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Who'll be the better president?

Who'll be the better president?

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 1,290 57.9%
  • John McCain

    Votes: 333 14.9%
  • But I want George W. Bush

    Votes: 177 7.9%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 429 19.2%

  • Total voters
    2,229
  • Poll closed .
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I'm stupid, and the thing that I remember from the debates most about "over there" is this:Obama wants to put more focus back on Afghanistan while McCain thinks we should stay the course in Iraq, and our victories there will trickle to Afghanistan.

you must have day dreamed that because Mccain never said that.
 
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McCain is in good health. In fact, we know more about McCain's health prior to office than any other previous President. A group of doctors examined 1100 pages of medical records from the past 8 years for 3 hours and found nothing that raises significant flags.

We know next to nothing about Obama. Obama's doctor released a brief one-page summary.


Most people are killed by what they don't know (cancer, blood clots, etc.) and we know less about Obama than we do McCain. In terms of health, McCain is the better pick.

And yes, I would trust a journalist more than a lawyer. Lawyers are professional liars. Their job is to convince a jury one way or another.

Well, these days a "journalist" does not exist - or they're rare to find. What you have now are news-readers and pitchmen that ought to be instead selling used cars instead of the crap they heap on the populous....
 
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well put john
also i believe you are the recipient of my 300th thanked post!
 
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yeah-obama hired ACORN to get out the vote... some precincts have more registered voters now than their entire population! :roll:

:twitch: I never even knew about the NUTS at Acorn till this Election.
4% of ALL mortgage payments go to ACORN:twitch::wtf: How did this happen?
 
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I shoulda requested non-FoxNews, but I'll bite.

No, maybe I won't -- it can't even get the first point right. There's still no evidence Obama has ever been an ACORN community organizer or trainer, and the video doesn't give any evidence of that, anyway, besides the word of this one guy.

Got anything else? Papers? Documentation?

Oh yeah, by the way -- McCain's got some definitive ties to ACORN, apparently (they say so themselves). :laugh:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Acorn_pushes_back_hugs_McCain.html?showall
 
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I shoulda requested non-FoxNews, but I'll bite.

No, maybe I won't -- it can't even get the first point right. There's still no evidence Obama has ever been an ACORN community organizer or trainer, and the video doesn't give any evidence of that, anyway, besides the word of this one guy.

Got anything else? Papers? Documentation?

Oh yeah, by the way -- McCain's got some definitive ties to ACORN, apparently (they say so themselves). :laugh:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Acorn_pushes_back_hugs_McCain.html?showall

Yes I travelled to Acorn did a congressional investigation :wtf:
CNN new the most liberal news medis in americahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkUKOSnv2zY
 
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Yes I travelled to Acorn did a congressional investigation :wtf:
CNN new the most liberal news medis in americahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkUKOSnv2zY

Yeah, doesn't give any evidence either, beyond talking about it.

Anything else? A newspaper article perhaps that maybe shows a document linking Obama with ACORN? If he's that much in league with them, I'm sure there's something out there, right?
 
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Yeah, doesn't give any evidence either, beyond talking about it.

Anything else? A newspaper article perhaps that maybe shows a document linking Obama with ACORN? If he's that much in league with them, I'm sure there's something out there, right?

okay if two recent news stations one liberal and one conservative aren't good enough, I will get back to ya. Do you have anything where Obama denies any relatonship with ACORN?


This is hardly non partisan but it will give you something to debunk it's from the GOPs web site http://www.gop.com/obamaacorntree/
 
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okay if two recent news stations one liberal and one conservative aren't good enough, I will get back to ya. Do you have anything where Obama denies any relatonship with ACORN?

It's not that either of those news reports were "good enough," it's that neither one did anything in the way of finding proof -- they merely talked about the issue. For example: I can talk about McCain being in league with Bin Laden himself, but unless I offer any proof, it doesn't mean anything.

It's not up to Obama to necessarily deny -- the burden of proof is up to those making the accusations. That's how discovery works. :D

But if you must have something, here you go: http://fightthesmears.com/articles/20/acornrumor
 
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okay if two recent news stations one liberal and one conservative aren't good enough, I will get back to ya. Do you have anything where Obama denies any relatonship with ACORN?


