Friday, February 8th 2019

No AMD Radeon "Navi" Before October: Report

AMD "Navi" is the company's next-generation graphics architecture succeeding "Vega" and will leverage the 7 nm silicon fabrication process. It was originally slated to launch mid-2019, with probable unveiling on the sidelines of Computex (early-June). Cowcotland reports that AMD has delayed its plans to launch "Navi" all the way to October (Q4-2019). The delay probably has something to do with AMD's 7 nm foundry allocation for the year.

AMD is now fully reliant on TSMC to execute its 7 nm product roadmap, which includes its entire 2nd generation EPYC and 3rd generation Ryzen processors based on the "Zen 2" architecture, and to a smaller extent, GPUs based on its 2nd generation "Vega" architecture, such as the recently launched Radeon VII. We expect the first "Navi" discrete GPU to be a lean, fast-moving product that succeeds "Polaris 30." In addition to 7 nm, it could incorporate faster SIMD units, higher clock-speeds, and a relatively cost-effective memory solution, such as GDDR6.
Source: Cowcotland
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135 Comments on No AMD Radeon "Navi" Before October: Report

#76
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
GCN5/Vega was the biggest change to GCN since its debut with the Next Compute Unit. I really have no guess as to what they're changing in Navi. VR is a priority for Sony so maybe some techniques in Navi to accelerate the VR experience?
Posted on Reply
#77
Super XP
R0H1T, post: 3991189, member: 131092"
No it's AMD which brought the eight ores to the mainstream market, Intel had been fleecing customers for ages with their quad cores & overpriced HEDT. But those sticking with Intel still bought the 7700k, then 8700k & now 9700k or above. Same with HEDT, albeit to a lesser extent because AMD's many (more) cores work better in that environment.
You mean the 1800x or how many derided it for being overpriced or something? Remember the competition, what was the price of 8 core Intel then?
Similar how?
Yet it's the CPU division which is bringing in the big bucks.
Like Apple, no?
Not entirely their fault, that's the point.
AMD brought many firsts to design and market because they can't afford to not Innovate. Intel was beat many times.

Intel tried to push Rambus, AMD stuck with DDR and WON. AMD 1st Dual Core, Tri Core Quad Core 6 Core 8 core etc. 1st on board L2 cache 1st IMC 1st to introduce a high speed HTT interconnect 1st to push industry to 64-Bit etc.

And on and on AMD lead while Intel followed.

For x86 microprocessor innovations, AMD has shown the way as well.

First superscalar RISC - K5
First to use "Flip-Chip" technology - K6
First on-chip L2 cache - K6-3
First use of copper interconnects - K7
First fully pipelined, superscalar floating point unit - K7
First to extend x86 to 64-bits (AMD64) - K8
Posted on Reply
#78
efikkan
Super XP, post: 3991762, member: 8670"
AMD brought many firsts to design and market because they can't afford to not Innovate.

First superscalar RISC - K5
AMD have brought many useful innovations that have been appreciated by PC users. I remember the days of K6, K7 and K8 as some of the most exciting days of computing, both companies were moving fast, and AMD offered better performance at a lower price, especially later Athlons and Athlon64s.

Regarding specific innovations, while AMD K5 might be a more true RISC processor at its core, Intel also used RISC like micro operations in the superscalar design known as P6. It's also worth mentioning that AMD abandoned their K5 design and bought the successor K6 from another company.

In more recent innovations, I would mention the often overlooked extension to AVX known as FMA3, which has since been fully embraced by Intel.
Posted on Reply
#79
Super XP
efikkan, post: 3991788, member: 150226"
AMD have brought many useful innovations that have been appreciated by PC users. I remember the days of K6, K7 and K8 as some of the most exciting days of computing, both companies were moving fast, and AMD offered better performance at a lower price, especially later Athlons and Athlon64s.

Regarding specific innovations, while AMD K5 might be a more true RISC processor at its core, Intel also used RISC like micro operations in the superscalar design known as P6. It's also worth mentioning that AMD abandoned their K5 design and bought the successor K6 from another company.

In more recent innovations, I would mention the often overlooked extension to AVX known as FMA3, which has since been fully embraced by Intel.
AMD acquired NextGen for its K6. Very smart move back in the day. It's what AMD did there after. Great times back then.
Posted on Reply
#80
kastriot
Well they need to concentrate on 7nm cpu-s there where the money is atm, navi has less priority simple as that.
Posted on Reply
#81
Super XP
kastriot, post: 3991858, member: 165334"
Well they need to concentrate on 7nm cpu-s there where the money is atm, navi has less priority simple as that.
Agreed.
AMD needs to have a successful commercial 7nm ZEN launch, and ensure they have sufficient 7nm chips. I think that might be one reason Navi is somewhat delayed. Or why there isn't too many Radeon VII 's available.
Posted on Reply
#82
jabbadap
HTC, post: 3990845, member: 51238"
Are you sure?

From what i heard / read, Navi is supposed to be the last GCN based family of cards and it will be Arcturus, If this is indeed it's name, that will be in a new non-GCN arch.

