Wednesday, July 8th 2020

Intel Announces Thunderbolt 4: Universal Cable Connectivity for Everyone

Press Release by
btarunr
 Discuss (43 Comments)
Today, Intel revealed new details about Thunderbolt 4, the next generation of its universal cable connectivity solution, delivering increased minimum performance requirements, expanded capabilities and USB4 specification compliance. For the first time, Thunderbolt 4 will offer docks with up to four Thunderbolt ports and universal cables up to 2 meters in length. Intel's upcoming mobile PC processors, code-named "Tiger Lake," will be the first to integrate Thunderbolt 4. Intel also announced the Thunderbolt 4 controller 8000 series, compatible with the hundreds of millions of Thunderbolt 3 PCs and accessories already available. Thunderbolt 4 developer kits and certification testing are now available.

"Thunderbolt provides consumers with a leading connectivity standard across a range of devices, helping to advance computing experiences and delivering on the promise of USB-C with simplicity, performance and reliability. The arrival of Thunderbolt 4 underscores how Intel is advancing the PC ecosystem toward truly universal connectivity solutions," said Jason Ziller, Intel general manager of the Client Connectivity Division.
Thunderbolt products deliver a consistent, industry-leading set of capabilities for connecting computers to data, video and power with the simplicity of just one USB Type-C port. Connect to powerful Thunderbolt docks, displays, fast storage or any USB accessory for a clutter-free workspace. To ensure a consistent best-in-class experience and ease of use across a wide range of product types and manufacturers, Intel works closely with its ecosystem of computer, accessory and cable partners to employ mandatory certification for all Thunderbolt products.

"We expect Thunderbolt 4 products to be an inflection point for accessory makers who depend on PCs and Macs to offer an industry-leading set of product capabilities for a consistent user experience. The advancements in Thunderbolt 4 will help Kensington redefine the modern workspace of the future," said Ben Thacker, vice president and general manager at Kensington.

"The new capabilities and minimum requirements of Thunderbolt 4 will provide great experiences and increased productivity that our IT customers and end users require," said Jerry Paradise, vice president, Commercial Portfolio, Lenovo PC & Smart Devices. "Lenovo is excited to work with Intel to expand our support of Thunderbolt with the introduction of Thunderbolt 4 PCs and the expanding portfolio of Thunderbolt accessories."

Thunderbolt 4 builds on the innovation of Thunderbolt 3 for a truly universal cable connectivity experience. Thunderbolt 4 always delivers 40 Gbps speeds and data, video and power over a single connection. It is the most comprehensive Thunderbolt specification yet with compliance across the broadest set of industry-standard specifications - including USB4, DisplayPort and PCI Express (PCIe) - and is fully compatible with prior generations of Thunderbolt and USB products. Thunderbolt 4 certification requirements include:
  • Double the minimum video and data requirements of Thunderbolt 3.
  • Video: Support for two 4K displays or one 8K display.
  • Data: PCIe at 32 Gbps for storage speeds up to 3,000 MB/s.
  • Support for docks with up to four Thunderbolt 4 ports.
  • PC charging on at least one computer port.
  • Wake your computer from sleep by touching the keyboard or mouse when connected to a Thunderbolt dock.
  • Required Intel VT-d-based direct memory access (DMA) protection that helps prevent physical DMA attacks.
Later this year, Intel expects to deliver the new Thunderbolt 4 controller 8000 series, including:
  • JHL8540 and JHL8340 host controllers for computer makers.
  • JHL8440 device controller for accessory makers.
The first computers and accessories with Thunderbolt 4 ports are also expected to be available this year, including laptops based on Intel's innovation program code-named "Project Athena."

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43 Comments on Intel Announces Thunderbolt 4: Universal Cable Connectivity for Everyone

#26
Steevo
TheLostSwedeClearly very easy to figure out what is what :kookoo:
I've also never seen most of those USB logos.
Let's see if Intel can truly pull off what they promise here.



