Does the economic crisis affect you?

[Castiel]

The economy here in Texas is really good. I'm not saying that nothing has changed, but we aren't really affected, I don't know why. My mom works at a Church and she really isn't affected. But I am scared what might happen. I work a movie theater, and alot of people still come so I don't think I will be affected. I just hope that Obama will get to work and save this country and stop worrying about his blackberry. I just have to say that I hope everyone could hang in there and hope that all of us in the world would learn from the past and save money and think about how they would run there country.

The market fell in the 80's and we came back from that and I hope we can do it again.

 

[TheMailMan78]

The economy here in Texas is really good. I'm not saying that nothing has changed, but we aren't really affected, I don't know why. My mom works at a Church and she really isn't affected. But I am scared what might happen. I work a movie theater, and alot of people still come so I don't think I will be affected. I just hope that Obama will get to work and save this country and stop worrying about his blackberry. I just have to say that I hope everyone could hang in there and hope that all of us in the world would learn from the past and save money and think about how they would run there country.

The market fell in the 80's and we came back from that and I hope we can do it again.

It fell out in the 30s and the 70s too. Its just how things work. Problem is we all live in a "Microwave" world now and expect everything to be fixed instantly.

 

[El Fiendo]

It fell out in the 30s and the 70s too. Its just how things work. Problem is we all live in a "Microwave" world now and expect everything to be fixed instantly.

Agreed. Anyone else notice the roughly 40 year frequency? Anyone else ever heard that the free market system runs on a cycle? Sure it fluctuates more than that in between times and to not as great extents, but there are always times of extreme wealth and times of extreme lows.

 

[Ongaku]

all this crap happening doesn't affect me at all...I have no debt, no credit cards, no job It's just like last winter, bf gets unemployment in winter, back to work in spring, and I don't believe he will lose his job, his profession is an important part of Obama's infrastructure program

 

[proletariandan]

So the old Cubans that survived the bay of pigs would have ruthlessly massacred their own people?!? Ill ask one at lunch. He works in our accounting.

FYI I'm from Miami. I work with Cubans or Colombians, Peruvians, Salvadorians, Guatemalans everyday. My boss is from El Salvador. I'm the only gringo in the entire company and I'v been to the countries you just mentioned. If your going to use south and central America as an example you picked the wrong guy to argue with.

Not familiar with what happened in Guatemala after Arbenz was overthrown? Maybe you should ask one of the Guatemalans you work with about the tens of thousands of peasants who were murdered by their US-backed military government.

Is that so? I've spent the better part of the last three years studying the history and politics of Latin America. Books can never tell the whole story, but I'll trust them over a handful of anecdotes any day.

 

[Castiel]

It fell out in the 30s and the 70s too. Its just how things work. Problem is we all live in a "Microwave" world now and expect everything to be fixed instantly.

Thats exactly true. Were just going to have to all work together and wait to get things done.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Not familiar with what happened in Guatemala after Arbenz was overthrown? Maybe you should ask one of the Guatemalans you work with about the tens of thousands of peasants who were murdered by their US-backed military government.

Is that so? I've spent the better part of the last three years studying the history and politics of Latin America. Books can never tell the whole story, but I'll trust them over a handful of anecdotes any day.

So you would trust books over people who lived through your beloved socialism? People who saw first hand Castro's men kill their families in their own yards for fun? Live through a civil war in Nicaragua? Survived the jungles of El Salvador? I'm glad you spent 3 years being brain washed in your little frosted Chicago home but I'v been to these countries and Ill tell you they are no place to live. You talk of campesino as if you know the first thing of their plight. I work with them EVERYDAY. Iv seen the scars. Iv been to their homes. Please your little books might seem very cute but in the real world people died and still do.

When your done with your little studies please come to Miami. Ill introduce you to some of the victims of your ideals. Have you ever met someone whos family was wiped out in the name of the "revolution" and then ended up floating 90 miles in shark infested waters so he could literally survive? I'm sorry sir but your clueless.

 

[Silverel]

Not familiar with what happened in Guatemala after Arbenz was overthrown? Maybe you should ask one of the Guatemalans you work with about the tens of thousands of peasants who were murdered by their US-backed military government.

Is that so? I've spent the better part of the last three years studying the history and politics of Latin America. Books can never tell the whole story, but I'll trust them over a handful of anecdotes any day.

