Wednesday, February 15th 2017

NVIDIA Turing is a Crypto-mining Chip Jen-Hsun Huang Made to Save PC Gaming

When Reuters reported Turing as NVIDIA's next gaming graphics card, we knew something was off about it. Something like that would break many of NVIDIA's naming conventions. It now turns out that Turing, named after British scientist Alan Turing, who is credited with leading a team of mathematicians that broke the Nazi "Enigma" cryptography, is a crypto-mining and blockchain compute accelerator. It is being designed to be compact, efficient, and ready for large-scale deployment by amateur miners and crypto-mining firms alike, in a quasi-industrial scale.

NVIDIA Turing could be manufactured at a low-enough cost against GeForce-branded products, and in high-enough scales, to help bring down their prices, and save the PC gaming ecosystem. It could have an ASIC-like disruptive impact on the graphics card market, which could make mining with graphics cards less viable, in turn, lowering graphics card prices. With performance-segment and high-end graphics cards seeing 200-400% price inflation in the wake of crypto-currency mining wave, PC gaming is threatened as gamers are lured to the still-affordable new-generation console ecosystems, led by premium consoles such as the PlayStation 4 Pro and Xbox One X. There's no word on which GPU architecture Turing will be based on ("Pascal" or "Volta"). NVIDIA is expected to launch its entire family of next-generation GeForce GTX 2000-series "Volta" graphics cards in 2018.
Source: DigitalTrends
Add your own comment

124 Comments on NVIDIA Turing is a Crypto-mining Chip Jen-Hsun Huang Made to Save PC Gaming

#76
yotano211
Aquinus said:
Jen-Hsun Huang made it with his own bare hands, with magic, using rarefied silicon, to save the glorious PC master gaming race.
The Price: Your left kidney.
The PC joke gaming race
Posted on Reply
#77
R-T-B
Fabio said:
this will be useless. When all the mining cards are gone, miner start buying geforce, and if profittable, maybe less profittlable, they ll buu them all. No mattere how many cards there will be
It wouldn't BE profitable if this performs better. That is the whole point. Nature of blockchain. If they can make these mine with roughly 2x the performance to watt ratio, no one in mining will want a consumer GPU. Period. Everyone wins.

RejZoR said:
It's hilarious how everyone is concerned over landfills getting filled with unused crypto cards, but no one has an issue with burning of terawatts of power to calculate meaningless numbers to make money. Which is essentially what cryptocurrency is.
I'm honestly not concerned about either.
Posted on Reply
#79
haxzion
Crypto Mining is a disease.
Posted on Reply
#80
R-T-B
haxzion said:
Crypto Mining is a disease.
What symptoms should I watch for?
Posted on Reply
#81
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
Captain_Tom said:
So if Nvidia wanted to, they could take V100 and:

1) Cut the amount of HBM down to 6GB, but clock it faster.
2) Remove the tensor cores and manufacture these cards on 16nm (instead of the more expensive 12nm).
3) Use a smaller core, but clock it faster; and then turn the fan up to 70% to mitigate the extra heat.

^ With these tweaks they could probably make the thing do ~80-100 MH/s ETH @200-250w out of the box. With those numbers they could easily charge $1500. I could also see a cut-down 50 MH/s @200w GDDR6 variant sold for $600.


However I am very skeptical about how much effort Nvidia will actually put into making these cards truly worth it. After all, everything I just stated was in reference to mining Ethereum; but there are SO many other cryptocurrencies that these cards would not be as good as the price would suggest they should be. Let us not forget that Vega 64 beats V100 at both Monero mining, and relative dual-mining capabilities while utilizing half the die size and a smaller bus...

What would truly be remarkable is if Nvidia managed to make Turing substantially more efficient at ETHash, ETHash dual mining, Equihash, cryptonight, X17, and basically any emerging mining algorithms they think are on the horizon. And then they also included 1 x HDMI 2.1, and 1 x Displayport 1.4 in case someone eventually does want to use one of these cards for gaming.
He would have to outperform bitmains rumored ASIC for ethash which can push 650MH/s for 750w. Focus on Ethash is idiotic, a lot of the higher dollar algos are not ethash
Posted on Reply
#82
Vya Domus
R-T-B said:
What symptoms should I watch for?
Greed , sudden urge to make a quick buck , the mirage that one day you'll get filthy rich , etc. However those are symptoms of being a human being in the modem world , I'd say mining isn't a disease but actually a symptom of that.
Posted on Reply
#83
R-T-B
Vya Domus said:
Greed , sudden urge to make a quick buck , the mirage that one day you'll get filthy rich , etc. However those are symptoms of being a human being in the modem world , I'd say mining isn't a disease but actually a symptom of that.
Great, I'm fine then.
Posted on Reply
#84
bug
Vya Domus said:
Greed , sudden urge to make a quick buck , the mirage that one day you'll get filthy rich , etc. However those are symptoms of being a human being in the modem world , I'd say mining isn't a disease but actually a symptom of that.
Yeah, because in the old days people dreamt of being poor. Or at least, they dreamt of working in the (actual) mines to make a living :D
Posted on Reply
#85
Diverge
I don't see this making much of a difference. There are already mining specific cards, and but good luck finding them. To make mining specific cards successful they'd need to take control of the products, and sell them directly from nvidia's store to prevent price gouging. Otherwise miners will just keep buying the whatever gives the most hash/cost.

