Who'll be the better president?

[Bigjohn]

Yah, they are.. unlike what SICKO mikey moore says...
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/socialized_medicine_is_broken.html

The fact is, government does not EXCEL at anything but being average... and getting average things for more than they're worth, some times. The constitution dictates what government should do, and this (along with half the legislation out there) is so far out of bounds that it's scary.

 

[mdm-adph]

I'm sure you can find examples of anything and everything (heck, there's stories out there about US citizens traveling from the US to India for health care -- look, I can Google too! [source]). This doesn't make it the norm, and your few examples don't really bolster your argument any.

And, really, it's too bad that government-run "average" UK health care is still loads better than what more than 45 million US citizens get (which is nothing -- since they're uninsured and either go without healthcare or risk going to an emergency room and being in debt for the rest of their lives). Read about it here -- it's a US government website. (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_67745.html)

Try again.

 

[SK-1]

From what I have read ,when the government takes over health care, all doctors will become salaried, the average Family Doctor will make about 1/3 of what they do today and insurance for malpractice will STILL be up to the doctor. Who would go to medical school 6 to 10 years for this?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[mdm-adph]

From what I have read ,when the government takes over health care, all doctors will become salaried, the average Family Doctor will make about 1/3 of what they do today and insurance for malpractice will STILL be up to the doctor. Who would go to medical school 6 to 10 years for this?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

The fact that doctors still exist, people aren't dying in droves, and medical schools are still packed in countries with nationalized health care -- and the last I checked, that was most countries other than the US -- is all the proof you need that you might be wrong.

Apparently, even when the government runs healthcare, it's still more profitable to be a doctor than a ditch-digger. Who woulda knew?

You might want to maybe travel to some of these European countries (or Japan, or New Zealand, or anywhere) that you deride all the time and try looking around. You'll notice that people are generally happy and healthy, and the streets aren't filled with dying people or homeless druggies.

Besides Holland, of course.

(I joke, I joke! I love ya, Netherlands, but you got a junkie problem there -- I've seen it with my own eyes. )

(You still have better healthcare than the US, of course.)

 

[SK-1]

Apparently, even when the government runs healthcare, it's still more profitable to be a doctor than a ditch-digger. Who woulda knew?

6-8 year Ditch Digger degree,...sign me up.

"The fact that doctors still exist, people aren't dying in droves, and medical schools are still packed in countries with nationalized health care -- and the last I checked, that was most countries other than the US -- is all the proof you need that you might be wrong."

But they are here?

Spread the wealth baby!!.... http://www.breitbart.tv/html/195153.html

 

[Bigjohn]

I'm sure you can find examples of anything and everything (heck, there's stories out there about US citizens traveling from the US to India for health care -- look, I can Google too! [source]). This doesn't make it the norm, and your few examples don't really bolster your argument any.

And, really, it's too bad that government-run "average" UK health care is still loads better than what more than 45 million US citizens get (which is nothing -- since they're uninsured and either go without healthcare or risk going to an emergency room and being in debt for the rest of their lives). Read about it here -- it's a US government website. (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_67745.html)

Try again.

45 million is statistical bullshit.
18 million of those are ILLEGAL ALIENS - they don't deserve it, they're here criminally.
another 10+ million have MSA's. Because MSA's are not "traditional employer paid" health plans, Obama won't count them.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

45 million is statistical bullshit.
18 million of those are ILLEGAL ALIENS - they don't deserve it, they're here criminally.
another 10+ million have MSA's. Because MSA's are not "traditional employer paid" health plans, Obama won't count them.

Additionally, how many million don't want health insurance? Some people are wealthy enough to afford the health bills no matter the cost (the types that could own a clinc/hospital if the mood strikes them). Others hate modern healthcare and stick to remedies nature provides--they would rather die than go to an ER.


Switching gears...


I've noticed a trend in every debate. That is, no one listens to McCain except Republicans and Obama is obsessed with three words and a phrase: eight, four, Bush, and "middle class."

How about we see who we agree with more from a third party source that lists all the positions of Presidential and Vice Presidential runners:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/


Me, I agree with McCain on practically everything listed there so the choice is obvious for me. That is, he is a reformer and a man of his word. Healthcare, education, social security, medicaid/medicare, banking/lenders, and Congressional spending are all in desperate need of reform. I feel that Obama likes to talk about reforming some of these things but has not the drive, ambition, tenacity, nor leadership to carry through should he meet much opposition by the few Republicans left in Congress. Washington D.C. has ignored the inevitable for far too long. I am confident McCain will pick up that hatchet and use it; I am not confident that Obama is just saying these things, with no intention to carry through, just to get your vote (like so many Presidential runners before him). On that note, I will end quoting McCain: "I would rather lose an election than lose a war."

 

[DaedalusHelios]

I am driving people to polls in the coming days for early voting so I might not be on this thread as much. Last debate is over and I believe the debates were a success. Good to see democracy in action.