So all the "security" that was full of holes before this is somehow NOT supposed to make me doubt them this time? Sure.
Posted on Reply
#27
ur6beersaway
windwhirlIt's nice to see that I wasn't the only one that saw this and instantly got DMA flashbacks :laugh:

Cmd prompt:
powercfg-lastwake

Wake Source: mouse fart

or mosquito sneeze or ghosts.... easily the most Un-reliable function ever... Full shut down every time... True story


I don't know about the mouse fart :laugh:, but I thought waking a PC from sleep with the keyboard has been a normal thing for years if not decades?

I could go even further and say that the "starting up the computer with the keyboard" feature has been around since at least 1997? HP Vectra PCs of that time already had that functionality, and you can still find it in UEFI today (I have that enabled)...

Am I missing something??



Honestly, I didn't even know about the existence of half of those :roll:
Posted on Reply
#28
TheLostSwede
News Editor
SteevoSo all the "security" that was full of holes before this is somehow NOT supposed to make me doubt them this time? Sure.
I didn't say that. At least they shoved all of those hole into a VM now :p
Posted on Reply
#29
zlobby
TheLostSwedeI didn't say that. At least they shoved all of those hole into a VM now :p
Totally reassuring, no? I mean, how could one even think of VM escape? The ignorance!
Posted on Reply
#30
Caring1
TheLostSwedeClearly very easy to figure out what is what :kookoo:
I've also never seen most of those USB logos.
Calling any USB-C port USB is confusing, that design should have been given a different name from the beginning.
Posted on Reply
#31
Fourstaff
TheLostSwedeClearly very easy to figure out what is what :kookoo:
I've also never seen most of those USB logos.
Let's see if Intel can truly pull off what they promise here.
Relevant: xkcd.com/927/

So far the biggest use of Thunderbolt I have seen is ... connecting it to a hub :shadedshu:. Intel might want to take a look at making daisy chain cables a standard to mitigate the need for a hub.
Posted on Reply
#32
Darmok N Jalad
Isn’t so much of the issue that to achieve the max rated speeds, that cable length has to stay under a few feet? That really puts the limits on the hardware, since you can’t place it very far from your workspace. It’s mostly a benefit to users that can’t add what they need internally, like in laptops, or any Mac not named Mac Pro.
Posted on Reply
#33
Solaris17
Super Dainty Moderator
Required Intel VT-d-based direct memory access (DMA) protection that helps prevent physical DMA attacks.
SteevoSweet, with this Intel standard people can get ring0 or root access faster than ever before to your information.
Seriously saw that and laughed. Can't wait for someone to leverage there need for access to gain access for themselves.
Posted on Reply
#34
Steevo
Solaris17Seriously saw that and laughed. Can't wait for someone to leverage there need for access to gain access for themselves.
Trying to incorporate all the protocols is what gets me, what do they think will happen if someone feeds it the code from a GPU that gives direct memory access? It's like they plan on everyone playing nice. Then they act surprised when malware targets their implementation.
Posted on Reply
#35
Solaris17
Super Dainty Moderator
SteevoTrying to incorporate all the protocols is what gets me, what do they think will happen if someone feeds it the code from a GPU that gives direct memory access? It's like they plan on everyone playing nice. Then they act surprised when malware targets their implementation.
Not to mention GPU sideband attacks are a real thing. Wack man.
Posted on Reply
#36
AnarchoPrimitiv
FordGT90ConceptBecause greater than 40 Gb/s has huge costs and questionable benefit. Even DP2.0, which was supposed to reach 80 Gb/s has been...delayed. Costs soar even when there's demand for it. Ends up being cheaper and more sensical to use two cables of the existing standard than try to cram all that data into one cable.
Cost? The mainstream has already moved to PCIe 4.0, so what's the issue with giving it x4 lanes like they did with PCIe 3.0? They've had external PCIe cables that can carry x16 lanes for years, no new technology has to be developed, just redeployed with economies of scale driving price down.
Posted on Reply
#37
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
AnarchoPrimitivThe mainstream has already moved to PCIe 4.0, so what's the issue with giving it x4 lanes like they did with PCIe 3.0?
It has not. PCIE 4.0 is only common in new server platforms. There's only one line of processors (Ryzen 3rd gen has 20 lanes) in the consumer space that support PCIe 4.0 and one chipset (X570). B550 only exposes the PCIe 4.0 lanes from the CPU, it doesn't provide any itself.
Posted on Reply
#38
watzupken
AnarchoPrimitivWhy is nobody discussing the fact that Thunderbolt 4 doesn't increase bandwidth at all? I was seriously expecting Thunderbolt 4 to use a PCIe 4.0x4/3.0x8 link and deliver 64Gbps/80Gbps...based on how every single past generation doubled bandwidth, why isn't this one? I was expecting TB4 to be able to finally run eGPUs with zero bottleneck.... So what's the point of TB4?
Generally when there is a new version of a connectivity port, there is always an expectation that the bandwidth will improve. Perhaps I am not that well informed, but this is one of those rare port updates that have no improvement in bandwidth. Granted that the current TB3 is actually very fast, but with competing port standards catching up, not sure if Intel is too chill about it.
Posted on Reply
#39
Easo
zlobbyIsn't?
Ok, emm... how about... using the equipment for it's purpose? Do you buy computer equipment due to security, or because you want to use it?
I hope I explained what I mean't.
Posted on Reply
#40
zlobby
EasoOk, emm... how about... using the equipment for it's purpose? Do you buy computer equipment due to security, or because you want to use it?
I hope I explained what I mean't.
Yes, I get your point. But, just but, what if I need my computer solely for security?
Posted on Reply
#41
windwhirl
zlobbyYes, I get your point. But, just but, what if I need my computer solely for security?
Then you probably would have a established process of checking any hardware with an electronic microscope... Plus no connection to the Internet and a lot of building/environment security in place
Posted on Reply
#42
zlobby
windwhirlThen you probably would have a established process of checking any hardware with an electronic microscope... Plus no connection to the Internet and a lot of building/environment security in place
You won't believe it even if I showed you.
Posted on Reply
#43
windwhirl
zlobbyYou won't believe it even if I showed you.
To be frank I wasn't fully joking (the microscope thing, yes :laugh:). But for security-sensitive contexts, I do imagine certain precautions would have already been taken, like physical security ones. I wouldn't bet everything on Intel VT-d, after all.
john_So, Intel can declare AMD's feature as incompatible and limit Thunderbold 4 to Intel only platform. Great.
Ian Cutress from Anandtech went and asked AMD and Intel about this and made a Twitter thread on the subject. I'm posting the link here and leaving a copy under the spoiler, but TLDR, there are no assurances until someone sends an AMD board with a TB4 controller for certification. According to Intel, certification is conducted by 3rd parties, so there shouldn't be any bias.