If they want to change the game, they should develop a whole new system to replace the normal desktop PC motherboard systems. Make a new main motherboard (not ATX spec), and a new gpu card layout that makes it easier and more efficient to pack more compute hardware in smaller spaces, with better cooling, more control, and easier management. Similar to what they do for their scalable compute stuff. Then maybe you can separate the mining rigs from the gaming rigs. But that would likely cost too much money.... but they could save gamers that way if they were really concerned... but we know that all that matters to corporations is money and shareholders, which makes miners buying up all the gaming cards good for business - it's capitalism at work.
Posted on Reply
#86
Captain_Tom
cdawall said:
He would have to outperform bitmains rumored ASIC for ethash which can push 650MH/s for 750w. Focus on Ethash is idiotic, a lot of the higher dollar algos are not ethash
Link? I have not heard of this.

If this is really true, I will stop paying attention to Turing and prepare for all-Monero mining...

Diverge said:
I don't see this making much of a difference. There are already mining specific cards, and but good luck finding them. To make mining specific cards successful they'd need to take control of the products, and sell them directly from nvidia's store to prevent price gouging. Otherwise miners will just keep buying the whatever gives the most hash/cost.

If they want to change the game, they should develop a whole new system to replace the normal desktop PC motherboard systems. Make a new main motherboard (not ATX spec), and a new gpu card layout that makes it easier and more efficient to pack more compute hardware in smaller spaces, with better cooling, more control, and easier management. Similar to what they do for their scalable compute stuff. Then maybe you can separate the mining rigs from the gaming rigs. But that would likely cost too much money.... but they could save gamers that way if they were really concerned... but we know that all that matters to corporations is money and shareholders, which makes miners buying up all the gaming cards good for business - it's capitalism at work.
That's basically what I think too:

1) Nvidia could make some excellent mining hardware if they really wanted to, and it would essentially save PC gaming (or at least make it so cards are only 20% above MSRP lol). Heck if they wrote official mining drivers (with real effort) they could probably boost their cards substantially.

2) But at the same time it would be somewhat risky unless they really put in the effort to make an architecture that truly is at least 2x as good at every mining algorithm, and not just one or two of the (currently) popular ones. However I doubt they would put that much effort into this considering the numerous easy mistakes they could make.

3) In reality, I think a "Turing" mining architecture is most likely to be a version of Volta with less RAM, less ROP's, and no Tensor cores. That's it, and it will only be useful for under a year...
Posted on Reply
#87
R-T-B
Captain_Tom said:
Link? I have not heard of this.
You don't need a link, you simply need to type some numbers in a calculator.

For 1080's for example, ethhash is a terrible choice. Equihash is much better.

Captain_Tom said:
But at the same time it would be somewhat risky unless they really put in the effort to make an architecture that truly is at least 2x as good at every mining algorithm, and not just one or two of the (currently) popular ones. However I doubt they would put that much effort into this considering the numerous easy mistakes they could make.
That is what is needed, and I too am pretty much a skeptic that that's what we'll get. I think you are spot on with 3.
Posted on Reply
#88
yotano211
haxzion said:
Crypto Mining is a disease.
You seem to be suffering from the mad angry gamer disease.
Posted on Reply
#89
Casecutter
Captain_Tom said:
Nvidia could make some excellent mining hardware if they really wanted to, and it would essentially save PC gaming (or at least make it so cards are only 20% above MSRP lol).
But there's the crux of the issue why use their limited production in wafers sullied on market that only provides "X" amount ROI (Gaming). When right now there's a market the has ability to provide "XXX" obscene ROI, while no sponsoring gaming houses, always fixing or creating drivers (though that wouldn't totally go away).

Again they/any smart executive would make a about-face on the PC Gaming Industry in a Heart-Beat, if they could!
And with the reduce volume they'd hold to supply gaming, it would still mean high(er) MSRP for what is offered.
Posted on Reply
#90
Captain_Tom
Casecutter said:
But there's the crux of the issue why use their limited production in wafers sullied on market that only provides "X" amount ROI (Gaming). When right now there's a market the has ability to provide "XXX" obscene ROI, while no sponsoring gaming houses, always fixing or creating drivers (though that wouldn't totally go away).

