Thursday, November 22nd 2007

AMD/ATI turns back on AGP users

For the past few months some of ATI's older AGP cards like the x800 and other second generation series cards, have been unable to run the latest Direct3D games. Users have noted problems in Hellgate London, Call of Duty 4, Gears of War, Need for Speed Pro Street, and Crysis(These problems often consist of not just minor artifacts, but D3D not even working!). These second generation series cards can not even pass Direct x diagnostics with the current drivers. Some say that those users on "old" graphics cards should upgrade and its simply their fault for having outdated technology. This Bias is contrary to what is actually going on, the x800 series cards are perfectly capable of running most of these games at medium to high settings especially Call of Duty 4 and Hellgate London. The Second and Third Generation ATI graphics cards are often referred to as minimum requirements for these new games, and yet they are incredibly unstable right now. And as being listed under AMD/ATI's supported products list, these cards should work with the latest drivers, but they don't. These problems started roughly with the 7.9 Catalyst release (Back on November 10th). Today ATI released its 7.11 Catalyst set of drivers and still has not provided a solution for these second generation AGP cards.
See Read More for solutions:

Their are two methods to get around this problem.
The first and in my opinion best solution is Omega Drivers 7.10 Release. The omega drivers release is fully compatible with AGP.

According to Deluxe TNT over at Guru3d forums this method yields the following results:
Hellgate London: 100%
Call of duty 4: 100%
Gears of War: 100%
NFS pro street: High frame Stutter even with Frame Rates Above 50+ FPS
Crysis: Untested

The Second method is to install 7.7 Catalyst Drivers then copy the ati3duag.dll and ati3d1ag.dll(if u have this) from last working driver (7.8;7.x) in system32 to a temporary location. Next uninstall the 7.7 drivers and do a driver clean with driver cleaner pro. Then install 7.10 Catalyst drivers.Finally replace the 7.10 ati3duag.dll in safemode! with the one you copied to a temporary directory from 7.7 release.

See This solution here

According to Deluxe TNT over at Guru3d forums this method yields the following results:

Hellgate: Working but some low FPS
Call of duty 4: 100% ok
Gears of War: 100% ok
NFS Pro Street: untested.
Crysis: working but with bugs and terrible graphics

The best of luck to you who are toughing it out with x800 cards, hopefully AMD/ATI will help out the old AGP users soon. I hope this helps some of those select users with this major problem. Might I add a Personal Happy Turkey Day to those of you who live in the United States!Source: Guru 3d Forums
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63 Comments on AMD/ATI turns back on AGP users

#1
Widjaja
My AGP rig plays crysis with acceptable on medium/high @ 1024 X 768.
So its not AGP that is the issue here.

It's the X800 and lower because they are only SM2.0. (bar 2600XT don't know what going on there. . . .)
As Ket said SM3.0 is the norm now.

X800 series had thier hey day and they were kickass.
It's not just the drivers that are the issue for these cards, it's the game devs.
If they created thier games to be playable across the spectrum of GPUs, the game will not look anywhere near as good as they do now.
Posted on Reply
#2
Fuse-Wire
may be still on AGP that because i cant afford anything else, nothing wrong with my 9550, just cant play new games thats all and im not bothered, i can wait
Posted on Reply
#3
Batou1986
I find this whole thing strange but i think i know the exact reason that some agp cards don't work.

Cards like mine which have cores identical to there pci-e brethren hence why my core says pci-express on it but its an agp card.

The newer cards have what ati calls there rialto chip that does the conversion from pci-e to agp these cards seem to work fine as i have had 0 problems with mine.

Cards without these chip seem to be the ones affected because of some sort of change in card architecture.
Quoted from INQ: "Rialto is already in production and ATI will use it to bridge R430 and later on RV410 based cards. R430 based Radeon X800 cards are expected very soon, in March, while bridged X700 cards are coming approximately one month later."