So you would trust books over people who lived through your beloved socialism? People who saw first hand Castro's men kill their families in their own yards for fun? Live through a civil war in Nicaragua? Survived the jungles of El Salvador? I'm glad you spent 3 years being brain washed in your little frosted Chicago home but I'v been to these countries and Ill tell you they are no place to live. You talk of campesino as if you know the first thing of their plight. I work with them EVERYDAY. Iv seen the scars. Iv been to their homes. Please your little books might seem very cute but in the real world people died and still do.

When your done with your little studies please come to Miami. Ill introduce you to some of the victims of your ideals. Have you ever met someone whos family was wiped out in the name of the "revolution" and then ended up floating 90 miles in shark infested waters so he could literally survive? I'm sorry sir but your clueless.

I don't even know what you two guys are arguing about, or why. It's just e-peen posturing at this point. :shadedshu

 

[El Fiendo]

Validity of Socialism and its spawning of dictatorships (gotta admit, Socialism is what, 4 for 4 in major scenarios of it?) and its treatment of its people vs. other Governments whether legitimately formed or 'backed by the friendly US'.

 

[proletariandan]

So you would trust books over people who lived through your beloved socialism? People who saw first hand Castro's men kill their families in their own yards for fun? Live through a civil war in Nicaragua? Survived the jungles of El Salvador? I'm glad you spent 3 years being brain washed in your little frosted Chicago home but I'v been to these countries and Ill tell you they are no place to live. You talk of campesino as if you know the first thing of their plight. I work with them EVERYDAY. Iv seen the scars. Iv been to their homes. Please your little books might seem very cute but in the real world people died and still do.

When your done with your little studies please come to Miami. Ill introduce you to some of the victims of your ideals. Have you ever met someone whos family was wiped out in the name of the "revolution" and then ended up floating 90 miles in shark infested waters so he could literally survive? I'm sorry sir but your clueless.

And you think you're an expert because you've talked to a handful of Latin Americans? You think I've never met a Latin American or anyone else who has lived in these places? Funny that you call what happened in Nicaragua a 'civil war' and not a US-funded terrorist campaign against a democratically elected government.

 

[mmaakk]

I still have my job, but is sad. Everyday you heard news and somebody else you know lost the job. :shadedshu

 

[DarkMatter]

So you would trust books over people who lived through your beloved socialism? People who saw first hand Castro's men kill their families in their own yards for fun? Live through a civil war in Nicaragua? Survived the jungles of El Salvador? I'm glad you spent 3 years being brain washed in your little frosted Chicago home but I'v been to these countries and Ill tell you they are no place to live. You talk of campesino as if you know the first thing of their plight. I work with them EVERYDAY. Iv seen the scars. Iv been to their homes. Please your little books might seem very cute but in the real world people died and still do.

When your done with your little studies please come to Miami. Ill introduce you to some of the victims of your ideals. Have you ever met someone whos family was wiped out in the name of the "revolution" and then ended up floating 90 miles in shark infested waters so he could literally survive? I'm sorry sir but your clueless.

It is you who is clueless my friend. Never heard of Pinochet, Stroessner, Videla? Franco? Operation Condor tells you something? It's so convenient for you and your point that you don't seem to know anyone from Chile, Paraguay, Argentina... Or even Spain.

 

[TheMailMan78]

It is you who is clueless my friend. Never heard of Pinochet, Stroessner, Videla? Franco? Operation Condor tells you something? It's so convenient for you and your point that you don't seem to know anyone from Chile, Paraguay, Argentina... Or even Spain.

I work with people from Argentina, Spain and Chile however I don't think Iv met anyone from Paraguay. I wonder how many Americans risk their lives to flee to Paraguay or even Argentina? They all seem to be working here in the states. I guess socialism is so great they couldn't take how awesome it was and relocated their whole family to Miami.

Let me ask my socialist friends a few questions. I want clear answers to. No rhetoric.

1. If everyone is "equal" and receives equal treatment and pay under your so trustworthy government what is your motivation to be innovative and work hard?

2. Can you start off on government aid maybe even living in the streets and end up a millionaire and continue to grow under Socialism?

3. Have any of you ever been to these "beacons" of Socialism?

4. Franco was a bastard. He killed tons of people without a doubt. However when people fled his wrath how come so many came to the states?

 

[Deleted member 3]

In my political world you only get to vote if you are me. I vote for going back on topic.