Supposedly, Navi was to be announced @ CES but due to unforseen problems, it was witheld from CES. Think TLB Phenom bug style of issues or perhaps worse. Also supposedly, Navi is meant to replace Polaris, meaning there won't be a 2080Ti contender coming from Navi arch, which means Vega VII is it, unless AMD refines it some more @ a later date: can it even be done???
Arcturus is a code name for a single chip for open source drivers, not an architecture("BridgmanAMD"):
Amd/comments/9j88gc/_/e6pu7r5

and more here:
https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/open-source-nvidia-linux-nouveau/1056080-red-hat-nvidia-to-collaborate-on-some-open-source-efforts/page4
Posted on Reply
#83
toxzl2
This is a rumor...

AMD HAS NOT CONFIRMED THIS
Posted on Reply
#84
trparky
xkm1948, post: 3990460, member: 50521"
With Navi still being GCN it is probably wont be much of a challenger to current nvidia anyway.
Call me ignorant if you want but what is GCN and why is it so... bad?
Posted on Reply
#85
bug
trparky, post: 3991958, member: 170376"
Call me ignorant if you want but what is GCN and why is it so... bad?
It's a architecture AMD debuted 8 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Core_Next
And it's bad* because apparently it cannot catch up to Nvidia, Perf/W is like half of what Nvidia gets, TBR is supposedly in there since Vega, but has never been enabled - which part of what perf/W sucks, need of async to feed the included resources, to name just some of the issues I know of.

* I'm not sure it's bad per se, but it's sure getting long in the tooth.
Posted on Reply
#86
Super XP
trparky, post: 3991958, member: 170376"
Call me ignorant if you want but what is GCN and why is it so... bad?
Graphics Core Next developed around 2011 is a dinosaur AMD designed to extend its GPU Design for many years to come. And to fuel past Gaming Consoles.

In other words, AMD needs to trash this design and move onto something Brand Spanking New.

That's where 7nm Navi comes into play. The Navi that's bass on something Brand New which started around 2015.
Posted on Reply
#87
xkm1948
trparky, post: 3991958, member: 170376"
Call me ignorant if you want but what is GCN and why is it so... bad?
Not good for gaming since it always suffer from CU under utilization due to either bad driver support or bad game developer optimization.

Also not good for general scientific computing since CUDA and Tensor Flow are the industry standards now for scientific computing.

In the end GCN becomes good for nothing. (Except crypto mining, which has also died)

#GCNMUSTDIE

Super XP, post: 3991968, member: 8670"
Graphics Core Next developed around 2011 is a dinosaur AMD designed to extend its GPU Design for many years to come. And to fuel past Gaming Consoles.

In other words, AMD needs to trash this design and move onto something Brand Spanking New.

That's where 7nm Navi comes into play. The Navi that's bass on something Brand New which started around 2015.
Navi is still GCN. Whatever comes after Navi will not the new uArc.
Posted on Reply
#88
Super XP
xkm1948, post: 3991998, member: 50521"
Not good for gaming since it always suffer from CU under utilization due to either bad driver support or bad game developer optimization.

Also not good for general scientific computing since CUDA and Tensor Flow are the industry standards now for scientific computing.

In the end GCN becomes good for nothing. (Except crypto mining, which has also died)

