Sunday, June 9th 2019

Sony PlayStation 5 Promises 4K 120Hz Gaming

Sony has finalized the design and specification of its PlayStation 5 entertainment system. Unlike buzzwords Microsoft threw around like "8K capable" for its "Project Scarlett" console, Sony has a slightly different design goal: 4K UHD at 120 Hz, guaranteed. The most notable absentee at E3 2019, Sony is designing the PlayStation 5 to leverage the latest hardware to guarantee 120 frames per second on your 4K display. Much like "Project Scarlett," the SoC at the heart of the PlayStation 5 is a semi-custom chip co-designed by AMD and Sony.

This unnamed SoC reportedly features an 8-core/16-thread CPU based on AMD's latest "Zen 2" microarchitecture, which is a massive leap from the 8 low-power "Jaguar" cores pulling the PS4 Pro. The GPU will implement AMD's new RDNA architecture. The SoC will use GDDR6 memory, shared between the CPU and GPU. Much like "Project Scarlett," the PS5 will include an NVMe SSD as standard equipment, and the operating system will use a portion of it as virtual memory. There will also be dedicated hardware for 3D positional audio. Sony also confirmed full backwards compatibility with PS4 titles.
Sources: The Verge, CNet
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95 Comments on Sony PlayStation 5 Promises 4K 120Hz Gaming

#51
ToxicTaZ
"Watts Monster" is 300 Watts all AMD top cards right to today's Radeon 7.... All Nvidia xx80Ti/Titan are 250 Watts.

I lot of people believe that the PS5 is using Navi 20 in it, not a chance...PS5 is = to RX 5700 or RTX 2070 at best in PC Gaming performance. All the guys that bought Radeon 7 or RTX 2080 are above PS5 console. I would even say the RX 5700 XT and up coming 2070 Super are above the PS5.

As for the PS5 playing games at 4K is huge trade off for high Resolution with locked low graphics settings. Would be better if they gave the options of graphics levels like they do with PC games, PS5 would be better running @2K Ultra mode settings or high settings then 4K Resolution with low graphics settings.

No hardware today can run 4K properly or maybe RTX Titan is the closest thing to 4K gaming. 1440p is still the sweet spot in PC Gaming with the rest of the world still @2K.

Super is coming.
Posted on Reply
#52
rvalencia
Valantar
1: I don't think single object focus is the point, but rather the overall graphical quality of the game. There's no way you'd reach those quality levels at that resolution on a similarly-specced PC.
2: UE generally favors Nvidia (slightly), but the 980Ti is overall slightly faster than the Fury X except for 4k and AMD-favoring use cases. That being said, they're very, very close except for 1080p. OC is something else - you can argue that Nvidia had the advantage due to better OC capability, but OC performance still isn't stock performance, and the vast majority of GPU owners never OC.
My GTX 980 Ti is factory/AIB overclocked.

ToxicTaZ
"Watts Monster" is 300 Watts all AMD top cards right to today's Radeon 7.... All Nvidia xx80Ti/Titan are 250 Watts.

I lot of people believe that the PS5 is using Navi 20 in it, not a chance...PS5 is = to RX 5700 or RTX 2070 at best in PC Gaming performance. All the guys that bought Radeon 7 or RTX 2080 are above PS5 console. I would even say the RX 5700 XT and up coming 2070 Super are above the PS5.

As for the PS5 playing games at 4K is huge trade off for high Resolution with locked low graphics settings. Would be better if they gave the options of graphics levels like they do with PC games, PS5 would be better running @2K Ultra mode settings or high settings then 4K Resolution with low graphics settings.

No hardware today can run 4K properly or maybe RTX Titan is the closest thing to 4K gaming. 1440p is still the sweet spot in PC Gaming with the rest of the world still @2K.

Super is coming.
Adding to ToxicTaZ's statements

8 core Zen v2 chiplet and 5700 XT combined chip area size is already 321 mm2 without other extras like speculated hardware ray-tracing while Sony is consistent with their APU chip sizes e.g. PS4's 348 mm2 and PS4 Pro's 321 mm2. Custom Zen v2 could reduce it's L3 cache to make extra space for other semi-custom GPU features.
Posted on Reply
#54
Valantar
rvalencia
My GTX 980 Ti is factory/AIB overclocked.
Which I would assume means you also paid a noticeable premium over stock, no?
Posted on Reply
#55
king of swag187
Fluffmeister
Yeah TechSpot revisited the whole 980 Ti Vs Fury X thing, the 980 Ti was always the overclockers dream (unlike Fury X :p )

https://www.techspot.com/review/1329-buying-gpu-radeon-fury-geforce-980/
Aside from the fact my Fury can barely maintain 1125mhz, but can do -75mv on core, Its a decent little card for what it is, playing 1440P 60fps+. I'd assume a 980 ti can do similar.
Still regret not getting a 980TI, but oh well.
Posted on Reply
#56
oxidized
I'd still love to hear how they're going to achieve that with mid range navi cut down to fit consoles...They'll be lucky if they reach consistency on 4k60fps with such setup.