Again they/any smart executive would make a about-face on the PC Gaming Industry in a Heart-Beat, if they could!
And with the reduce volume they'd hold to supply gaming, it would still mean high(er) MSRP for what is offered.
Oh I agree there is a ton of potential for immense profits if they handle this right, but from my perspective this can only go well if they either 1) do the bare minimum, or 2) go ALL in on making this a full mining architecture.

Furthermore I think everyone here should watch this video:

<div class="youtube-embed" data-id="xKq7NGavYqw"><img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xKq7NGavYqw/hqdefault.jpg" /><div class="youtube-play"></div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKq7NGavYqw" target="_blank" class="youtube-title"></a></div>

1) In his analysis it starts to become pretty clear that around HALF of Nvidia's current profits in desktop gaming cards are coming from crypto! HALF!

2) Even funnier, is the fact that Nvidia's crypto revenue seems to have accelerated immensely right around when AMD cards were completely out of stock.

3) Nvidia even goes on to say that they believe they can force more GDDR from manufacturers because of "How much bigger they are than AMD." This is an important claim they are making too, important because AMD said they could produce 20% more GPU's if they could just get a hold of RAM.


So yeah I hope Nvidia can figure out a way to make a powerful mining arch that can be manufactured with alternative facilities to the ones foundries currently employ for gaming cards, and also that it actually has legs and can mine EVERYTHING best. But they better be careful because there are multiple wrong moves they could make that would cut there income down by incredible amounts over night...
Posted on Reply
#91
Casecutter
Captain_Tom said:
In his analysis it starts to become pretty clear that around HALF of Nvidia's current profits in desktop gaming cards are coming from crypto! HALF!
That's a weird statement as then that's saying the other half of their Gaming GPU's are still being purchased by "non-mining" community even though and grossly inflate prices... that's not believable! Unless that's the volume through OEM's, Discrete card on the GP107 and below and their website, but those aren't where I'd say they see half the profit. While how can they actually even know that?

Again it boils down to...Is there foundries that can produce complex GPU silicone right now today, that's sitting with idle capacity?
Posted on Reply
#92
efikkan
Interesting…, using the guy famous for the video about AMD's "master plan" as a source.
There is no evidence supporting that half of Nvidia's profits in the consumer market is due to mining. Keep in mind that inflated prices at retailers doesn't affect Nvidia's profits.

Most GPUs are not sold at extremely inflated prices. Firstly, the problem is localized. Secondly, even though many of the cards in stock are overpriced, doesn't meant the larger volume are sold at these prices. Popular products have large backorders, and might ship hundreds or thousands every week even if it appears to remain "sold out" for months.

The theory of a "mining shortage" fails due to AMD's claim of memory shortage. Cards are not assembled by Nvidia or AMD, but by makers such as Foxconn on behalf of AIBs. AMD GPUs are still more favorable for mining, which should lead AIBs to prioritize AMD GPUs in the event of memory shortages, but since they are prioritizing Nvidia, it becomes apparent that the primary cause is non-mining.

Additionally, keep in mind the increased demand for data centers and AI also increases the demand for high-end consumer products. Not all development and research is done on Titans and Teslas, many companies and institutions do development on high-end consumer products to save money. GTX 1080 Ti have sold incredibly well for a high-end model, and it's certainly not due to mining.
Posted on Reply
#93
R-T-B
efikkan said:
AMD GPUs are still more favorable for mining
Only in reputation.

NVIDIA has actually been better for making money this go around.
Posted on Reply
#94
Captain_Tom
R-T-B said:
Only in reputation.

NVIDIA has actually been better for making money this go around.
I will say that is complete BS. The only advantage Nvidia has (besides Volta lol) is a 1070 at stock settings are more efficient than AMD. But if you tweak AMD cards heavily, they completely smash Nvidia.

-My $500 Vega cards do 47.2 MH/s Ethereum + 1100 Pascal dual mining. That is the equivalent of 2.5 1070's!
-My $120 R9 380's do 23 MH/s. That's as good as a 1060 that would cost at least 2x as much (And it's 28nm lol)
-And of course RX 580's mine as well as 1070's if properly tweaked.