So the only reason these cards do not work right is ati has decided to not bother re coding drivers to support cores before the R430 so this is purely ATi's fault not the the agp port itself

Anyone want to test to see if it is true infact that this issue only effects cards pre R430 with out the Rialto Chip
Posted on Reply
#4
irmuk
Ketxxx said:
Come on people... AGP had its run, stop whining. PCIE2 is here and people are still on AGP? :wtf: be serious. AGP cards are lacking in features now and any current games that do run on these cards (such as crysis) had to make a custom SM2 patch to even get the game to run, SM3 is the strong standard now, stop clinging to old technology thats had its day. I swear you hang on to it much longer you will be like all the ppl stil with 3dfx cards :p :D
Yes SM3.0 is the current norm for newer cards, but SM3.0 is NOT exclusive to PCI-e Cards. I have recently bought a X1650 Pro AGP 256MB GDDR3 with SM3.0. The Card is made by SAPPHIRE. They have and continue to sell AGP Cards upto at least the HD2600 Series at present.

http://www.sapphiretech.com/us/products/browseproducts.php?pcat=3

There are other company's that support AGP based on ATi hardware, but SAPPHIRE are the biggest AGP supporters.

I don't know if SAPPHIRE will try and support the NEW HD38xx (SM4.0 / DX10.1), but as they still sell ATI based AGP cards that have SM3.0 technology, I would FULLY expect ATI/AMD to continue to produce up-to-date Drivers for these cards.

Yes AGP is aging, but it's still going fairly strong. I would like to Upgrade to an newer PCI-e card, but it's not as straight forward as just buying a new card. I'd have to buy a NEW Motherboard, Processor, Memory, maybe even a power supply, Hard Drives and DVD Writer (to support SATA to replace another so called OBSOLETE technology EIDE/IDE or ATA/PATA). I still use a CRT monitor. I guess that's another piece of hardware you'd suggest I upgrade as its "OLD HAT".

This would be a MAJOR INVESTMENT, the likes of which, financially, I, and many, many others, cannot currently justify. So, whilst there's still NEWER AGP hardware around then I will continue to use it.
Posted on Reply
#5
imperialreign
I haven't used an AGP mobo in a long time, and the last AGP card I had was my VD3 . . .


but, what I don't get, though . . . if AGP is so certain to be a dead technology, why still make AGP components? Granted, it's becoming harder to find a good selection of motherboards which support AGP, but . . .

It's like when PCI took over ISA, I guess . . . change is enevitable.
Posted on Reply
#6
Jimmy 2004
The way I see it is that if ATI and its partners are still selling AGP cards, they should continue to support them adequately, and if not then they should stop providing drivers for AGP cards altogether rather than releasing unstable ones.

That said, I'm running an AGP X800 GTO (it came with 16 pipelines unlocked so it's essentially an X800 XL) and I have had no problems at all - I'm on the 7.10s at the moment, with no artifacts and DirectX passes with no problems. I even gave Crysis a go to see if there were any issues, and although it doesn't run particularly smoothly at the settings I've chosen, it most certainly works and the graphics look ok... I do have screenshots, but I doubt anyone's interested. ;)
Posted on Reply
#7
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
settings for my 7800GS and crysis

i dont know about you but for a AGP card thats not to damn bad beats out a bunch of PCI-e cards





i would have more SS but i had fraps sending them to my USB drive and it kinda maxed out :ohwell:
Posted on Reply
#8
lemonadesoda
Lopez0101 said:
Well, I don't think they'll go to Nvidia because they don't make ANY AGP versions of their new cards and haven't for a while. So I don't think ATi has much to worry about as far as people switching to another provider. ATi is doing more than Nvidia is concerning AGP.
LOL. AGP users today are potential customers for the HD3xxx and HD4xxx PCIev2 cards in the now and near future. WTF u talking about? If you dont care for your existing customers, they move. Nobody is saying they need to produce the latest technology on AGP. What IS BEING SAID is that they need to ensure that AGP cards that can be purchased today, or were bought within the last 12 months, have WORKING DRIVERS. If not, the people that bought those cards wont be buying again from the same provider. :nutkick:
Posted on Reply
#9
Widjaja
X1950pro & 7900GS should be the last of the AGP cards I believe.
Wer'e not coming down to the AGP interface after that.
Wer'e looking at the CPU bottleneck.
The CPU bottle neck on any card released after the X1950pro would be stupid.
I mean the CPU bottle neck on a P4 3.0Ghz HT is enough.

