JinxedThat's not true and it never was. Yet some people keep recycling "the consoles" argument over and over again.

There were 106 million PS4 and 46.9 million Xbox One consoles sold in total since their release in 2013. That's 7 years and counting and roughly 21 million per year. NVIDIA alone sold more than 15 million of their RTX GPUs since their release less than 2 years ago. And that's a higher end product (and even a more expensive than previous generations). Combined with lower end cards and those of AMD, PC hardware market seems just as big, if not bigger, than consoles. It is certainly more profitable (Nvidia's 65% margin speaks for itself).

Consoles are not an advatage for AMD. They help AMD survive, barely. They also suck a big portion of waffer allocation from AMD, that could have been otherwise sold in a more profitable PC or server market (if AMD was competitive, which it is not except for CPUs, unless RDNA2 changes that somehow).

Where are you getting those 15 Million number from???

I so hope this isn't a paper launch.

IceShroomWhere are you getting those 15 Million number from???

From the Nvidia article I linked: blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2020/03/23/dlss-2-ai-gaming-directx-12-ultimate/

DLSS is one of several major graphics innovations, including ray tracing and variable rate shading, introduced in 2018 with the launch of our NVIDIA RTX GPUs.

Since then, about 15 million NVIDIA RTX GPUs have been sold.

cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/fpuRz8tRVMZvnMXR4SnVbA.jpg

JinxedPretending to be dumb, huh?

AMD manufactured 150 million console chips OVER 7 YEARS. That is 21 million per year on average. Nvidia's statement about 15 million of their RTX GPUs (RTX 2060 and above, not inlcuding GTX 1660, 1650, etc.) came out in March this year (and was widely quoted on the net), as you can read here:
blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2020/03/23/dlss-2-ai-gaming-directx-12-ultimate/

RTX GPUs were released from 20th of September 2018 (RTX 2080) through 17th of October 2018 (RTX 2070) to 15th of January 2019 (RTX 2060), as you can read here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_20_series

There was also a shortage of these cards initially, lasting to roughly January 2019. With the highest volume card (RTX 2060) release in mid January 2019, the initial shortages and the "15 million RTX GPUs sold" appearing in March 2020, it's easy to see that Nvidia sold those 15 million RTX GPUs roughly within a year. Add the lower end cards like GTX 1660, 1660ti, 1650 etc. and you can easily get to 21 million of GPUs sold, if not more.

In the retrospective, over those seven years since the consoles were released, Nvidia alone might have sold more chips than all the consoles together, especially if you think about sales generated by the cryptocurrency mining waves.


Of course they do have waffer allocation limits. TSMC capacity is not infinite you know. And the 7nm capacity has to be shared among big players like Apple, Nvidia, AMD and others. And it is fully booked. Is that selective blindness on your part or what?

"TSMC 7nm capacity fully booked till 2H 2020": wccftech.com/amd-7nm-wafer-production-set-to-double-in-2h-2020-7nm-capacity-at-tsmc-currently-fully-booked/

Still missing. The. Point.

A simple question; will Turing be on the market for sale for 7 years time? Of course not... and thus, AMD gets a volume advantage for running the same chip on production for that many years, in that volume. They simply pay a TSMC bill, make chips, profit. No R&D involved, no new marketing, no nothing. Its a huge thing when you can just respin the same product for that long, it means revenue with zero effort. Those same guys you hired in the company to create such a chip, can now spend 7 years doing something else. Time is money,, remember that :)

And from that perspective, they also have limitless capacity at TSMC: if they can foot the TSMC bill without losing margin on their product (effectively: 'hey MS, if you want more Xboxes, above X million you will pay extra for them because TSMC and capacity is becoming scarce!') they will do it. Why do you think Apple with its super high margin on sold product has front row at TSMC? And how do you reckon Nvidia suddenly snatched capacity for its Ampere line up? Because capacity is 'limited'? Surely TSMC is working at capacity... ? Answer: Their capacity is their market. RAM mfrs are really good at this game... every time the prices drop, suddenly they magically 'lose capacity' somewhere somehow...

You have to understand the difference here with AMD doing chips for consoles, and Nvidia doing chips for 'us' too. AMD is a business supplier for consoles. Nvidia is a customer / end-user oriented company wrt Geforce. Different metrics apply. We can stop buying Geforce tomorrow. MS can't stop buying AMD chips tomorrow unless they stop selling the Xbox - and that is just the tip of the iceberg, it cascades onto every part of related business. They have agreements and contracts to uphold. Customers do not. They sign and complete the contract upon purchase of the product.