TB4 + DMA: A Thread As we reported in our piece on Thunderbolt 4, in order to get certified, you need DMA security protections. Intel initially confused the matter by saying you had to have VT-d, which is an Intel-only technology. This raised questions as to TB4 on AMD systems.

Intel later affirmed that any DMA protection feature that meets certification will be certified. They didn't want to talk about anyone else's solution. We reached out to AMD.

When asked if AMD has equivalent protections suitable for TB4 certification, we were told: AMD: The “Zen 2” architecture supports DMA security in pre-boot and OS environments via AMD-Vi (IOMMU) on USB and PCIe interfaces.

When asked to clarify if this was sufficient for the TB4 spec, we were told by AMD: AMD: If the question is [if] we support DMA, the answer is yes. Any questions [on] if this would satisfy another companies requirements for an interface ... it would need to be directed at them.

I cycled back to Intel, to ask if AMD-Vi is sufficient for TB4 certification. This is their comment (multi-tweet) Intel: TB is open to non-Intel-based systems. Like any other system, devices must pass Thunderbolt certification and end-to-end testing conducted by 3rd-party labs.

Intel: Thunderbolt 4 requirements include Intel VT-d based or an equivalent DMA protection technology that provides IO virtualization (often referred to as IO Memory Management Unit or IOMMU), as well as OS implementation support.

Intel: If the equivalent technology supports prevention against physical attacks, then that should meet the requirement.

So to end a long story short, neither company will say if AMD-Vi supports *everything* that is required for TB4 certification regarding DMA security. There's no public absolute checklist we can go through for requirements and AMD-Vi support.

I guess we'll find out when an OEM partner using an AMD CPU + Intel TB4 controller submits to certification checks in order to find out.

All this applies to Apple as well when they're not using Intel CPUs.
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