I believe the best option would be to get a motherboard with PCI-E interface and PCI-E card if you have a 939skt.

This way you don't have to get a whole new system until later.
One bonus is not being in the firing line of the people who own PCI-E systems.
If you want to be cool you can tell how the AGP users they are using an obselete interface and should just go buy a new PC even though you know they are only using it because they can't afford to buy a new PC.

j/k:shadedshu
Posted on Reply
#10
Ketxxx
Heedless Psychic
irmuk said:
Yes SM3.0 is the current norm for newer cards, but SM3.0 is NOT exclusive to PCI-e Cards. I have recently bought a X1650 Pro AGP 256MB GDDR3 with SM3.0. The Card is made by SAPPHIRE. They have and continue to sell AGP Cards upto at least the HD2600 Series at present.

http://www.sapphiretech.com/us/products/browseproducts.php?pcat=3

There are other company's that support AGP based on ATi hardware, but SAPPHIRE are the biggest AGP supporters.

I don't know if SAPPHIRE will try and support the NEW HD38xx (SM4.0 / DX10.1), but as they still sell ATI based AGP cards that have SM3.0 technology, I would FULLY expect ATI/AMD to continue to produce up-to-date Drivers for these cards.

Yes AGP is aging, but it's still going fairly strong. I would like to Upgrade to an newer PCI-e card, but it's not as straight forward as just buying a new card. I'd have to buy a NEW Motherboard, Processor, Memory, maybe even a power supply, Hard Drives and DVD Writer (to support SATA to replace another so called OBSOLETE technology EIDE/IDE or ATA/PATA). I still use a CRT monitor. I guess that's another piece of hardware you'd suggest I upgrade as its "OLD HAT".

This would be a MAJOR INVESTMENT, the likes of which, financially, I, and many, many others, cannot currently justify. So, whilst there's still NEWER AGP hardware around then I will continue to use it.
I wasnt saying AGP cards dont have SM3, just that AGP is now very dated, showing its age clearly in benchmarks, and that anyone with an AGP system has to accept its basically floating dead in the water. Its still there, but theres no progression for it, and it has no big future.
Posted on Reply
#11
InnocentCriminal
Resident Grammar Amender
Ketxxx said:
Come on people... AGP had its run, stop whining. PCIE2 is here and people are still on AGP? :wtf: be serious.
AGP won't die until manufacturers completely stop supporting the interface, it maybe ageing but it's not dead, there is still a lot of money to be made from people that can't afford a new system. Why is it whining that customers are slightly pissed off that their cards won't work on software they're supposed to be supported by? Plus, you're telling me that you gave up your PCIe motherboard and adopted PCIe2.0 straight away? Not everyone has money to splash out on the latest new components.
Posted on Reply
#12
Morgoth
i leave agp end 2008 then i jump on my Nehalem rig :) pci-e16x 2.0 :P
Posted on Reply
#13
erocker
Seriously guys, just blame Vista.
Posted on Reply
#14
Scrizz
my AGP x1950 worked fine..... until AMD took over... lol
Posted on Reply
#15
Davidelmo
That is the price you pay for being a PC gamer

But in return you get the fastest developing games with better gameplay and graphics than any console
Posted on Reply
#16
niko084
Disappointing in one sense and in the other... Pci-E has been out for some time now.... About as long as DDR2.....

It does kinda suck that they have stopped supporting AGP... But you can't really blame them... Pci-E 2.0 is out now even.... Thats getting close to putting AGP back by the standard Pc100-pc133 ram era...

It's technology, it moves forwards, companies can't be bothered to constantly upkeep outdated technology.