This is hardly non partisan but it will give you something to debunk it's from the GOPs web site http://www.gop.com/obamaacorntree/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27100918/

here is another article http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/7195


Parties wage war over voter fraud, intimidation
Democrats see vote suppression, McCain alleges fraud by Obama ally
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Oct. 10: Tempers are rising between Republican presidential candidate John McCain and his Democratic rival, Barack Obama. NBC’s Andrea Mitchell reports.
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Make predictions on news events
John McCain will win the presidency
Barack Obama will win the presidency

By Tom Curry
National affairs writer
MSNBC
updated 2:30 p.m. ET, Fri., Oct. 10, 2008


Tom Curry
National affairs writer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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WASHINGTON - The fiercest shouting match of this campaign season isn’t necessarily “vote for Obama!” versus “vote for McCain!”

In some states, it is “voter fraud!” versus “voter intimidation!”

Republicans allege Democrats and their allies are trying to subvert the voter registration system, and perhaps the election itself, with an avalanche of inaccurate or fraudulent new voter registrations.

Story continues below ↓
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But Democrats charge Republicans are trying to deter would-be voters by discouraging registrations and by requiring voters to identify themselves, in some cases with state-issued photo identification such as a driver’s license.

In one sense, this is simply the intense political combat one would expect to see three weeks before an election, with each side using an issue to fire up its loyal supporters.

But some election officials are struggling with substantial problems as they try to avoid a fiasco on Election Day, Nov. 4.

Republicans have made a group called ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, the chief villain in the home stretch of the campaign.

Their allegation: that ACORN has been flooding election officials in states from Nevada to Connecticut with thousands of erroneous and fraudulent voter registration forms.

In Jackson County, Missouri, (which includes Kansas City) election officials said this week that fraudulent registration forms had been handed in by ACORN canvassers.

Nevada raid on ACORN
In Las Vegas, investigators from the office of Nevada Secretary of State Ross Miller, a Democrat, served a search warrant Tuesday on the ACORN office, as part of an investigation into allegations of voter registration fraud. Miller’s agents seized computer hard drives and boxes of documents.

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Oct. 9: With 26 days to go before Election Day, NBC's Kelly O'Donnell and Lee Cowan report from the campaign trail.
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ACORN defended itself in the Nevada incident, saying its workers verify the information on new voter registration cards before turning them in to election officials.

But ACORN did acknowledge that some errors were made.

“While the vast majority of our voter registration canvassers do a great job, there have been several times over the past ten months that our Las Vegas Quality Control program has identified a canvasser who appears to have knowingly submitted a fake or duplicate application in order to pad his or her hours,” the group said in a statement.

It complained that “It was surprising that law enforcement officials appeared suddenly at our Las Vegas offices yesterday, because ACORN and its attorneys have already been proactive in providing information about problematic cards and any employee suspected of misconduct.”

President Bush won Nevada in 2004, but recent polls show Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain statistically tied in the state with his Democratic rival Sen. Barack Obama.

Obama ties to ACORN
Obama has long had ties to ACORN. In 1995, he was one of the attorneys who represented the group in a suit against the state of Illinois for not implementing the federal "Motor Voter" law which makes it easier for people to register as voters. And the ACORN political action committee has endorsed Obama.

Campaigning in Mosinee, Wisc., on Thursday, McCain responded to shouts of “ACORN!” in the crowd by saying, “There are serious allegations of voter fraud in the battleground states across America…. You’ve seen these are serious allegations, my friends, and they must be investigated, and they must be investigated immediately, and they must be stopped before November the 4th so Americans will not be deprived of a fair process in this election.”

Interactive

Decision 08 Dashboard
Maps and info: Previous electoral results

The co-chairman of the McCain advisory team in charge of monitoring alleged voter fraud, former Missouri Sen. John Danforth, hinted this week at potential post-Nov. 4 litigation if Obama wins due to suspect voters who had been registered by ACORN. “The contest could go on for a very long time,” he told reporters.

Danforth also said it would be “a nightmare in America” and “a total horror story” if Obama either wins or loses by a small margin “and the losing side believes it has been cheated.”

Offering a professional election official's view of last-minute “dumps” of new registration applications by groups such as ACORN was Doug Lewis, the executive director of the nonpartisan National Association of Election Officials, who testified before the House Judiciary Committee last month.

'It just screws up the system'
“This unfettered, unbounded, unregulated use of third-party registrations, where they sit on those registrations right until the end and try to turn them all in at the very last minute — it just screws up the system,” Lewis told the committee. “It disenfranchises voters. It's one of those things that just is frustrating to us as elections officials.”