I am voting for Obama. I suggest others to do the same.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I am voting for Obama. I suggest others to do the same.

And I don't. The last thing we need is a single party controlling the House, Senate, and Presidency. I don't even want to fathom the consequences. Let me just say this: If that does come to fruition, Yin killed Yang. :|

 

[DaedalusHelios]

Look at the numbers in all the reputable polls. Obama will win unless Diebold and its subsidiaries decide to alter election results. We have states that haven't voted democrat since the 70's slightly in Obamas favor. Times are changing.

Diebold makes the majority of the voting machines and also maintains them. They donate large amounts to the GOP every year. Thats conflict of interest in favor of the republicans in almost every state.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Lots of people wrote McCain's obituary during the primaries and were wrong. It's not over 'til it's over.

 

[DaedalusHelios]

I don't think McCain will die between now and then. If he wins I don't want Palin as president. That would be awful. Might as well elect Rove over Palin.

McCain dying would be awful if he won the election. Palin would be the worst president the US would ever see.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Congrats, you're 1337! XD

I don't think McCain will die between now and then. If he wins I don't want Palin as president. That would be awful. Might as well elect Rove over Palin.

McCain dying would be awful if he won the election. Palin would be the worst president the US would ever see.

The way I see it, the situation is dire either way. Either Obama gets elected and the country spends itself into self-destruction or McCain gets elected and he has to spend most of his time rallying Democrats to his cause just trying to get anything done. Should McCain not be able to serve, I suspect Palin won't be inclined to do that. As such, the worst it could get if Palin does become President is the Legislative branch gets clogged up; however, if the Democrats can get a 60% majority, Palin will be overridden no matter what so all she can do is appoint people and author budgets. I think she is more than capable of both (as proven by her gubernatorial career). She could make for the best President in history--that chapter has yet to be written. I am not one to judge but I do believe that an 80% approval rating in Alaska has to be worth something.

And, ehm, McCain, Palin, Obama, or Biden dying would be awful no matter how they do in this election.

 

[magibeg]

Go forth and vote for Obama. The rest of the world likes him because hes actually not an idiot.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Go forth and vote for Obama. The rest of the world likes him because hes actually not an idiot.

Please, quantify that. I have seen little out of him that isn't scripted. Sorry, there is no script for the events that are yet to happen.

 

[magibeg]

Please, quantify that. I have seen little out of him that isn't scripted. Sorry, there is no script for the events that are yet to happen.

Graduating 5th from the bottom of a class of 700+ is usually a good hint that perhaps McCain isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

That was in 1958. I don't think I have to spell out how much he has changed in the last 50 years.

Quote:
Man of the People by Paul Alexander (copyright 2004), page 207:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0471475459/?tag=tec06d-20
"McCain scored 128 and then 133 on IQ tests."


Mind you, because of being in a military family, he also went school hopping. He never received a great K-12 education.

 

[magibeg]

Of course that also leads to how old McCain is. Also in directly debates he doesn't seem to do as well, and thats not scripted.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

McCain is only one year older (72) than when the "The Great Communicator" (Reagan) was sworn in. He has a lot of fight left in him.

I was one of many to shake his hand here in Iowa, back in Fall 2007. At the time, I disagreed with him only on the recommitment to nuclear power. I agree with him now because, as long as we are careful, it is the cleanest form of energy, available today, that is dependable.


He has done very well in all three debates, especially the third. My conclusion is that it doesn't matter what McCain says, people are only interested in what Obama says, for whatever reason. For instance, in the first two debates, people thought McCain was more negative when in fact, the transcripts show Obama was far more negative than McCain. In the second debate, Obama said his opponent's name 45 times, McCain 33 times. It is very rare in politics for opponents to ever say the other's name ending in a positive outcome--it's always a direct attack or quickly followed by a "but."

 

[TUngsten]

The way I see it, the situation is dire either way. Either Obama gets elected and the country spends itself into self-destruction or McCain gets elected and he has to spend most of his time rallying Democrats to his cause just trying to get anything done.

As far as I can tell, the republicans have already spent us to the brink of self-destruction with their ignorant and careless policy choices and otherworldly amounts of spending. It's been the most pathetic administration I've seen in my 36 years. I'm embarrassed to call myself an American when I look at the things our government has done these past 8 years.

And people complain so much about taxes here, yet americans have lower federal taxes than much of the world. The federal gov't taxes aren't my real concern, it's the state taxes that kill me. Property tax on my car, house, everything I buy...

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I'm not going to defend Bush's lack of exercising the veto power. Need I remind you, Bush is not running right now.

We get taxed many times--federal, state, local, and all the specifics under those. Federal is comparatively lower than the rest, as you stated. The only thing I can suggest about state (CT) taxes is to get Republicans elected. State will always be higher than federal because it covers a lot more ground but, some states have a lot lower taxes than others. You'd have to move a long ways away to find a mostly Republican controlled state though. The New England region is densely populated compared to the rest of the nation (less California).