As for card shortage... yeah. There is always a shortage at launch and shortly after, its not news, its standard procedure. Shortage means one of two things: not enough product was ordered/produced/shipped, or it is massively more popular than expected. Usually its a combination of the two: scarce product inflates the price and sellers love that. Another way of saying, demand is usually estimated lower on purpose to create that scarce product. Apple is the absolute king of that game. They get their sheeple to line up and sleep at stores to snatch the rare Iphone available on launch day. Every single time.

Vayra86Still missing. The. Point.

A simple question; will Turing be on the market for sale for 7 years time? Of course not... and thus, AMD gets a volume advantage for running the same chip on production for that many years, in that volume. They simply pay a TSMC bill, make chips, profit. No R&D involved, no new marketing, no nothing. Its a huge thing when you can just respin the same product for that long, it means revenue with zero effort. Those same guys you hired in the company to create such a chip, can now spend 7 years doing something else. Time is money,, remember that :)

So you are indeed prentending to be dumb. Of course what you're saying is not true. It's not like Nvidia is designing PC GPUs and AMD is designing just console GPUs, with AMD getting some "advantage" from that.

Reality check - Nvidia is designing PC GPUs, AMD is also designing PC GPUs and ON TOP OF THAT AMD also has to design console GPUs. Console chips are no magic design time saver for AMD engineers like you're trying very hard to present. They are an additional burden on top of their normal gaming GPU line design work. Actually it gets worse, because a whole line of GPUs (like Turing or RDNA) shares a common architecture and usually differes only in configuration, but console GPUs are custom designs.

It's also not true that it is a single design that lasts 7 years. The GPUs integrated into the console chips since 2013 were in fact several architectures across multiple processes - for both Xbox and PS4:
- AMD Radeon-based "Liverpool" 28nm
- AMD Radeon-based "Liverpool" 16nm
- AMD Radeon-based "Neo" 16nm
- AMD Radeon-based "Durango" 28nm
- AMD Radeon-based "Durango 2" 16nm
- AMD Radeon-based "Scorpio Engine" 16nm

As I said before, burden. No amount of spin can twist the facts. Here are the details:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_generation_of_video_game_consoles

Vayra86And from that perspective, they also have limitless capacity at TSMC

So now you sunk low enough to start ignoring facts. No matter that the fab reports the capacity is fully booked for the standard 7nm node.

Vayra86And how do you reckon Nvidia suddenly snatched capacity for its Ampere line up? Because capacity is 'limited'?

No. Nvidia is using a custom 7nm process developed with TSMC, just like they did with 12nm Turing GPUs. Huang mentioned that in one of the GTC keynote videos from his kitchen. If you were focused, you could have noticed that Nvidia was not listed among the standard 7nm customers in that wccftech article, which you are trying to ignore.

Vayra86MS can't stop buying AMD chips tomorrow unless they stop selling the Xbox - and that is just the tip of the iceberg, it cascades onto every part of related business. They have agreements and contracts to uphold. Customers do not. They sign and complete the contract upon purchase of the product.

Which is why I wrote it keeps them alive. I posted that in the original response. You could have saved yourself some time if you skipped this spin attempt. Thanks for acknowledging.

STOP using the word dumb.

JinxedConsoles are not an advatage for AMD. They help AMD survive, barely.

Do you have a source for that?

JinxedThey also suck a big portion of waffer allocation from AMD, that could have been otherwise sold in a more profitable PC or server market

How's that even possible when the current console SOC's are 16 nm or larger, and CPU's and chipsets are 14 nm or smaller?

MatsSTOP using the word dumb.

Well, he pretends not to understand the point, while I'm pretty sure he does and it's just an inconvenient truth for him. Call it whatever you like.

MatsHow's that even possible when the current console SOC's are 16 nm or larger, and CPU's and chipsets are 14 nm or smaller?

Because the next gen consoles are 7nm.
www.techradar.com/news/xbox-series-x

JinxedBecause the next gen consoles are 7nm.
www.techradar.com/news/xbox-series-x

By the time console sell starts to pickup AMD's CPU and GPU will be on 5nm and lower. AMD and its partner knows what they are doing. It is not their first time.