Video


Youth view
Oct. 10: NBC's Luke Russert talks with NBC's Andrea Mitchell about concerns for new voters and a poll showing nearly a 3-to-1 preference for Barack Obama among young voters.
MSNBC


Lewis added that in his years as an election official he has seen both Democrats and Republicans “dumping in” new voter registration cards at the last minute before a state’s voter registration deadline. “The problem is that these groups all think that they're going to surprise the other campaign with how many people they've registered.”

This week the controversy reached as far as the usually non-political offices of the Social Security Administration.

The National Association of Secretaries of State (NASS) which represents most of the chief election officials in the states, urged Social Security Administration Commissioner Michael Astrue to postpone this weekend’s scheduled shutdown of his agency’s database, which most states use to verify new would-be voters’ names and identities.

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Explore the best in political news coverage, video and social networking. Ask questions. Post opinions.

State officials use the Social Security database when they cannot verify voters’ identity with drivers’ licenses or other state-issued identification cards.

The database shutdown is an annual event, done for maintenance.

In its letter to Astrue, NASS said that most states have voter registration deadlines “that fall a week before, the week of, or the week after the scheduled Computer Center shutdown. Holding all of these verifications until the system comes back online on October 13, 2008 could result in a tremendous surge of data.”

For his part, Astrue accused his critics of partisan motives: “I regret that people unfamiliar with the facts of this situation have sought to create a partisan issue where there is none.”


Click for related stories
Election officials: no voters illegally removed from rolls
Democrats driving for 60 Senate seats
Missouri officials see phony voter registrations


State officials have been reporting to NASS this week that there has been a slowdown in the Social Security database, which could create delays in verifying voter registrations.

The issues of registration and voting are sensitive in part due to the history of intimidation of black people seeking to register and vote, especially in the South, which led to the enactment of the 1965 Voting Rights Act.

CONTINUED : Democrats see 'voter suppression'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
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Clean up all that a bit, and I'll try to give it a read.

And thanks for the gop.com links -- at least they tried to make an effort. However, besides the legal work that Obama did for ACORN (hardly unusual -- he's a lawyer), there's still not much of a link.

1) Obama received donations from them -- candidates received donations from lots of different types of people. It's hardly an endorsement.

2) ACORN endorsed Obama -- that doesn't mean Obama endorses them.

3) Some stuff about community organizing -- the link doesn't really specify anything, just says that both Obama and ACORN do community organizing.

4) ACORN received some grants from somebody (a board of directors), and they in turn had connections to Obama (he once served on that board). What, are we playing "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" here? That's hardly a link.
 
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Clean up all that a bit, and I'll try to give it a read.

And thanks for the gop.com links -- at least they tried to make an effort. However, besides the legal work that Obama did for ACORN (hardly unusual -- he's a lawyer), there's still not much of a link.

1) Obama received donations from them -- candidates received donations from lots of different types of people. It's hardly an endorsement.

2) ACORN endorsed Obama -- that doesn't mean Obama endorses them.

3) Some stuff about community organizing -- the link doesn't really specify anything, just says that both Obama and ACORN do community organizing.

4) ACORN received some grants from somebody (a board of directors), and they in turn had connections to Obama (he once served on that board). What, are we playing "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" here? That's hardly a link.


read it yourself direct from MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27100918/
 
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Clean up all that a bit, and I'll try to give it a read.

And thanks for the gop.com links -- at least they tried to make an effort. However, besides the legal work that Obama did for ACORN (hardly unusual -- he's a lawyer), there's still not much of a link.

1) Obama received donations from them -- candidates received donations from lots of different types of people. It's hardly an endorsement.

2) ACORN endorsed Obama -- that doesn't mean Obama endorses them.

3) Some stuff about community organizing -- the link doesn't really specify anything, just says that both Obama and ACORN do community organizing.

4) ACORN received some grants from somebody (a board of directors), and they in turn had connections to Obama (he once served on that board). What, are we playing "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" here? That's hardly a link.


Obama doesn't denie that he was an instructor at Acorn nor does he denie he has worked with them. He denies he had anything to do with their voter fraud and that it.
 
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I shoulda requested non-FoxNews, but I'll bite.

No, maybe I won't -- it can't even get the first point right. There's still no evidence Obama has ever been an ACORN community organizer or trainer, and the video doesn't give any evidence of that, anyway, besides the word of this one guy.

Got anything else? Papers? Documentation?

