Calling all Phenom II Overclocking Gurus!

[cadaveca]

1.42 is a far cry from 1.55v. Also link me to the white sheet that says before degradation. I've never read that. Also why do I need to do stepping research?

Not you...those looking for 720BE that will hit 4ghz.

First, here's 955 product page...max VID 1.5v. that's 1.5v max, stock. (there goes your idea)

http://products.amd.com/en-us/Deskt...2=&f3=&f4=&f5=&f6=&f7=&f8=&f9=&f10=&f11=&f12=




Do you know who Macci is? Sami From his mouth to my ears(1.55v is safe on high-end aircooling). You calling AMD officials liars?

Here's his twitter, ask him yourself.:

http://twitter.com/SamiMaekinen



Like I said, do your research, you can find the info if you look for it. The example above is enough to prove you wrong.

 

[TheMailMan78]

This is what I said and the link you provided proves me right.

I didn't say you can't run it. What I said is it will cause chip degradation. Which it will. 1.55 is max before you fry it under stock cooling. Never mind the degradation. It may last months. Hell it may last a year or so but not much past that.

 

[cadaveca]

This is what I said and the link you provided proves me right.

OK, tell ya what...you get me a stock ocoler for 955BE, and I'll run my chip @ 1.55v. We'll see if it fries...

AMD silicon is low-leakage, allowing much higher volts than you think. AMD had demos of 940BE running 1.6v, said under Coolit Elite, this was perfectly safe.

Everything you say would apply to Intel chips, which use a very different type of silicon, and as such are subject to degredation.

I know I'm right, I've given you a link that show your

Also anything above 1.44v on a 45nm CPU will cause chip degradation. This I wont debate.

as pure wrong. Maybe IN YOUR EXPERIENCE these things are true, but I get my info direct from AMD officials, or i would have STFU a long time ago.

I mean...my board alone shows your

Upping the FSB to much will fry your chip set. 7xx series boards from my experiance do not like anything above 15% OC.

as wrong...I'm doing double your 15%, under prime95 for the past two hours, so I could show a screenie here, showing this statement as just your experience, not nessecarily fact.

I tell you what, you contact AMD yourself, contact Sami, or Simon Solotko, and see what they say. I need to prove nothing...I've already shown you as wrong...you think AMD would sell chips with a VID that would kill them, in less than the warranty period? PLEASE.

I mean, really, read these threads/previews:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=81386


http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/articles/press/Phenom_II_Preview_1.html


http://www.amdzone.com/index.php/reviews/60/11033-amd-phenom-ii-x4-940-black-edition


It's very possible to buy a 940BE or 955BE, and get a chip with 1.5v stock.

Where does it say 1.55v will fry it? How come my chip isn't dead..I hit 1.55v under 720BE cooler...which is a tiny peice of alu with no heatpipe!! cpu still works...???


Heck, even send W1zz here a pm, and see what he says. He's probably the most impartial reviewer on the planet. I don't gotta prove nothing. But I am having fun!

 

[TheMailMan78]

OK, tell ya what...you get me a stock ocoler for 955BE, and I'll run my chip @ 1.55v. We'll see if it frys...

AMD silicon is low-leakage, allowign muhc higher volts than you think. AMD had demos of 955BE running 1.6v, said under Coolit Elite this was perfectly safe.

Everything you say would apply to Intel chips, which use a very different type of silicon, and as such are subject to degredation.

I know I'm right, I've given you a link that show your




as pure wrong. Maybe IN YOUR EXPERIENCE these things are ture, but I get my info direct form AMD officials.

I mean...my board alone shows your



as wrong...I'm doing double your 15%, under prime95 for the past two hours, so I could show a screenie here, as jsut your experience, not nessecarily fact.

I tell you what, you contact AMD yourself, contact Sami, or Simon Solotko, and see what they say. I need to prove nothing...I've already shown you as wrong...you think AMD would sell chips with a VID that would kill them, in less than the warranty period? PLEASE.

I mean, really, read these threads:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=81386


http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/articles/press/Phenom_II_Preview_1.html


http://www.amdzone.com/index.php/reviews/60/11033-amd-phenom-ii-x4-940-black-edition


It's very possible to buy a 940BE or 955BE, and get a chip with 1.5v stock.

Where does it say 1.55v will fry it? How come my chip isn't dead..I hit 1.55v under 720BE cooler...which is a tiny peice of alu with no heatpipe!! cpu still works...


Heck, even send W1zz here a pm, and see what he says. He's probably the most impartial reviewer on the planet. I don't gotta prove nothing. But I am having fun!

