Wednesday, August 26th 2020

NVIDIA Shares Details About Ampere Founders Edition Cooling & Power Design - 12-pin Confirmed

NVIDIA today shared the design philosophy behind the cooling solution of its next-generation GeForce "Ampere" RTX 3080 / 3090 graphics cards, which we'll hopefully learn more about on September 1, when NVIDIA has scheduled a GeForce Special Event. Part of the new video presentation shows the evolution of NVIDIA's cooling solutions over the years. NVIDIA explains the four pillars behind the design, stressing that thermals are at the heart of its innovation, and that the company looks to explore new ways to use air-cooling more effectively to cool graphics cards. To this effect, the cooling solution of the upcoming GeForce Ampere Founders Edition graphics cards features an airflow-optimized design focused on ensuring the most effective way to take in fresh air, transfer heat to it, and exhaust the warm air in the most optimal manner.

The next pillar of NVIDIA's cooling technology innovation is mechanical structure, to minimize the structural components of the cooler without compromising on strength. The new Founder Edition cooler introduces a new low profile leaf spring that leaves more room for a back cover. Next up is reducing the electrical clutter, with the introduction of a new 12-pin power connector that is more compact, consolidates cabling, and yet does not affect the card's power delivery capability. The last pillar is product design, which puts NVIDIA's innovations together in an airy new industrial design. The video presentation includes commentary from NVIDIA's product design engineers who explain the art and science behind the next GeForce. NVIDIA is expected to tell us more about the next generation GeForce Ampere at a Special Event on September 1.
Although the video does not reveal any picture of the finished product, the bits and pieces of the product's wire-frame model, and the PCB wire-frame confirm the design of the Founders Edition which has been extensively leaked over the past few months. NVIDIA mentioned that all its upcoming cards that come with 12-pin connector include free adapters to convert standard 8-pin PCIe power connectors to 12-pin, which means there's no additional cost for you. We've heard from several PSU vendors who are working on adding native 12-pin cable support to their upcoming power supplies.

The promise of backwards compatibility has further implications: there is no technical improvement—other than the more compact size. If the connector works through an adapter cable with two 8-pins on the other end, its maximum power capability must be 2x 150 W, at the same current rating as defined in the PCIe specification. The new power plug will certainly make graphics cards more expensive, because it is produced in smaller volume, thus driving up BOM cost, plus the cost for the adapter cable. Several board partners hinted to us that they will continue using traditional PCIe power inputs on their custom designs.
The NVIDIA presentation follows.

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143 Comments on NVIDIA Shares Details About Ampere Founders Edition Cooling & Power Design - 12-pin Confirmed

#126
dragontamer5788
Chrispy_
These are repeating chunks of ordered noise, tiles - as I have called them - that cannot be true raytracing. It doesn't match gaussian/quantization noise that you'd get from a non-infinite number of rays and it has no place being there.
I've actually looked at lots of RNG patterns before. A repeating pattern like that could be explained by a PRNG, like XORShift. Honestly, to me, it looks like its "well randomized", but with a relatively small tile.

Most GPUs these days are only fast with 32-bit numbers. I'm going to guess that they just have a small PRNG state, so the "tiles" will be small. They're using something higher quality than your typical Unix LCGRNG for sure (see here for LCGRNG patterns: www.reedbeta.com/blog/quick-and-easy-gpu-random-numbers-in-d3d11/).

32-bit cycles go fast (4-billion is pretty small, all else considered), and many PRNGs fail at actually randomizing their bit differences... so you'll get repeating patterns over the 32-bit cycles. Especially if you're seeing the same pattern over and over again? Seems like the seed has just "cycled over" like an odometer.

EDIT: 1920 x 1080 x 8000 samples == 16-Billion samples. Enough to overflow a 32-bit PRNG four times. Just for some napkin math (and each sample may use more than one RNG value in the raytracing). Throw down some low-quality lower bits, and a "pattern" could very well emerge.

Just my opinion on that matter though.
Posted on Reply
#127
Jinxed
dragontamer5788
I've actually looked at lots of RNG patterns before. A repeating pattern like that could be explained by a PRNG, like XORShift. Honestly, to me, it looks like its "well randomized", but with a relatively small tile.

Most GPUs these days are only fast with 32-bit numbers. I'm going to guess that they just have a small PRNG state, so the "tiles" will be small. They're using something higher quality than your typical Unix LCGRNG for sure (see here for LCGRNG patterns: www.reedbeta.com/blog/quick-and-easy-gpu-random-numbers-in-d3d11/).

32-bit cycles go fast (4-billion is pretty small, all else considered), and many PRNGs fail at actually randomizing their bit differences... so you'll get repeating patterns over the 32-bit cycles. Especially if you're seeing the same pattern over and over again? Seems like the seed has just "cycled over" like an odometer.