PC hardware fanboys weren't enough, they had to give us consoles fanboys too...Oh lord.
Posted on Reply
#57
kings
oxidized
I'd still love to hear how they're going to achieve that with mid range navi cut down to fit consoles...They'll be lucky if they reach consistency on 4k60fps with such setup.
It´s all marketing, like the 4K was for the current generation!

Are counted by the fingers of one hand the games that run on the current consoles at native 4K@30fps, (and with some slowdowns in the middle) ...

The 4K are reachable by checkerboarding for the most part.
Posted on Reply
#58
medi01
rvalencia
8 core Zen v2 chiplet and 5700 XT combined chip area size is already 321 mm2 without other extras like speculated hardware ray-tracing while Sony is consistent with their APU chip sizes e.g. PS4's 348 mm2 and PS4 Pro's 321 mm2. Custom Zen v2 could reduce it's L3 cache to make extra space for other semi-custom GPU features.
What is the point of slapping Navi and Zen onto the same silicon?
Both normally operate with different parts of RAM, infinity fabric is there as well.
Posted on Reply
#59
Valantar
medi01
What is the point of slapping Navi and Zen onto the same silicon?
Both normally operate with different parts of RAM, infinity fabric is there as well.
It's entirely possible the next-gen console APUs will be chiplet-based, but so far we have no way of knowing. Seems likely, absolutely, and this solution has clear advantages (all the console makers would need is a semi-custom GPU and a custom I/O die with a wide GDDR6 interface, while keeping a bone-stock Zen2 chiplet), but costs might be prohibitive (this would require a very large and rather oddly shaped package due to the three dice needed and wide memory interface). They might prefer a single, larger die for ease of cooling and packaging.
Posted on Reply
#60
ToxicTaZ
Unfortunately Navi 10 is to watered-down architecture that's going into a console is so horrible.

Tilling people that there is 4K gaming is the same thing as saying Pigs fly.

5700 XT can't play 4K Ultra PC gaming!

In fact 5700 XT is slower than Radeon 7 last generation lmao.

PC Gaming is all about Ultra mode otherwise use a console with locked low mode settings.
Posted on Reply
#61
Darmok N Jalad
I don’t even need 4K on next gen. I’d be happy with more FPS, like 60 to match my UHD TVs refresh rate. Most every game looks just fine to me now on a PS4 Pro, so I don’t feel like appearance needs to improve that much.
Posted on Reply
#62
Valantar
ToxicTaZ
Unfortunately Navi 10 is do watered-down architecture that's going into a console is so horrible.

Tilling people that there is 4K gaming is the same thing as saying Pigs fly.

5700 XT can't play 4K Ultra PC gaming!

In fact 5700 XT is slower than Radeon 7 last generation lmao.
Has AMD said that the 5700XT is a 4k card? Last I looked, all their demonstrations and benchmarks were at 1440p. As for being "watered-down architecture" - care to expand on that? Are you referring to the rumor that Navi 10 keeps some GCN elements? If so, which? The parts that matter are brand new, and the biggest (on-paper) update since GCN was introduced. If it keeps a few non-essential parts around to shorten development time, who cares? Also, you seem to think Navi 10 is going into a console - it isn't. The next-gen Xbox and PS will be Navi-based, but that's the architecture Navi, not the chip Navi 10. We have no idea about the CU count, VRAM amount/bandwidth, or anything else.

As for 4k on consoles, the Xbox One X does native 4k30 in quite a few games (no, not scaled, but a lot of other games do upscaled 1500-1800p at 30fps or higher, which still looks far better than 1080p), and some esports titles even do native 4k60. On hardware that's essentially an RX 480. Does the level of detail match Ultra settings on PC? Not necessarily, no. Does it matter? Not really. It's a great gaming experience for a relatively low cost, and a lot easier to get into than PC gaming. PC gamers really ought to be thankful to the console industry for recruiting more people to their interests, not whining about how the hardware is inferior.