Ok man. Nothing you have posted proves me wrong. However in the link you provided you proved me right. You can name drop all you want. Like I said and AMD said 1.5v is max on stock cooling before degradation. This is why I say stick to 1.44, 1.45 for life span. But you keep running on 1.6. After all what does AMD know.

 

[cadaveca]

Ok man. Nothing you have posted proves me wrong. However in the link you provided you proved me right. You can name drop all you want. Like I said and AMD said 1.5v is max on stock cooling before degradation. This is why I say stick to 1.44, 1.45 for life span. But you keep running on 1.6. After all what does AMD know.

I dropped names so you could contact them, and ask them if they said this was fine or not. No other reason. I'm a house husband, father of 4, ex-con, sociopath, sitting in my basement, so I don't expect you to believe me. But contact those guys...and beleive them, as I do.


You prove nothing, other than your stubbornness.

Really, I don't mind being wrong...at least the proper info would be out in the open.

So you contact them, ask them if they ever said that, because obviously you are changing you story to suit the truth...

Also anything above 1.44v on a 45nm CPU will cause chip degradation. This I wont debate.

Did you forget posting that?:shadedshu

Like I said and AMD said 1.5v is max on stock cooling before degradation. This is why I say stick to 1.44, 1.45 for life span. But you keep running on 1.6. After all what does AMD know.

You just contradicted yourself.


So which is it now? You get your info from where? Your experience?


I got my info form the above people, who work for AMD. I'll listen to them before you.

After all what does AMD know.

Apparantly, not much, if we listen to you.

Since you didn't read the links, obviously:

Air: Cooler Master Hyper Z600 - Around 1.5-1.55V / 33C
Water/Tec: CoolIT Freezone Elite - Around 1.6V / 38C
Phase Change: VapoChill - 1.7V / Below 0C (software / MB wouldn't report negative numbers)
LN2: 1.75V (at least during the Crysis demo... *grin*)

 

[TheMailMan78]

Ok lets get down to facts.

I said

Also anything above 1.44v on a 45nm CPU will cause chip degradation. This I wont debate.

Why? Because AMD states that the maximum on their 45nm chips is 1.5v. Thats before SEVER DEGRADATION. Understand that the higher the voltage the more electron migration you have no matter how cool you keep the chip. So with that being said anything above the stock voltage decreases the life span.

As for the guys on twitter I could care less about. AMD officially says 1.5v as a maximum. Period. Again I'm telling you just because you can do something DOES NOT mean you should.

 

[exodusprime1337]

chip degradation can happen at different voltages depending on outside conditions such as core temp, cleanliness of the electricity(clear wave form, low amount of fluctuation), THE biggest factor on where a chip degrades is temperature. AMD has stated time and time again that the "max safe voltage" is 1.5 on stock cooling, and that additional cooling and volts is nessessary to achieve higher oc.

Chip degradation can happen at 1.4v if yo push the chip up in frequency just causing more heat, the same thing will happen.

On another note, even if chip degradation does occur, it takes years, much longer then the proccy will ever be used for. I personally have been pushing 1.56v through my phenom 2 940 at 4.0Ghz since jan 26, and it runs like a champ.

The defining factor on where you can push the phenom's to is the voltage. Amd states more importantly that killing the life of the processor that "electron migration" will begin or can begin to occur around and above 1.62~~ volts iirc. This general failure of ic's can happen to any ic that is currently in use, it's just the way it is, however electromigration is said to happen so far into the chips lifespan that even it is rarely a considered factor when determining how many volts to push through.

As far as amd chipsets not oc'ing... i'm not sure, i got my 790gx board at 275x14 right now to test the theory of not wanted to run a high fsb, and it's prime stable about 10 mins now, nb at 2800 or so and the htt link at about 2450...

 

[cadaveca]

Ok lets get down to facts.

I said Why? Because AMD states that the maximum on their 45nm chips is 1.5v. Thats before SEVER DEGRADATION. Understand that the higher the voltage the more electron migration you have no matter how cool you keep the chip. So with that being said anything above the stock voltage decreases the life span.

As for the guys on twitter I could care less about. AMD officially says 1.5v as a maximum. Period. Again I'm telling you just because you can do something DOES NOT mean you should.

But obviously you don't understand the basic principles of semiconductors.

OK, just a minute. Let me just say, I hope you don't take any of this too serious...I thoroughly enjoy discussions like this, so at this point I'll say thanks for continuing to dicuss this.