Just my opinion on that matter though.
Patterns can even be intentional, like here, for example:
"Ray tracing has two quality settings: high and ultra. Ultra setting traces up to one ray per pixel, with all the denoising and accumulation running in full. The high setting traces up to 0.5 rays per pixel, essentially in a checkerboard pattern, and one of the denoising passes runs as checkerboard. We recommend high for the best balance between image quality and performance, but please note that we are still experimenting a lot, so this information is valid only at the time of writing."
Interview on Metro Exodus with the developer's CTO and rendering programmer
www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-metro-exodus-tech-interview

But the pattern is about where the rays are cast, not about replacing or faking something with some kind of artificial tiles that Crispy is making up. It's not some made up fake thing. They rays still go to those locations, do their thing as normal. They devs are just reducing the number of rays to improve performance.
Posted on Reply
#128
BoboOOZ
Jinxed
Those are no patterns. You are trying to conjure things where there are none.
There's obvious weird banding in those noise patterns, you just seem to like living within the Matrix :) .
Jinxed
Patterns can even be intentional, like here, for example:
I'm confused now, I thought there were no patterns.
Posted on Reply
#129
yotano211
QUANTUMPHYSICS
I'm gonna sell my 2080Ti on Ebay and get as much as possible for it.
Definitely going for the 3090, as my PSU can handle it.
Gonna buy it on my card, get the Rewards Flyer points for it and then write the whole thing off as a business expense.
I do the same thing with a new or used laptop almost every year.
Posted on Reply
#130
Chrispy_
dragontamer5788
I've actually looked at lots of RNG patterns before. A repeating pattern like that could be explained by a PRNG, like XORShift. Honestly, to me, it looks like its "well randomized", but with a relatively small tile.

Most GPUs these days are only fast with 32-bit numbers. I'm going to guess that they just have a small PRNG state, so the "tiles" will be small. They're using something higher quality than your typical Unix LCGRNG for sure (see here for LCGRNG patterns: www.reedbeta.com/blog/quick-and-easy-gpu-random-numbers-in-d3d11/).

32-bit cycles go fast (4-billion is pretty small, all else considered), and many PRNGs fail at actually randomizing their bit differences... so you'll get repeating patterns over the 32-bit cycles. Especially if you're seeing the same pattern over and over again? Seems like the seed has just "cycled over" like an odometer.

EDIT: 1920 x 1080 x 8000 samples == 16-Billion samples. Enough to overflow a 32-bit PRNG four times. Just for some napkin math (and each sample may use more than one RNG value in the raytracing). Throw down some low-quality lower bits, and a "pattern" could very well emerge.

Just my opinion on that matter though.
Yeah, those tiles as I called them could easily be pseudorandom repetition from an interpolation algorithm too. I only said tiles because they looked like tiles, but I'm just saying what they look like. There's all sorts of ways that repeating pattern could be generated and PRNG is as good a hypothesis as any, probably better than tiles because that wouldn't require any additional VRAM to store the tile library, it'd be generated rapidly on the fly.

I'm familiar with pure CPU and GPU raytracers from a career perspective. Whilst I don't actively model and render myself, I'm responsible for budgeting and buying hardware farms for the teams that do, and in 20 years of doing this I've never seen repeating patterns like this, so I'm reasonably certain they're not generated by true raycasts. The various videos by devs on how they implemented DXR are all pretty cool, but I suspect the real secret sauce of what generates these patterns is another Nvidia black box that contains proprietary methods that Nvidia don't want to divulge to the competition. Unless someone finds more official detail, we're left to speculate with the evidence we can gather from the end result.
Posted on Reply
#131
Jinxed
BoboOOZ
There's obvious weird banding in those noise patterns, you just seem to like living within the Matrix :) .
You are seeing things.
BoboOOZ
I'm confused now, I thought there were no patterns.
The pictures taken are from Quake II RTX. The interview is about Metro Exodus. Two different games, two different implementations.
Chrispy_
I only said tiles because they looked like tiles, but I'm just saying what they look like. There's all sorts of ways that repeating pattern could be generated and PRNG is as good a hypothesis as any, probably better than tiles because that wouldn't require any additional VRAM to store the tile library, it'd be generated rapidly on the fly.
So now they are no longer tiles. Hmm. And it only took a few pages of debunking your "facts".
Posted on Reply
#132
InVasMani
Initialised
Look at all that innovation:

My old XFX Fury (2015???) had a triple fan cooler with a short PCB like that so the third fan blew upwards, it resulted in lower CPU temperatures under combined load vs just CPU load in some situation.

I suspect a similar approach will be taken on may AIBs, does this mean the 3090 is going with HMB, surely you can't squash 20+ GB of GDDR6 into a short PCB like that?