Oh yeah, by the way -- McCain's got some definitive ties to ACORN, apparently (they say so themselves). :laugh:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Acorn_pushes_back_hugs_McCain.html?showall


show me. This I gotta see :rolleyes:
 
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read it yourself direct from MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27100918/

Just did -- it, too, gives no evidence of any link besides that which Obama has admitted himself (the legal work). As a matter of fact, it only talks about it for one tiny paragraph (about 4 or 5 lines) out of the whole article.

Obama doesn't denie that he was an instructor at Acorn nor does he denie he has worked with them. He denies he had anything to to with their voter fraud and that it.

Nope -- Obama has denied that he was an instructor, and has denied that he worked with them. (http://fightthesmears.com/articles/20/acornrumor) FightTheSmears.com is an official Obama site -- anything said there is pretty much an endorsement.

show me. This I gotta see :rolleyes:

Click the link. ;)
 
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Just did -- it, too, gives no evidence of any link besides that which Obama has admitted himself (the legal work). As a matter of fact, it only talks about it for one tiny paragraph (about 4 or 5 lines) out of the whole article.



Nope -- Obama has denied that he was an instructor, and has denied that he worked with them. (http://fightthesmears.com/articles/20/acornrumor) FightTheSmears.com is an official Obama site -- anything said there is pretty much an endorsement.



Click the link. ;)


oh so an official obama page makes it true so an official Mccain web sites would also make it true correct?
 
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Just did -- it, too, gives no evidence of any link besides that which Obama has admitted himself (the legal work). As a matter of fact, it only talks about it for one tiny paragraph (about 4 or 5 lines) out of the whole article.



Nope -- Obama has denied that he was an instructor, and has denied that he worked with them. (http://fightthesmears.com/articles/20/acornrumor) FightTheSmears.com is an official Obama site -- anything said there is pretty much an endorsement.



Click the link. ;)

and the two investigative news reports? They made it up then? If Obamas official web sites says it's un true then for sure it must be.
 
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And the full article:
ACORN to McCain: Have You Lost That Loving Feeling?

Senator Allied with ACORN as Recently as 2006, Now Turns Cold Shoulder

October 13, 2008, Miami, FL - U.S. Senator John McCain’s recent attacks on the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), are puzzling given his historic support for the organization and its efforts on behalf of immigrant Americans. As recently as February 20, 2006, Senator McCain was the keynote speaker at an ACORN-sponsored Immigration Rally in Miami, Florida at Miami Dade College - Wolfson Campus.

The rally, co-sponsored by ACORN in partnership with the New American Opportunity campaign (NAOC), Catholic League Services - Archdiocese of Miami, Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center, Florida Immigrant Coalition, Miami Dade College, People for the American Way/Mi Familia/Vota en Accion, the Service Employees International Union, and UNITE/HERE, was intended to call attention to the need for comprehensive immigration reform.

Senator McCain spoke at the rally attended by hundreds of ACORN members, most of whom were dressed in the red shirts typical of its members. Senator McCain’s speech focused on the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act, a bipartisan, comprehensive reform bill, which McCain sponsored with Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA).

Bertha Lewis, Chief Organizer of ACORN, said, “It has deeply saddened us to see Senator McCain abandon his historic support for ACORN and our efforts to support the goals of low-income Americans. Maybe it is out of desperation that Senator McCain has forgotten that he was for ACORN before he was against ACORN; he was for immigration reform before he was against immigration reform; and he was a maverick before he became erratic. We were thrilled to partner with him to help reform the outdated immigration laws in this country, and were pleased to work closely with him on this issue.”

Lewis continued, “We expected Senator McCain to support our efforts to give voice to millions of American’s who have never participated in an election before. We are surprised at his efforts to vilify an organization that, until recently, he saw as an ally. Maybe this surprise attack and change of heart is indicative of his state of mind, and the way he would govern.”

Senator McCain and his campaign have recently launched a series of coordinated attacks on ACORN, the nation’s largest community organization of low-and middle-income families.

Ms. Lewis went on to say that, “We are sure that the extremists he is trying to get into a froth will be even more excited to learn that John McCain stood shoulder to shoulder with ACORN, at an ACORN co-sponsored event, to promote immigration reform.”

Senator McCain was joined at the rally by Rep. Kendrick Meek (D-FL), Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-FL), leaders from both political parties, immigrant communities, and members of labor, business, and religious organizations.
 
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And the full article:
ACORN to McCain: Have You Lost That Loving Feeling?