Now, both Sami Maekinen and Simon Solotko work @ AMD, and have for quite some time. These are the guys at preview events and press demos who show off what AMD cpus can do. Sami in particular...check out this vid:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Hf6d404QY&feature=channel

Dude who says "Ladies and gentlemen, we call this the abomination!".....Simon Solotko.


So when they tell me something is OK, i believe them.

So, as exodusprime says here:

chip degradation can happen at different voltages depending on outside conditions such as core temp, cleanliness of the electricity(clear wave form, low amount of fluctuation), THE biggest factor on where a chip degrades is temperature. AMD has stated time and time again that the "max safe voltage" is 1.5 on stock cooling, and that additional cooling and volts is nessessary to achieve higher oc.

Chip degradation can happen at 1.4v if yo push the chip up in frequency just causing more heat, the same thing will happen.

On another note, even if chip degradation does occur, it takes years, much longer then the proccy will ever be used for. I personally have been pushing 1.56v through my phenom 2 940 at 4.0Ghz since jan 26, and it runs like a champ.

The defining factor on where you can push the phenom's to is the voltage. Amd states more importantly that killing the life of the processor that "electron migration" will begin or can begin to occur around and above 1.62~~ volts iirc. This general failure of ic's can happen to any ic that is currently in use, it's just the way it is, however electromigration is said to happen so far into the chips lifespan that even it is rarely a considered factor when determining how many volts to push through.

As far as amd chipsets not oc'ing... i'm not sure, i got my 790gx board at 275x14 right now to test the theory of not wanted to run a high fsb, and it's prime stable about 10 mins now, nb at 2800 or so and the htt link at about 2450...

You'll find that just above 300, the chip will start to loose USB at stock volts, and will require a boost in voltage. As long as you keep temps in check, it's perfectly fine...

This is the nature of semi-conductors. The amount of current they can handle, and how much leakage there is(higher leakage chips are more prone EM) changes with temps.

High leakage chips scale the best...I pushed and pushed for them to relase a high-leakage chip....and we got TWKR.

Yes, I personally take credit for those TWKR chips...it was my idea, and I can show my posts about this long before they came out.


The main issue I have with your claims, Mailman, is you state votlages that are known safe, on stock cooling. Provide more cooling, and the chip can take more...as exodus prime says, this voltage is around 1.625-1.7v.

If you can keep temps lower than 63c, 1.5v is fine. Go to lower than 55c, and 1.55v is fine, and even up to 60c or so will have the chip last 4-5 years, if not longer.


Yes, running these voltages at the limit of temps might cause damage...but usually to the mobo...and specifically to the PWM. Because of this, there are protections built into the board to prevent damage, called OCP. The chipset cam be damaged as well, sure...if you do not set other voltages and offsets properly...like the OLD 939 AMD chips, that needed cpuvolts to be 1/2 of DRAM volts at the extreme...when we we running 2.8v-3.0v memory. Running 1.25v on the cpu back then...the chip would die.


I showed a screenie of me pushing 1.57...and that bounces up to 1.6v, as the current the chip uses fluctuates. Excess current is converted into voltage. This is my daily voltage for my cpu, and I never change it. My cooling can handle it, so I leave it there.


If this chip dies...you better beleive you'll be hearing about it...


All voltages must meet specific ratios. It's like memory timings...there is a specific formula that needs to be used. Is all this info out in the public domain?

Nope. Some of it is...

But over the past 8 years or so, Ive been trying to bring more and more out....before we were able to select TRFC and TRD settings in bios, I was asking for it. the more voices we have asking for more info, the more we will get. So if I anger you a bit here...good..maybe it will be enough that you'll call up AMD and find out the truth for yourself.

I don't know where you get your info from, but I certainly hope it's not forums. Go direct, man. You might be amazed at how open these guys are...and really..they want to help! Lots of good folks out there, willing to lend a hand, or provide info that can help!

 

[exodusprime1337]

here is some screens from the data sheets for the phenom2s

and here is the brief from amd's page about the phenom 2 955 chips, hopefully this settles the issue....

 

[cadaveca]

I love how that graph shows you can push 140w @ 64c. Guess what voltage that is? The info is there, mailman. Compare the two, and it shows that with better cooling, the chip can handle more....


I already posted the link to the 955 page, and he changed his tune to say 1.5v was fine.

 

[exodusprime1337]

hey cadaveca are you familiar with the asus m3n-ht boards and it's bios?? i'm trying to get this thing back to 3.8 in x64 before i ditch it and go back to 4.0Ghz in x86.... i'm curious on what i can push for voltages for teh mcp northbridge, htt link, and vddb voltage...