Darmok N Jalad
I don’t even need 4K on next gen. I’d be happy with more FPS, like 60 to match my UHD TVs refresh rate. Most every game looks just fine to me now on a PS4 Pro, so I don’t feel like appearance needs to improve that much.
The resolution goal for the next generation is still going to be 4k (8k is for bragging rights and possibly video playback, and mostly to say "we support HDMI 2.1!"), so 4k60 in "slow" games and 4k120 in "fast" games is likely going to be the norm, but also with some added graphical detail to edge closer to modern PCs. Still, I have a feeling 30fps console gaming will be a thing of the past outside of a few select titles pretty soon.
Posted on Reply
#63
medi01
Valantar
It's entirely possible the next-gen console APUs will be chiplet-based, but so far we have no way of knowing. Seems likely, absolutely, and this solution has clear advantages (all the console makers would need is a semi-custom GPU and a custom I/O die with a wide GDDR6 interface, while keeping a bone-stock Zen2 chiplet), but costs might be prohibitive (this would require a very large and rather oddly shaped package due to the three dice needed and wide memory interface). They might prefer a single, larger die for ease of cooling and packaging.
I simply cannot imagine "packaging" precious silicon on some plastic to be more expensive than creating bigger silicons.

Valantar
Has AMD said that the 5700XT is a 4k card?
Nope, they only mentioned 1440p.

ToxicTaZ
Radeon 7 last generation lmao.
Amazing.
Posted on Reply
#64
Valantar
medi01
I simply cannot imagine "packaging" precious silicon on some plastic to be more expensive than creating bigger silicons.
Depends how big, dense and complex the substrate gets. An MCM substrate is dramatically more complex than a single-chip one, and is a non-amortizeable cost as it's there in production for every single chip. Taping out a new design is a one-time affair, and one they have to do for their semi-custom GPU no matter what. I still think MCM is more likely, but this is still an open question.
Posted on Reply
#65
oxidized
Valantar
Has AMD said that the 5700XT is a 4k card? Last I looked, all their demonstrations and benchmarks were at 1440p. As for being "watered-down architecture" - care to expand on that? Are you referring to the rumor that Navi 10 keeps some GCN elements? If so, which? The parts that matter are brand new, and the biggest (on-paper) update since GCN was introduced. If it keeps a few non-essential parts around to shorten development time, who cares? Also, you seem to think Navi 10 is going into a console - it isn't. The next-gen Xbox and PS will be Navi-based, but that's the architecture Navi, not the chip Navi 10. We have no idea about the CU count, VRAM amount/bandwidth, or anything else.

As for 4k on consoles, the Xbox One X does native 4k30 in quite a few games (no, not scaled, but a lot of other games do upscaled 1500-1800p at 30fps or higher, which still looks far better than 1080p), and some esports titles even do native 4k60. On hardware that's essentially an RX 480. Does the level of detail match Ultra settings on PC? Not necessarily, no. Does it matter? Not really. It's a great gaming experience for a relatively low cost, and a lot easier to get into than PC gaming. PC gamers really ought to be thankful to the console industry for recruiting more people to their interests, not whining about how the hardware is inferior.
God i hope you're joking because if you aren't, you're showing how clueless you are. Navi 10 IS going into both consoles, simply because AMD has nothing better as of now, consoles are due Q2/Q3 next year, what do you think they can do in these year exactly? Navi 10 is going into both those consoles unless they ditch AMD, just not under the form of 5700 or 5700 xt, it'll be a cut down of those, possibly a cut down of the 5700 so the best we're looking at here is 8-9 TFLops vs 6 of the XoneX and 4,5 of the PS4 Pro, a good 2k gaming experience at 60-70 fps on the latest games, 4k60 fps? Rofl don't make me laugh, surely some light game will be capable of that, but most of the games console users play? No, not at all, unless they keep upscaling stuff and scamming unaware casual console users, like they always did.

But the best part is...We need to THANK consoles? Jesus, you are one hell of a comedian. We have to DAMN consoles every day, for the low quality trash they made popular and for how they casualized the entire market making much more stupid games sell like hotcakes. They ruined the videogame industry in an irreparable way, and there seems to be no end to that as trash products continue to get praised and greedy devs are always more inclined to satisfy that lack of taste and of experience to make tons of money.
Posted on Reply
#66
StrayKAT
Valantar
Has AMD said that the 5700XT is a 4k card? Last I looked, all their demonstrations and benchmarks were at 1440p.
I don't see how. Even Radeon 7 and RTX 2080 are barely getting by at 4k on semi new to new games.

I really don't understand these 4k console announcements (let alone 8k from Microsoft) when the PC world is crippling by as it is.

