based.
So it's pretty unlikely that many AM4 users will buy with with APU and upgrade to faster CPU after few years.
I mean: when AMD first said that AM4 will be active until 2020 (mid 2016?), it was quite impressive. But at this point 2020 is just 2 years away. It's really shocking how slowly AMD releases stuff.

OK, you might be interested in AM4 Zen, but lets say you're one of the people that don't buy into new, unproven stuff. So you're still not on this platform - you're waiting for Zen+ or something. This effectively takes the 3.5-4 year lifespan down to 2 at best.

Compare all that to Intel, who:
1) doesn't serve us such revolutions in consumer segment very often (and if they do, it's usually stuff already tested in server chips),
2) floods us with new chips fairly quickly: usually the whole range is available within half a year from original release.
Xzibit said:
What about phase outs. Last gen or 2 gens down that CPU might still be functioning fine but something on the motherboard be it connectors or DIMM slot fails. Retailers don't keep old inventory around and for a replacement one has to turn to flee market/e-bay or second hand.
Actually it's pretty unlikely that motherboard fails on its own, if you don't tinker with it (OC, modding etc).

But when it does... well, it's not that bad. As far as Intel goes, motherboards supporting CPUs from the last 4-5 years are usually fairly easy to find in stores. I.e. today you'd have no problem buying a 1150 mobo (not any model ever made, obviously).
And lets be honest: after 4-5 years some general changes in PCs are already visible and should convince you to upgrade to newer platform.
I recently moved from a 7-year-old 775 to 1151 (Kaby Lake). The last 2 years were really a struggle. I was still on DDR2, on USB 2.0 and on early PCIe, so no new GPU worked very well.


GoldenX said:
Exactly. For example I can't go for a 1700 or a 8700k now, but I can for example go for a R3-1200, or an i3-8100 and upgrade along the way. Surprise, the same AM4 is fine in a couple of years, and with the i3, you have to go for an expensive, used, discontinued i7, because the mother is not compatible with the current offerings.
I find this argument pretty weak. :-P i7-4790K is still available today - 3.5 years since it's release (and 4.5 years from 1150 launch).
CPUs (especially the higher ones) are usually available for a long time. Compared to mobos there are way less variants, the production is centralized and they're smaller (smaller storage cost).
Posted on Reply
#21
Frick
Fishfaced Nincompoop
I've obviously not followed the thread, but This matters less now than when you could upgrade from a low end Athlon II to an AMD FX on the same motherboard, but it's still a nice thing to have.
Posted on Reply
#22
notb
Frick said:
I've obviously not followed the thread, but This matters less now than when you could upgrade from a low end Athlon II to an AMD FX on the same motherboard, but it's still a nice thing to have.
But aren't we overrating the importance of CPU upgrade? In the end it's just a CPU. The purpose of a PC is not to have a processor (even an up-to-date one).
PC (and motherboard in particular) is just a weird box that you connect other things to (the really useful ones). Sure: it's great to have a fast CPU, so sometimes an upgrade is worth it. But at the same time having an old motherboard is a proper limitation of how you can use your PC. And it's a huge cost generator, when you start buying add-on cards.

General remark / dreaming:

To be honest, I'm kind of disappointed by how all this turned out to be. It's almost 2018 and we're still approaching the same issues we had 20 years ago - even though the whole environment changed. I really though we'd already be past the whole "replaceable CPU" idea - at least to a point, where you have a choice.
We got NUCs (some pretty powerful ones even), but this is still not what I hoped for.

Think about how much of the CPU + mobo cost stems from the fact that they aren't soldered together in the factory. And if you're on SoC (like Ryzen), think about how pointless your motherboard is. It just connects things, half of which you don't use. And the interfaces got so fast that PC should have already been made out of separate modules, not parts put on the same PCB. And you can do that by getting a Thunderbolt 3 connected NUC + exGPU + drive case.
Posted on Reply
#23
Xzibit
notb said:


Actually it's pretty unlikely that motherboard fails on its own, if you don't tinker with it (OC, modding etc).

But when it does... well, it's not that bad. As far as Intel goes, motherboards supporting CPUs from the last 4-5 years are usually fairly easy to find in stores. I.e. today you'd have no problem buying a 1150 mobo (not any model ever made, obviously).
And lets be honest: after 4-5 years some general changes in PCs are already visible and should convince you to upgrade to newer platform.
I recently moved from a 7-year-old 775 to 1151 (Kaby Lake). The last 2 years were really a struggle. I was still on DDR2, on USB 2.0 and on early PCIe, so no new GPU worked very well.
Its been several gens that Intel MB OC on their own or as simple as a click/selection from different board members.

If your not running the latest connections a 1150 is still fine. Heck some here still run 775. Every once in awhile you'll see a member asking for parts in the forum that he cant find because stores don't stock nor keep things after 2 gens if they don't sell, Maybe its different in Poland but here in the states after the new gen is released most chains get rid of last gen stock. Plus most of the stuff online is from 3rd party vendors that get put up close to initial selling price.

The sillyness is people don't want others to have that longevity of a socket. I never bought an AMD CPU but if I could still find new (not used or refurbished) boards for my old Intel sockets i'd probably buy them and keep them longer instead of moving to a new system and giving the oldest away.

Socket 775 was 2006. You bought 4yrs into it and it lasted you 7 years. Let that sink in 11yrs. Yet some how find a way to complain about a socket projected to last from 2017-2020. That's 3 years. Remember you bought into socket 775 4yrs after it was released. :kookoo:
Posted on Reply
#24
T1beriu
[QUOTE="TechPowerUp's Front Page"]AM4 to remain AMD's workhorse CPU socket till 2020[/quote]We knew this because AMD told this almost a year ago when they presented Ryzen and kept repeating it since then.
Posted on Reply
#25
newtekie1
Semi-Retired Folder
Xzibit said:
I'm not familiar with AMD side but isn't that similar bandwidth. Intel DMI3 runs at PCIe x4 speeds. DMI3 started with 1xx

AMD WP is 600+ pages.. maybe i'll read it sometime.
We aren't talking about the link to the chipset being the problem, the problem is the chipset itself. AMD's link to the chipset is PCI-E x4 3.0. However, the chipset itself only provides 8 PCI-E 2.0 lanes for the system to use for connected devices. This is not enough.
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