 

[proletariandan]

Let me ask my socialist friends a few questions. I want clear answers to. No rhetoric.

1. If everyone is "equal" and receives equal treatment and pay under your so trustworthy government what is your motivation to be innovative and work hard?

2. Can you start off on government aid maybe even living in the streets and end up a millionaire and continue to grow under Socialism?

3. Have any of you ever been to these "beacons" of Socialism?

4. Franco was a bastard. He killed tons of people without a doubt. However when people fled his wrath how come so many came to the states?

1. The same as it is under capitalism; material reward (or something equivalent) plus the knowledge that your work benefits society as a whole instead of shareholders and executives. There is plenty of innovation in the US public sector - that is where microchips and networking (the internet, to name only two) were developed. I don't think that a janitor and a doctor should make the same amount of money/compensation, but I do think that everyone should have an equal opportunity to become a doctor/engineer/scientist/etc. There is plenty of innovation in Cuba, even though scientists and doctors make less than cabbies and waiters. Want to explain that one to me? Guess they're afraid of being executed or jailed so they still work hard, right?

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/cuba.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0417/p14s03-stct.html

2. I'm not worried about millionaires under socialism.

3. What beacons? The only country I mentioned in passing was Cuba and I never called it a 'beacon.' I simply stated what is well known to open minded people - Cuba has achieved unprecedented success in education, healthcare, biotech, and environmental conservation as far as the third world goes. I do hope to go there soon, its too bad my government doesn't grant me the freedom to go see how horrible it is for myself

4. Many people, especially leftists, fled to Cuba both before and after the revolution. I'm guessing many more people went to other European countries than to the US. Hell, the US helped Franco come to power by embargoing the Republic and allowing US corporations to sell supplies to the Fascists. The only aid the Republic got from the United States were private, illegal donations and the International Brigades sent by the Communist Party.

 

[TheMailMan78]

In my political world you only get to vote if you are me. I vote for going back on topic.

Vote passed. All hail the sheep lover.

 

[mdm-adph]

Let me ask my socialist friends a few questions. I want clear answers to. No rhetoric.

1. If everyone is "equal" and receives equal treatment and pay under your so trustworthy government what is your motivation to be innovative and work hard?

2. Can you start off on government aid maybe even living in the streets and end up a millionaire and continue to grow under Socialism?

3. Have any of you ever been to these "beacons" of Socialism?

4. Franco was a bastard. He killed tons of people without a doubt. However when people fled his wrath how come so many came to the states?

Okay, I had to bite, even though I don't call myself a socialist:

1) If you have to ask that question, you'll never understand. Believe it or not, some people love to create just for the love of creation.

2) Once again, believe it or not, some people want more in life than to just become a millionaire. :shadedshu

3) What countries are you talking about? Many people in this forum come from all over the world, enjoying all sorts of benefits of all sorts of things (the most important one being a national health system that US citizens lack).

4) The wonderful food?

Vote passed. All hail the sheep lover.

There's no need to make fun of the Dutch and their love of sheep. I have some Dutch relatives -- they're good people, if a little snooty.

 

[TheMailMan78]

mdm-adph I'm kinda done with the debate. Dan pointed out it was off topic and I don't feel like getting butt raped by a mod today. So Ill just agree to disagree with ya

FYI I respect your opinion as we have debated before.

 

[mdm-adph]

Hey -- as far as I see it, socialism is an economic topic, and a thing sure to be increasingly relevant in the coming months/years as the economic slump of the world gets worse. As long as we keep the topics generally economic in scale (and the tempers in check), I'm sure the mods won't mind.

Please, do continue with the debate, as I do enjoy debating things, even if we differ on things.

 

[btarunr]

The problem with political debates is that they require constant vigil

Politics isn't entirely responsible for the state of world economy, socialism had no hand in it. That being said, IMHO, socialism doesn't have the answers to the problems at hand, and hence doesn't deserve debates on (political ideologies).

 

[mdm-adph]

The problem with political debates is that they require constant vigil

Politics isn't entirely responsible for the state of world economy, socialism had no hand in it. That being said, IMHO, socialism doesn't have the answers to the problems at hand, and hence doesn't deserve debates on (political ideologies).

I agree that these political debates can get out of hand (why do they keep being created here, anyway?).

However, are you really sure of what you said?

Politics drives regulation. Regulations drives business. Business drives the economy.