They are coming:

• Navi 21 XTX (0x731F: D0)
• Navi 21 XT (0x731F: D1)
• Navi 21 XL (0x731F: D3)
• Navi 21 XLE (0x731F: DF)

• AMD Navi 21 (505mm2)
• AMD Navi 22 (340mm2)
• AMD Navi 23 (240mm2)

hardwareleaks.com/2020/05/23/exclusive-future-amd-gpu-stack-navi21-navi10-refresh/

wccftech.com/amd-rdna-2-navi-21-gpu-radeon-rx-navi-10-refresh-graphics-cards-leaked/

IceShroomBy the time console sell starts to pickup AMD's CPU and GPU will be on 5nm and lower. AMD and its partner knows what they are doing. It is not their first time.

RDNA2 seems to be going for 7nm as well. So unless they plan their Navi 2X chips to only last half a year or so, producing consoles is going to eat into their waffer allocations.

JinxedRDNA2 seems to be going for 7nm as well. So unless they plan their Navi 2X chips to only last half a year or so, producing consoles is going to eat into their waffer allocations.

AMD has riughly 20% market share in both CPU and GPU segment. If AMD had 50% market share in each segment than wafer supply would have been tight. But AMD has only 20% so wafer supply is not problem. How many people will buy RDNA2 gpu's besided those Mac users??
And why are you so concerned about AMD's wafer supply??

Dave65Yeah 5700xt will be dead when RDNA comes out, right! :shadedshu: :shadedshu: :shadedshu: :shadedshu:

More like when Ampere lands as it will probably be matched by a 3050(Ti) or whatever it gets named...

JinxedWell, he pretends not to understand the point, while I'm pretty sure he does and it's just an inconvenient truth for him. Call it whatever you like.



Because the next gen consoles are 7nm.
www.techradar.com/news/xbox-series-x

You assume too much, buddy. And random wiki pages and half true arguments to support that... to reach some sort of conclusion that seems right in your mind.

You are saying AMD made a shitty deal, that they are now continuing on with a new similar shitty deal. And then create a story around it that in your mind must be true, based on random google work.

Not sure what crusade you are really on, but its not mine...

To be clear, Im not pretending to misunderstand anything. I just dont follow your logic and it is not mine. If you want to paint the picture of a burden paint away. Meanwhile AMDs financials paint the real picture.

JinxedWell, he pretends not to understand the point, while I'm pretty sure he does and it's just an inconvenient truth for him. Call it whatever you like.

That's not an excuse, because that's not the way to have a discussion. This isn't Reddit.

JinxedBecause the next gen consoles are 7nm.

I didn't talk about future products, I'm talking about the last couple of years, and you know that. And you know you're wrong here. Intel is the one who have CPU shortage, not AMD.

champsilva5700XT 1 year lifespan

That was fast.

It's not like they're gone.


hardwareleaks.com/2020/05/23/exclusive-future-amd-gpu-stack-navi21-navi10-refresh/

Makes sence to launch the newer and better cards now, to fight Nvidia. Hopefully the drivers will be more mature, then the last launch.

IceShroomAMD has riughly 20% market share in both CPU and GPU segment. If AMD had 50% market share in each segment than wafer supply would have been tight. But AMD has only 20% so wafer supply is not problem.

Whether you like it or not it is a problem. As Lisa Su said several times regarding their 7nm "leadership" (honestly it's a bit dumb how they try to fit that word onto every slide), they want to grow their share. And they want to do it in all areas - dekstop, server, laptop and both CPUs and GPUs - with 7nm mentioned (again) several times by Su as their key process. If you actually took the time to read the linked article, you would see that A) the TSMC capacity is fully booked, B) when any free capacity appears, AMD immediately jumps in:

TSMC's 7nm production capacity is fully booked. Relief may only come when Apple migrates to 5nm in 2H'2020. TSMC's 7nm capacity will increase to 140,000 wpm in 2H'2020. By order proportion, the ranking of customers using 7nm will be re-shuffled. AMD's orders are set to double, replacing Apple as the largest customer [for 7nm]. Huawei's HiSilicon and Qualcomm are similar by order proportion.

wccftech.com/amd-7nm-wafer-production-set-to-double-in-2h-2020-7nm-capacity-at-tsmc-currently-fully-booked/

Watching the reality distortion field of AMD fans in action never gets old.

Vayra86You assume too much, buddy. And random wiki pages and half true arguments to support that... to reach some sort of conclusion that seems right in your mind.

Calling a wiki page with detailed technical info about 8th gen consoles "random" just because it completely disproves your argument about a single chip design for the whole 7 years of consoles? I am not suprised. But I am amused.

Vayra86based on random google work.

So what you really are saying is that your arguments rely on people not googling to verify your statements? Niiice.