Got a triple slot cooler on your new top end card? Welcome to 2008, you're going to love it!
www.geeks3d.com/20081106/gainward-radeon-hd-4870-x2-golden-sample-with-a-three-slot-cooler/

Got a vapour chamber on your GPU? Welcome to 2006, you're going to love it.
www.sapphirenation.net/history-graphics-card-coolers-part-iii/
That's kind of along the lines of why I think a section of the PCB being cutout as a air passage inlet/outlet between the top and bottom of the PCB with a twin blower setup would work well in principle just push pull push and the natural heat rising element will even do some of the work for you at the same time. The way it's been with GPU's for years is all the heat rises and any heat that doesn't get pushed out the rear of the case which even with a blower fan is probably relatively limited gets fairly stuck in place sure can kind of trickle out the sides, but I bet you a lot still remains overly stagnant and adversely impacts the PCB temps a fair bit. Really even if they had some holes like they use to mount M.2 drives like four to eight spaced out on the PCB to let some of heat escape upward it wouldn't hurt at all. They could do that and have two blowers on the top of the card with a heavily perforated hexagonal backplate to let air escape that pulls heat upward and pushes all that heat out the rear of the case perhaps with a pair of top down coolers down bottom. Basically four fans the card won't bend all the heat pretty much gets expelled out the rear of the case efficiently and could be run at low and quiet RPM's trivially they could even dynamically heat cycle between the top two fans and bottom fans.
Posted on Reply
#133
laszlo
Krzych
Your 2x8-pin cable connects to the PSU with one 8-pin connector, not two.
nope two cables & two connectors one for each in psu...i don't know what psu you have but didn't saw yet the combination you mentioned...
Posted on Reply
#134
Fry178
@DuxCro
last time i checked, "you" aim for 1st, not second place..
so you want Nv to do less, just so amd can have something close in performance?
what other product on this planet gets artificially castrated, so competition can catch up?
----



funny how many ppl here "know" with how good one brand will be, and the other will be doing so bad, on cards that havent seen light of day yet,
nor been reviewed.

please make a sign and put it on your fridge:
it could/should/would..
the good thing? it will work for ANY future release of any hw. :D
Posted on Reply
#135
kayjay010101
laszlo
nope two cables & two connectors one for each in psu...i don't know what psu you have but didn't saw yet the combination you mentioned...
I've seen both implementations. My prior EVGA PSU had a single 8-pin cable that then split into two 6+2 pins at the end. My current Corsair unit is 1 to 1 where the PSU end is 8pin and the other is 6+2pin. Both have their pros and cons, the pros of having the split is you only need to run one cable to the PSU to power a dual 8pin card, but the con is if you're using only one of them you've got a chonky 8pin dangling off to the side.
Posted on Reply
#136
laszlo
kayjay010101
I've seen both implementations. My prior EVGA PSU had a single 8-pin cable that then split into two 6+2 pins at the end. My current Corsair unit is 1 to 1 where the PSU end is 8pin and the other is 6+2pin. Both have their pros and cons, the pros of having the split is you only need to run one cable to the PSU to power a dual 8pin card, but the con is if you're using only one of them you've got a chonky 8pin dangling off to the side.
this could explain why he insisted on his variant which i never saw but it seems that depend on manufacturer than ; thx for confirming!
Posted on Reply
#137
steen
steen
Doubtless a nice piece of design, but necessitated by high power consumption. 8 layer PCB, back drilled VIAs, high compoent density/quality -> high BOM. They're explicit in the video that the way to get higher performance is through higher power use. Will be telling for efficiency.
From page 1. Correction, 12 layer PCB as per design guide. How do you like BOM now?
Posted on Reply
#138
DuxCro
You know what frightens me the most? That those ridiculous prices are the new standard for graphics cards. Won't go down, and can only go up. :(
Posted on Reply
#139
Buftor
A company so rich cannot make a more polished video? This looks so amateurish, with meaningless graphics and horrible photography. There are million home produced channels on YouTube that have higher production values.
Posted on Reply
#140
BoboOOZ
DuxCro
You know what frightens me the most? That those ridiculous prices are the new standard for graphics cards. Won't go down, and can only go up. :(
Well, if sales are going great (while prices are high), how can prices go down? All computer hardware sales in the last 6 months did awesomely. Prices might come down only when and if people buy less, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the trend.
Posted on Reply
#141
Chrispy_
DuxCro
You know what frightens me the most? That those ridiculous prices are the new standard for graphics cards. Won't go down, and can only go up. :(
if the consoles are priced at $500, the PC gaming market won't be able to maintain the ridiculous increasing Nvidia tax for too much longer. Despite the vocal DIY PC market, your average gamer is just going to be swayed towards one of the new consoles instead. The games are heavily optimised for the console hardware and controllers, they get earlier game releases and addtional exclusives and the online community for consoles is usually larger when it comes to matchmaking purposes and keeping servers alive.
Posted on Reply
#142
medi01
Consoles going from 7850/7870 GPU to 2080/2080s levels, beating 95/98% of the PC market at GPU power and now targeting 4k resolutions will only make it worse for the PC market.
Posted on Reply
#143
Totally
Chomiq
So a single 12-pin will pull power from a single 8-pin pci-e cable?
2 x 8-pin, same way when 8-pin connectors were new and weren't on psu's yet, people had to get by with 2 x 6-pin to 8-pin adapters.
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