Senator Allied with ACORN as Recently as 2006, Now Turns Cold Shoulder

October 13, 2008, Miami, FL - U.S. Senator John McCain’s recent attacks on the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), are puzzling given his historic support for the organization and its efforts on behalf of immigrant Americans. As recently as February 20, 2006, Senator McCain was the keynote speaker at an ACORN-sponsored Immigration Rally in Miami, Florida at Miami Dade College - Wolfson Campus.

The rally, co-sponsored by ACORN in partnership with the New American Opportunity campaign (NAOC), Catholic League Services - Archdiocese of Miami, Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center, Florida Immigrant Coalition, Miami Dade College, People for the American Way/Mi Familia/Vota en Accion, the Service Employees International Union, and UNITE/HERE, was intended to call attention to the need for comprehensive immigration reform.

Senator McCain spoke at the rally attended by hundreds of ACORN members, most of whom were dressed in the red shirts typical of its members. Senator McCain’s speech focused on the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act, a bipartisan, comprehensive reform bill, which McCain sponsored with Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA).

Bertha Lewis, Chief Organizer of ACORN, said, “It has deeply saddened us to see Senator McCain abandon his historic support for ACORN and our efforts to support the goals of low-income Americans. Maybe it is out of desperation that Senator McCain has forgotten that he was for ACORN before he was against ACORN; he was for immigration reform before he was against immigration reform; and he was a maverick before he became erratic. We were thrilled to partner with him to help reform the outdated immigration laws in this country, and were pleased to work closely with him on this issue.”

Lewis continued, “We expected Senator McCain to support our efforts to give voice to millions of American’s who have never participated in an election before. We are surprised at his efforts to vilify an organization that, until recently, he saw as an ally. Maybe this surprise attack and change of heart is indicative of his state of mind, and the way he would govern.”

Senator McCain and his campaign have recently launched a series of coordinated attacks on ACORN, the nation’s largest community organization of low-and middle-income families.

Ms. Lewis went on to say that, “We are sure that the extremists he is trying to get into a froth will be even more excited to learn that John McCain stood shoulder to shoulder with ACORN, at an ACORN co-sponsored event, to promote immigration reform.”

Senator McCain was joined at the rally by Rep. Kendrick Meek (D-FL), Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-FL), leaders from both political parties, immigrant communities, and members of labor, business, and religious organizations.

source please?. Also I once ran in the US bank 5k run does that mean I work for US bank? They sponsored it (bit of a stretch eh). If I raced in the viagra 500 does that mean I use viagra?:laugh:
 
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and the two investigative news reports? They made it up then? If Obamas official web sites says it's un true then for sure it must be.

I wasn't giving Obama's website as a testament of truth -- you asked for an "official denying," and I gave one.

The news reports didn't make anything up -- but they didn't give anymore evidence of any official Obama-ACORN link other than that Obama himself claims on his site.
 
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source please?. Also I once ran in the US bank 5k run does that mean I work for US bank? They sponsored it (bit of a stretch eh). If I raced in the viagra 500 does that mean I use viagra?:laugh:

Well, perhaps McCain's ties to ACORN are no more concrete than Obama's? :rolleyes:

If this new revelation of a McCorn-ACORN link leads to this matter being dropped, both candidates will be the better off for it.

Maybe now they'll stick to issues, and stop with the baseless accusations.
 
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source please?. Also I once ran in the US bank 5k run does that mean I work for US bank? They sponsored it (bit of a stretch eh). If I raced in the viagra 500 does that mean I use viagra?:laugh:

sharpynews or something. No idea if the thing is legit but it does make you think. To be honest it was most likely a stunt to secure some kind of funding, just like Obama has done:

ACORN: oi come here and talk and we'll give you one million dollars

OBAMA/McCAIN: ACORN ARE NICE PEOPLE.... can i go now?

ACORN: NO, CARRY ON

O/M: er ACORN like to help people?

ACORN: thats better here you go, oh and btw if you support us then that'll be great, may even be a little something in it for you

O/M: errrrrr sure



a little far fetched but the idea is plausible.

From what i have read ACORN are for equality amongst the poor, is that not a good thing? does it matter if they commit a "crime" to gain the greater good?

(If i have been reading bias literature and this is way off please just say lol)
 
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So, to sum up the last few posts:
-we have evidence of McCain speaking at an ACORN rally in 2006, and Obama representing ACORN in a legal case in 1995.

anything else evidentiary?
 
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