Even more retarded is that Google streaming service promising 4k @ 60fps. At what kind of quality cost? What's the point of this?
Posted on Reply
#67
Darmok N Jalad
StrayKAT
I don't see how. Even Radeon 7 and RTX 2080 are barely getting by at 4k on semi new to new games.

I really don't understand these 4k console announcements (let alone 8k from Microsoft) when the PC world is crippling by as it is.

Even more retarded is that Google streaming service promising 4k @ 60fps. At what kind of quality cost? What's the point of this?
I don't see how Google can stream 4K-60 and have it not suck. Sometimes just streaming video can go pixelated on a decent wired home connection at my house. No way am I trying streaming games.
Posted on Reply
#68
StrayKAT
Darmok N Jalad
I don't see how Google can stream 4K-60 and have it not suck. Sometimes just streaming video can go pixelated on a decent wired home connection at my house. No way am I trying streaming games.
They're Google, after all, and must be smart enough to know this.. but I feel sorry for the consumers who often don't know better.. or parents depriving their kids thinking this would be a good alternative.

Speaking of "Radeon 7", does VII mean Radeon 7 or "Vega 2"?
Posted on Reply
#69
Prima.Vera
For us hippies with FHD TVs only how is this console going to improve things? Finally full 1080p@60 or 120FPS? Finally ultra high textures and details? Those are things that matter.
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#70
StrayKAT
Prima.Vera
For us hippies with FHD TVs only how is this console going to improve things? Finally full 1080p@60 or 120FPS? Finally ultra high textures and details? Those are things that matter.
It's likely that players like yourself would get the most benefit. It's just that sad that efforts to move to 4K are what actually fulfills what should have been done last gen. Perhaps that should be a rule of thumb for consoles. I don't know. Whatever it is they promise, the benefits will probably be more fully realized in a retroactive way (if I'm phrasing it right).
Posted on Reply
#71
medi01
ToxicTaZ
"Watts Monster" is 300 Watts
ToxicTaZ
All Nvidia xx80Ti/Titan are 250 Watts.
2080Ti FE consumes 289W, 2080Ti AIB 336W in techpowerup tests.

Welcome back to planet Earth.

oxidized
I'd still love to hear how they're going to achieve that with mid range navi cut down to fit consoles...They'll be lucky if they reach consistency on 4k60fps with such setup.
5700XT is only 250mm^2.
Consoles will likely use bigger chips that are run at lower clocks.
Posted on Reply
#72
oxidized
medi01
5700XT is only 250mm^2.
Consoles will likely use bigger chips that are run at lower clocks.
Only? That's a normal mid range size chip, and no they won't be using anything bigger, because they have to stay within decent consumption, which is under 200W while gaming, Unless they want to jump from 160W peak of PS4 Pro to 360...But that seems very unlikely. Going with a bigger chip and lowering frequencies won't decrease consumption enough, and besides they never used anything bigger on consoles, than what they had for desktop PC, PS4 Pro used a 232mm^2 Polaris chip, which is a RX 480 but with lowered frequencies, so it was basically RX 470 performance, or slightly higher, 150W of TDP.
Posted on Reply
#73
medi01
oxidized
That's a normal mid range size chip.
That's a small chip by console standards. They normally go with 330-350mm^2.

oxidized
They won't be using anything bigger, because they have to stay within decent consumption, which is under 200W while gaming,
That's exactly why they'd need to go with bigger chip.
Posted on Reply
#74
Darmok N Jalad
oxidized
Only? That's a normal mid range size chip, and no they won't be using anything bigger, because they have to stay within decent consumption, which is under 200W while gaming, Unless they want to jump from 160W peak of PS4 Pro to 360...But that seems very unlikely. Going with a bigger chip and lowering frequencies won't decrease consumption enough, and besides they never used anything bigger on consoles, than what they had for desktop PC, PS4 Pro used a 232mm^2 Polaris chip, which is a RX 480 but with lowered frequencies, so it was basically RX 470 performance, or slightly higher, 150W of TDP.
Just speculating, but looking at the Zen 2 lineup, it would appear that there is an efficiency sweet spot for that chip, and it’s somewhere just north of 4.0GHz. I would suspect the same is true of Navi. With the right clocks, they can likely make a pretty efficient part that still brings the FPS. A wider chip with lower clocks might help them get them there, too. At 7nm, they are positioned well to make something that isn’t really that big for the application.
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#75
kapone32
jabbadap
Bifff consoles and their crappy upscaled graphics. Next you say you love DLSS on it's all glory, or are you some double standard guy that it's OK on consoles but when PC game does that it's next to blasphemy.
I guess oyu haven't seen Spiderman on the PS4.
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