And so far it's only been you who posts only half of the facts and hides the inconvenient other half - like saying that AMDs console chips are easier to design and maintain than Nvidias desktop GPUs, failing to mention that AMD actually also has to design desktop GPUs, not just the console ones.

MatsThat's not an excuse, because that's not the way to have a discussion. This isn't Reddit.

Are you one of those whiny ultra-liberals that get butthurt over anything? Tough luck.

MatsI didn't talk about future products, I'm talking about the last couple of years, and you know that. And you know you're wrong here. Intel is the one who have CPU shortage, not AMD.

Sorry, but the linked article, AMDs statements about their intended growth by Lisa Su and and their consoles are all about 7nm. Consoles were always a burden. The design costs time and money, software side costs time and money (especially when it sucks vital resources that could have been spent to actually write decent drivers for AMDs desktop GPUs - we gotta keep dreaming). And now, at the time when AMD wants to grow their market share like mad in the high margin segments, since on the CPU side they actually became competitive, they have to fulfil the console contracts with little or no margin. All that at a time when TSMC 7nm capacity is fully booked.

wccftechTSMC's 7nm production capacity is fully booked.

JinxedAre you one of those whiny ultra-liberals that get butthurt over anything? Tough luck.

It wasn't even aimed at me, lol.
I just don't get your need to describe people in a tech forum, sounds like whining to me. Well unless you're trying to hook up.

JinxedConsoles were always a burden.

Still, you can't give us any link that suggests so. Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more true.

The link wasn't for your reply, read again. TSMC being fully bookerd doesn't prove anything, you're making things up.

MatsStill, you can't give us any link that suggests so. Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more true.

I've posted a lot of links supporting that. Do you actually want to see AMD say "consoles are a burden for us"? Like I said, the AMD reality distortion field seems to be running on full capacity.

JinxedWhether you like it or not it is a problem. As Lisa Su said several times regarding their 7nm "leadership" (honestly it's a bit dumb how they try to fit that word onto every slide), they want to grow their share. And they want to do it in all areas - dekstop, server, laptop and both CPUs and GPUs - with 7nm mentioned (again) several times by Su as their key process. If you actually took the time to read the linked article, you would see that A) the TSMC capacity is fully booked, B) when any free capacity appears, AMD immediately jumps in:

wccftech.com/amd-7nm-wafer-production-set-to-double-in-2h-2020-7nm-capacity-at-tsmc-currently-fully-booked/

Watching the reality distortion field of AMD fans in action never gets old.



Calling a wiki page with detailed technical info about 8th gen consoles "random" just because it completely disproves your argument about a single chip design for the whole 7 years of consoles? I am not suprised. But I am amused.



So what you really are saying is that your arguments rely on people not googling to verify your statements? Niiice.

And so far it's only been you who posts only half of the facts and hides the inconvenient other half - like saying that AMDs console chips are easier to design and maintain than Nvidias desktop GPUs, failing to mention that AMD actually also has to design desktop GPUs, not just the console ones.



Are you one of those whiny ultra-liberals that get butthurt over anything? Tough luck.



Sorry, but the linked article, AMDs statements about their intended growth by Lisa Su and and their consoles are all about 7nm. Consoles were always a burden. The design costs time and money, software side costs time and money (especially when it sucks vital resources that could have been spent to actually write decent drivers for AMDs desktop GPUs - we gotta keep dreaming). And now, at the time when AMD wants to grow their market share like mad in the high margin segments, since on the CPU side they actually became competitive, they have to fulfil the console contracts with little or no margin. All that at a time when TSMC 7nm capacity is fully booked.

Between butthurt and wccftech, I know enough ;) We're done.

JinxedI've posted a lot of links supporting that. Do you actually want to see AMD say "consoles are a burden for us"? Like I said, the AMD reality distortion field seems to be running on full capacity.

Yeah it has a strange effect on people, indeed. You should see your post history on TPU now. You also still assume there are some tinted AMD glasses here, but then you really didn't see my post history here. Like I said before. You assume too much. Chill.

JinxedI've posted a lot of links supporting that.

I'm not going to look through "all" your posts in other threads for that.

JinxedDo you actually want to see AMD say "consoles are a burden for us"?

Well, it isn't something I'd ever expect, but it wouldn't be impossible that it came up unofficially from some AMD employee.

JinxedLike I said, the AMD reality distortion field seems to be running on full capacity.

Simply based on the fact that we won't believe what you say, without any proof? I'm not interested in that cult. :roll:
We're done here.