Without regulation in business you eventually get feudalism. With too much regulation you have no business. It's one or the other.

I would definitely argue that the political climate present during a downturn in the economy definitely has a hand in things.

 

[DarkMatter]

I work with people from Argentina, Spain and Chile however I don't think Iv met anyone from Paraguay. I wonder how many Americans risk their lives to flee to Paraguay or even Argentina? They all seem to be working here in the states. I guess socialism is so great they couldn't take how awesome it was and relocated their whole family to Miami.

Let me ask my socialist friends a few questions. I want clear answers to. No rhetoric.

1. If everyone is "equal" and receives equal treatment and pay under your so trustworthy government what is your motivation to be innovative and work hard?

2. Can you start off on government aid maybe even living in the streets and end up a millionaire and continue to grow under Socialism?

3. Have any of you ever been to these "beacons" of Socialism?

4. Franco was a bastard. He killed tons of people without a doubt. However when people fled his wrath how come so many came to the states?

Frist of all, that has nothing to do with my post, which was only suggesting there's benn more and worse capitalist dictators than socialist dictators. Economics have nothing to do with what a dictator is and does.

Anyway:

1. Recognition, love from the people around you? Te simple congratulation of doing things well. Hell, I know we can't explain this to you, people like you. Money is not everything.

2. The simple fact you need to ask that, tells the sad story about your mentality. Money is not everything.

3. Yes. And were much better places than capitalist "beacons". Much more educated and kind people. Happier people. If only they were not exploited by capitalist "beacons" and were given the oportunity to grow...

4. People from poor countries always migrate to more advanced ones, no matter which economic model they follow. Franco left the country destroyed, people migrated much more often while he was in power, to many countries. To US almost no one, after or before Franco died, it doesn't matter, very few people migrated to the US in comparison. A LOT (and I mean a LOOOOOOOT, as to say) of people returned once Franco died and Juan Carlos II decided upon democracy. Besides that, what's your point? You will always have a small percentage of people do anything. Sell shit and some will buy it, just out of curiosity.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Frist of all, that has nothing to do with my post, which was only suggesting there's benn more and worse capitalist dictators than socialist dictators. Economics have nothing to do with what a dictator is and does.

Anyway:

1. Recognition, love from the people around you? Te simple congratulation of doing things well. Hell, I know we can't explain this to you, people like you. Money is not everything.

2. The simple fact you need to ask that, tells the sad story about your mentality. Money is not everything.

3. Yes. And were much better places than capitalist "beacons". Much more educated and kind people. Happier people. If only they were not exploited by capitalist "beacons" and were given the oportunity to grow...

4. People from poor countries always migrate to more advanced ones, no matter which economic model they follow. Franco left the country destroyed, people migrated much more often while he was in power, to many countries. To US almost no one, after or before Franco died, it doesn't matter, very few people migrated to the US in comparison. A LOT (and I mean a LOOOOOOOT, as to say) of people returned once Franco died and Juan Carlos II decided upon democracy. Besides that, what's your point? You will always have a small percentage of people do anything. Sell shit and some will buy it, just out of curiosity.

Ok Dark. I said I wasn't going to debate this anymore as the Mods have made it clear its off topic. With that being said you sound very young and or haven't had much exposure to the world. Do not think you know anything about me or my beliefs with statements like "Hell, I know we can't explain this to you, people like you". You don't know me period. If you continue with comments like that Ill be forced to retaliate and BELIVE me Ill verbally destroy you. SO lets just walk away.

 

[btarunr]

I agree that these political debates can get out of hand (why do they keep being created here, anyway?).

However, are you really sure of what you said?

Politics drives regulation. Regulations drives business. Business drives the economy.

Without regulation in business you eventually get feudalism. With too much regulation you have no business. It's one or the other.

I would definitely argue that the political climate present during a downturn in the economy definitely has a hand in things.

I agree, but bringing about a blame-game, and romanticizing hate on a political entity, or a set of principles, isn't going to solve anything and help this discussion move in the right direction.

Not all regulation is Socialism. Socialism doesn't hold the answers to how to regulate and bring capitalism back to shape. The equation doesn't work out in that way.

 

[TechnicalFreak]

I quit my job before they could even say a word. Have until fifth of mars. They will need a new mechanic.

Sad part is, that I quit because of illness. They will never find a new mechanic before I "leave" them. And if they do, will that person have *magic* fingers when it comes down to electronics...