There is a reason RX 580's eventually started selling for the same price as 1070's, and in general AMD cards sold out WAY before Nvida...
Posted on Reply
#95
lexluthermiester
Captain_Tom said:
But if you tweak AMD cards heavily, they completely smash Nvidia.
That is dependent on the card and how much it gets "tweaked". Running cards bog standard, Nvidia is the better choice. Fairly certain that's what R-T-B was getting at.
Captain_Tom said:
AMD cards sold out WAY before Nvidia...
That is because fewer of them were/are being made, not because they're more popular.
Posted on Reply
#96
R-T-B
Captain_Tom said:
I will say that is complete BS. The only advantage Nvidia has (besides Volta lol) is a 1070 at stock settings are more efficient than AMD. But if you tweak AMD cards heavily, they completely smash Nvidia.

-My $500 Vega cards do 47.2 MH/s Ethereum + 1100 Pascal dual mining. That is the equivalent of 2.5 1070's!
-My $120 R9 380's do 23 MH/s. That's as good as a 1060 that would cost at least 2x as much (And it's 28nm lol)
-And of course RX 580's mine as well as 1070's if properly tweaked.

There is a reason RX 580's eventually started selling for the same price as 1070's, and in general AMD cards sold out WAY before Nvida...
There is also a reason they are cheaper and that is their energy consumption. Pascal is much more efficient. Heck, they even hold the ethereum mining crown with the Titan V. And with less energy.
Posted on Reply
#97
lexluthermiester
R-T-B said:
There is also a reason they are cheaper and that is their energy consumption. Pascal is much more efficient. Heck, they even hold the ethereum mining crown with the Titan V. And with less energy.
Those are good points too. And that's not to say that Radeon's aren't good, because they are. It's just that NVidia has the absolute performance edge, tier for tier.
Posted on Reply
#98
Captain_Tom
R-T-B said:
There is also a reason they are cheaper and that is their energy consumption. Pascal is much more efficient. Heck, they even hold the ethereum mining crown with the Titan V. And with less energy.
It's not. My RX 570's are pulling ~110w just like 1060's do, and Vega has been proven by numerous sources to be the most efficient card you can buy (Besides Volta that costs 6x as much lol). You can undervolt AMD Buddy, and AMD traditionally responds WAY better to undervolting than Nvidia.

Again let's look at my highly overclocked Vega's that pull ~310w: They have 1.5x the hashing power an overclocked 180w 1070 has in Ethereum, and then they are also mining Pascal as well as another 1070 at the same time! That is substantially more efficient than Nvidia's most efficient mining card, and I could clock them lower for much better efficiency if I wanted to.


Now Volta is more efficient, but it's also a lowly-clocked 12nm card with a 73% larger die size! Of course it is better in Ethereum mining (and still worse in cryptonight)! It also costs substantially more to produce and buy. Nvidia would be wise to make a for-mining architecture so they don't lose sizable amounts of income if AMD cards ever come back in stock in sufficient numbers.
Posted on Reply
#99
R-T-B
Captain_Tom said:
It's not. My RX 570's are pulling ~110w just like 1060's do, and Vega has been proven by numerous sources to be the most efficient card you can buy (Besides Volta that costs 6x as much lol). You can undervolt AMD Buddy, and AMD traditionally responds WAY better to undervolting than Nvidia.

Again let's look at my highly overclocked Vega's that pull ~310w: They have 1.5x the hashing power an overclocked 180w 1070 has in Ethereum, and then they are also mining Pascal as well as another 1070 at the same time! That is substantially more efficient than Nvidia's most efficient mining card, and I could clock them lower for much better efficiency if I wanted to.


Now Volta is more efficient, but it's also a lowly-clocked 12nm card with a 73% larger die size! Of course it is better in Ethereum mining (and still worse in cryptonight)! It also costs substantially more to produce and buy. Nvidia would be wise to make a for-mining architecture so they don't lose sizable amounts of income if AMD cards ever come back in stock in sufficient numbers.
I guess I should admit that when I made that statement, I was considering the AMD stock situation. Harder to get AMD at msrp than even nvidia.

I learned a few things though, not being a amd miner myself. Have a thanks.
Posted on Reply
#100
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
Captain_Tom said:
I will say that is complete BS. The only advantage Nvidia has (besides Volta lol) is a 1070 at stock settings are more efficient than AMD. But if you tweak AMD cards heavily, they completely smash Nvidia.

-My $500 Vega cards do 47.2 MH/s Ethereum + 1100 Pascal dual mining. That is the equivalent of 2.5 1070's!
-My $120 R9 380's do 23 MH/s. That's as good as a 1060 that would cost at least 2x as much (And it's 28nm lol)
-And of course RX 580's mine as well as 1070's if properly tweaked.

There is a reason RX 580's eventually started selling for the same price as 1070's, and in general AMD cards sold out WAY before Nvida...
You mind showing your Vega card doing 47.2+1100 pascal sustained for any period of time?

and my 1060's ran $140-150 USD and use less than half the power those 380's do...
Posted on Reply
Add your own comment