 

[zOaib]

McCain is only one year older (72) than when the "The Great Communicator" (Reagan) was sworn in. He has a lot of fight left in him.

I was one of many to shake his hand here in Iowa, back in Fall 2007. At the time, I disagreed with him only on the recommitment to nuclear power. I agree with him now because, as long as we are careful, it is the cleanest form of energy, available today, that is dependable.


He has done very well in all three debates, especially the third. My conclusion is that it doesn't matter what McCain says, people are only interested in what Obama says, for whatever reason. For instance, in the first two debates, people thought McCain was more negative when in fact, the transcripts show Obama was far more negative than McCain. In the second debate, Obama said his opponent's name 45 times, McCain 33 times. It is very rare in politics for opponents to ever say the other's name ending in a positive outcome--it's always a direct attack or quickly followed by a "but."

Mcain and Sarah Palin are a sinking duo ............ and they are pure Bushites , that is my conclusion =)

That was in 1958. I don't think I have to spell out how much he has changed in the last 50 years.

Quote:
Man of the People by Paul Alexander (copyright 2004), page 207:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0471475459/?tag=tec06d-20
"McCain scored 128 and then 133 on IQ tests."


Mind you, because of being in a military family, he also went school hopping. He never received a great K-12 education.

people dont change , they put a new mask on , if you are this naive about politicians may GOD help us all .

I don't think McCain will die between now and then. If he wins I don't want Palin as president. That would be awful. Might as well elect Rove over Palin.

McCain dying would be awful if he won the election. Palin would be the worst president the US would ever see.

and the conservatives deserve it too , if they so choose to vote for them.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Mcain and Sarah Palin are a sinking duo ............ and they are pure Bushites , that is my conclusion =)

Bush did little to reform anything except phone tapping. McCain and Palin both have a history of reform in campaign financing, energy, climate change, and to a lesser extent, financial systems. He made it clear today he wants to extend reform to all parts of government including healthcare, education, and special needs. If he gets elected, this will be four of the busiest years in USA history. I'm hopeful he could accomplish a lot but it really depends on the Congressional Democrats' willingness to support "change" they talk about so much. Of that, I'm a skeptic.

Obama will have no problem signing anything Reid and Pelosi push their their respective houses of Congress with more candy attached than found in Wonka's Candy Factory. That's what really concerns me. Who will keep the trio in check? Are we really willing to throw checks and balances to the wind? I'm not.

people dont change , they put a new mask on , if you are this naive about politicians may GOD help us all .

McCain hasn't added any earmarks after the Keating Five incident. Also, most Republicans say McCain eight years ago is not the same McCain today because of the personal attacks Bush launched at him. He almost changed to the Democratic party in the few years that followed. Ever since that election cycle, the fire from McCain is now just a smoldering flame. Kind of sad, but still a great man and more electable to boot.

 

[btarunr]

I just watched the 3rd debate. One part I felt where both of them missed the bus was uplifting the education system. Why do they think splashing money and hiking fares for teachers, student financial benefits, etc as solutions? Pretty lame. American statesmen should try to target the very base of youth, if they wish to reform the way American kids go about with education.

Americans ruled the the scientific and tech community in the '50s thru '70s until the whole "get high, drunk laid, get a life" ideology cropped up during the '70s. The way I see kids romanticizing TV, "OMG Internets", video games, cult music, etc., get to odd jobs when you're ready to work, this won't change. I don't see how splashing more money is going to help. Kids will use their better financial state to buy more crack. Bring back the old methods of schooling. If you've not done your homework, get ready to get caned. The Catholic school I went to, the nuns would adapt corporal punishment. Calculators are illegal till you're into under-graduation. Achievers are rewarded better, there's increased competition. Seriously, your "reformers", and "messiahs of change" should look at changing the system, not splashing more money and expect things to fall in place. My physics teacher in school worked for $1500 /month, yet he's managed to churn out more IIT (Indian for MIT) graduates than anyone in this part of the country.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Why do they think splashing money and hiking fares for teachers, student financial benefits, etc as solutions? ... I don't see how splashing more money is going to help. ... Seriously, your "reformers", and "messiahs of change" should look at changing the system, not splashing more money and expect things to fall in place.

Heh, you proved my point that no one pays attention to McCain. I'll quote McCain from that very same debate:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/15/debate.transcript/index.html
And I will support those reforms, and I will fund the ones that are reformed. But I'm not going to continue to throw money at a problem. And I've got to tell you that vouchers, where they are requested and where they are agreed to, are a good and workable system. And it's been proven.

It's Obama that wants to "throw money at the problem."

Details, for reference:
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ce50b5-daa8-4795-b92d-92bd0d985bca.htm