#GCNMUSTDIE




Navi is still GCN. Whatever comes after Navi will not the new uArc.
We don't know for sure. Based on multiple reports. One version of Navi will be Brand NEW though. Based on AMD.
Posted on Reply
#89
xkm1948
Super XP, post: 3992011, member: 8670"
We don't know for sure. Based on multiple reports. One version of Navi will be Brand NEW though. Based on AMD.
We shall see. I do hope they finally killed GCN.
Posted on Reply
#90
AlB80
Even after link to the wiki GCN page many peoples do not understand difference between ISA and uArch.
GCN is ISA (instruction set architecture). GCN1.0, 1.1, 1.2... or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... And there is no reason to kill it. The times of revolutionary changes here are over.
GFX is uArch (microarchitecture that implements ISA). GFX6 aka SI is first GCN implementation (south islands). GFX7 aka CI is second (sea islands). GFX8 aka VI is third (volcanic islands, Tonga, Fuji, Polaris). GFX9 - Vega. GFX10 - Navi. Each new uArch implementation can be simply updated from the previous one or completely new design from scratch.
The PAL has references to GFX10 since June 2018.
Posted on Reply
#91
Super XP
Graphics Core Next...
  • GCN 1st Generation: Southern Islands
  • GCN 2nd Generation: Sea Islands
  • GCN 3rd Generation: Volcanic Islands
  • GCN 4th Generation: Arctic Islands
  • GCN 5th Generation: Vega Islands :D (Despite Vega being GCN, it had enough new features and enhancements, that some considered it as a highly modified GCN based GPU. You can tell by its impressive performance :eek::confused::D:banghead:
  • GCN 6th Generation: Navi Islands :D (Is said to be the last of the GCN Gamily, I mean Family. Before AMD commercially launches its brand new GPU, Navi will enjoy the raw power of 7nm with slight improvements over Radeon VII (My Speculation of course) o_O
  • NGGCW 1st Generation: Next Generation Graphics Core What :love::nutkick:
Posted on Reply
#92
bug
AlB80, post: 3992086, member: 103302"
Even after link to the wiki GCN page many peoples do not understand difference between ISA and uArch.
GCN is ISA (instruction set architecture). GCN1.0, 1.1, 1.2... or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... And there is no reason to kill it. The times of revolutionary changes here are over.
GFX is uArch (microarchitecture that implements ISA). GFX6 aka SI is first GCN implementation (south islands). GFX7 aka CI is second (sea islands). GFX8 aka VI is third (volcanic islands, Tonga, Fuji, Polaris). GFX9 - Vega. GFX10 - Navi. Each new uArch implementation can be simply updated from the previous one or completely new design from scratch.
The PAL has references to GFX10 since June 2018.
I think you're not wrong, but since no one here really cares about the instruction set, you should assume that, unless otherwise specified, we're talking about architecture.
Posted on Reply
#93
cucker tarlson
Super XP, post: 3992091, member: 8670"
Graphics Core Next...
  • GCN 1st Generation: Southern Islands
  • GCN 2nd Generation: Sea Islands
  • GCN 3rd Generation: Volcanic Islands
  • GCN 4th Generation: Arctic Islands
  • GCN 5th Generation: Vega Islands :D (Despite Vega being GCN, it had enough new features and enhancements, that some considered it as a highly modified GCN based GPU. You can tell by its impressive performance :eek::confused::D:banghead:
  • GCN 6th Generation: Navi Islands :D (Is said to be the last of the GCN Gamily, I mean Family. Before AMD commercially launches its brand new GPU, Navi will enjoy the raw power of 7nm with slight improvements over Radeon VII (My Speculation of course) o_O
  • NGGCW 1st Generation: Next Generation Graphics Core What :love::nutkick:

vega islands :confused:
Posted on Reply
#94
Super XP
cucker tarlson, post: 3992099, member: 173472"
vega islands :confused:
I was being funny.
:toast:
Posted on Reply
#95
cucker tarlson
Super XP, post: 3992100, member: 8670"
I was being funny.
:toast:
aha
Posted on Reply
#96
AlB80
Super XP, post: 3992091, member: 8670"
Graphics Core Next...
  • GCN 3rd Generation: Volcanic Islands
  • GCN 4th Generation: Arctic Islands

GCN 1...5 are marketing names. Number bumps sporadically.
GCN3=GCN4. Despite lithography update, Tonga and Polaris have identical ISA (GCN1.2) and uArch (GFX8 vs GFX8.1)
Posted on Reply
#97
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/amd-graphics-ip.243974/#post-3838731
GCN 1 = GFX6
GCN 2 = GFX7
GCN 3 = GFX8
GCN 4 = GFX8 w/ "Next-Gen Display Engine" supporting HDMI 2.0, DP 1.3, HDCP 2.2, and PlayReady 3.0.
GCN 5 = GFX9

People were quite disappointed that Fury X/Fiji only supported HDMI 1.4/DP 1.2. It was a card designed for high resolutions yet it couldn't drive a 4K TV>30 Hz because of the Display Engine limitation. Stands to reason that Polaris focused on fixing that which carried over into Vega where it gets used.
Posted on Reply
#98
efikkan
I guess there always is a discussion about what constitutes a new architecture, and as always, PR-people are more inclined to exaggerate generational improvements. What is even a "generation" in this context? (i.e. Intel 9th generation core?)

No CPU or GPU designs these days are starting from completely scratch, but what I and many other tech guys call a new "architecture" is when there are major changes in the overall design. There will always be grey areas, and of course some larger new architectures that influences succeeding architectures.
Examples for Nvidia:
Tesla (large)
Fermi
Kepler (large)
Maxwell
Volta

Or Intel:
Core (large)
Nehalem (large)
Sandy Bridge (large)
Haswell
Skylake
Sunny Cove (upcoming)
And then we can talk about the legacy Intel brought all the way from P6 to at least Core.
Posted on Reply
#99
Crustybeaver
eidairaman1, post: 3990806, member: 40556"
VII Card should of came out during the 1080Ti Era. Too late.

AMD unfortunately is 1 step behind the 2080/Ti.
I'd look at it as more struggling to compete with 2080 and 1080ti, and a country mile behind the 2080ti.
Posted on Reply
#100
geon2k2
xkm1948, post: 3990460, member: 50521"
With Navi still being GCN it is probably wont be much of a challenger to current nvidia anyway.
Not sure this is relevant, even with the same architecture, improvement can be very big, and with all consoles being GCN, I think it might be a good idea to keep the same.

On a different note, this is the same like saying that all intel cpu suck as they still use 40 years old x86 architecture, while we all know there have been multiple improvements to the original architecture.
The same is true for GCN, there have been multiple improvements over the years.
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