Although I do understand peoples pains here greatly myself even, owning a few AGP boards I still run... The time is coming for it to die.
Posted on Reply
#17
ex_reven
InnocentCriminal said:
AGP won't die until manufacturers completely stop supporting the interface, it maybe ageing but it's not dead, there is still a lot of money to be made from people that can't afford a new system. Why is it whining that customers are slightly pissed off that their cards won't work on software they're supposed to be supported by? Plus, you're telling me that you gave up your PCIe motherboard and adopted PCIe2.0 straight away? Not everyone has money to splash out on the latest new components.
But in the end run, PCI-e ends up more economical to the user.
If they buy an AGP based system because they dont want to spend a bit of extra cash, they are costing themselves more in the long run when it comes to upgrade.

lemonadesoda said:
LOL. AGP users today are potential customers for the HD3xxx and HD4xxx PCIev2 cards in the now and near future. WTF u talking about? If you dont care for your existing customers, they move.
Not really. They will probably goto the cheapest provider.
Posted on Reply
#18
Scrizz
The problem is: Should a company be allowed to release a product and not give support for it?
Posted on Reply
#19
ex_reven
Scrizz said:
The problem is: Should a company be allowed to release a product and not give support for it?
Depends how old it is i guess.
But that depends on your definition of support.

Are we talking minimum driver support, or the lot (drivers, help files, software packages etc)
Posted on Reply
#20
niko084
Scrizz said:
The problem is: Should a company be allowed to release a product and not give support for it?
Then the question is, if you expect them to continue to support it forever, are you prepared to pay $500 for what used to be $300....
Posted on Reply
#21
Widjaja
This is slightly off topic.
I feel sorry for the people who don't know anything about GPU's in NZ.
Even the retailers like the ones in this link trying to sell X8xxs
For people over in the US our exchange rate is 1 1/2 more than yours.
So these X8xx are selling for near and over $1000 US!
http://www.pricespy.co.nz/cat_16.html#g234

Are these reatilaer stuck in a time warp?!
Posted on Reply
#22
TheGuruStud
Actually, our dollar is so worthless that it really doesn't have to be too far off haha.
Gold is like 800/ounce, was 280 before bush ran us into the ground. Gold hasn't really increased in value. The USD is just that worthless.
Posted on Reply
#23
Widjaja
TheGuruStud said:
Actually, our dollar is so worthless that it really doesn't have to be too far off haha.
Gold is like 800/ounce, was 280 before bush ran us into the ground. Gold hasn't really increased in value. The USD is just that worthless.
Shit bush is funny.
He does and says some of the strangest things infront of so many people.
He has to be one of the most entertaning presidents.

Our priminister is a woman who looks like a man.
Even her voice is quite manly.
Wer'e quite a boring nation most of the time.

Our economy went up which made things cheaper but more expensive to export.
Good for me but not for the farmers.
Posted on Reply
#24
InnocentCriminal
Resident Grammar Amender
ex-reven
But in the end run, PCI-e ends up more economical to the user.
If they buy an AGP based system because they dont want to spend a bit of extra cash, they are costing themselves more in the long run when it comes to upgrade.
People that buy an AGP system now over a PCIe one are really stupid, in this sense I agree with you. It just doesn't make any financial sense to buy into old technology. However, I do disagree with you in the sense that if someone already has a relatively high-end AGP rig, & instead of wasting the components they already have they can just upgrade the GFX to a superior model. That's far more financially better in my mind than having to fork out for a new set up entirely. Some people may feel that it's a waste of money, others don't if they're happy with the performance gains it brings over their old card. If these people weren't happy, then they'd save up and spend what they can on a newer, PCIe based system.
Posted on Reply
#25
lemonadesoda
Believe it or not, not everyone buys their PC components on GAMING FPS only.

If I have a workstation for video editting/encoding, CAD, and photoshop. The FireGL X3 does 2x dual link for running 2 massive screens, and I want to render, or encode, or multi-task, and I can switch to QUAD CORE 2 using an Asrock board, without the need to replace my memory or GPU.

There is way too much emphasis on the term "GPU bottleneck", when, in every application except gaming, the bottleneck is the CPU.

The thread is about continued support to DEBUG THE DRIVERS of existing AGP cards. No-one is demanding the manufacturers to keep making the latest GPUs available on AGP.
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