I've always pushed for auto or 2.72 on the vddb settings, higest is 2.87 in 4 increments
the nb(not cpu nb) i push about 1.42-1.45 through it in x64, in x86 i can leave it on auto which is leading me to believe the nb is directly Correlating with my lack of oc possibility in x64.. however 1.45 seems pushing it in my book


the htt link i push to 1.36 or lower, however i find i can run a 3k htt link at 1.20 so i'm sure i'm well above.

Either way hitting 3.8 in x64 is turning out to be a chore... i'm at 3.75 @ 1.49v right now and i've been fine get 4.0 at 1.575v...

btw if your curious about cooling i'm sitting idle at 28 and full load orthos at 43-46 under water, ambient of 20c.

 

[Corduroy_Jr]

all i ever had was Amd from 754/939 to am2/am3 and not once i blew any cpu, only killed 2 boards which i don't think was my fault, Abit an8 3rd eye got a corrupted bios, Asus an8-e went died after swapping video cards for some odd reason, all the amd cpu's i had i overclock them, cranked up vcore highest the board would let me, they ran fairly cool, with the new phenom II i never go above 1.55v, had my asus m4a79-deluxe since march its been rock solid

 

[cadaveca]

hey cadaveca are you familiar with the asus m3n-ht boards and it's bios?? i'm trying to get this thing back to 3.8 in x64 before i ditch it and go back to 4.0Ghz in x86.... i'm curious on what i can push for voltages for teh mcp northbridge, htt link, and vddb voltage...

I've always pushed for auto or 2.72 on the vddb settings, higest is 2.87 in 4 increments
the nb(not cpu nb) i push about 1.42-1.45 through it in x64, in x86 i can leave it on auto which is leading me to believe the nb is directly Correlating with my lack of oc possibility in x64.. however 1.45 seems pushing it in my book


the htt link i push to 1.36 or lower, however i find i can run a 3k htt link at 1.20 so i'm sure i'm well above.

Either way hitting 3.8 in x64 is turning out to be a chore... i'm at 3.75 @ 1.49v right now and i've been fine get 4.0 at 1.575v...

btw if your curious about cooling i'm sitting idle at 28 and full load orthos at 43-46 under water, ambient of 20c.

I don't do nV products, so I'm not sure.

64-bit problems generally relate to cpu, as the cpu is never actually in "full" use under 32-bit like it is in X64.

Ergo, I always test in X64...and overclock should be able to handle ANY apps, for me.

I don't change HTT voltages. All i ever adjust is cpu and NB volts.


In regards to what voltages may be OK, when it comes to chipsets, look at who makes the silicon, and hceck other products under the same process...nV chipsets are most likely TSMC fabbed, so...

 

[exodusprime1337]

i gotcha, thanx for the input, it's just that at times things will be working fine for hours and then it will cease to boot... it's an odd issue... tbh i'm really just considering going back to x86 windows, i notice little to no difference in either(nobody flame, this is a personal observation only), i do enjoy having the extra 725megs of ram available, however i don't think i ever come close, in wow i'm using roughly 48% of my 4 gigs and 54% of my 3275MB in x86... either way i'm no where close to needing to go up with the memory or tied to x64... i'm gonna play around a bit more with it though and see what i can get out of it.

 

[Wile E]

Not you...those looking for 720BE that will hit 4ghz.

First, here's 955 product page...max VID 1.5v. that's 1.5v max, stock. (there goes your idea)

http://products.amd.com/en-us/Deskt...2=&f3=&f4=&f5=&f6=&f7=&f8=&f9=&f10=&f11=&f12=




Do you know who Macci is? Sami From his mouth to my ears(1.55v is safe on high-end aircooling). You calling AMD officials liars?

Here's his twitter, ask him yourself.:

http://twitter.com/SamiMaekinen



Like I said, do your research, you can find the info if you look for it. The example above is enough to prove you wrong.

Yeah, I am calling them liars, as many have already reported degradation at over 1.5v, even on water. Whether or not that's the majority doesn't matter, the fact remains that degradation is a possibility above stove voltage on any silicon, regardless of manufacturer or process used.

 

[erocker]

I don't know why I'm in this thread, but you can run current AMD chips up to 1.55v on air cooling, straight from AMD's mouth. Anyways, your argument can stop here, let's get back to the original purpose of this thread and stop crapping all over it. If you want to continue your little back and forth, take it to PM's.

 

[Solaris17]

But obviously you don't understand the basic principles of semiconductors.

OK, just a minute. Let me just say, I hope you don't take any of this too serious...I thoroughly enjoy discussions like this, so at this point I'll say thanks for continuing to dicuss this.

Now, both Sami Maekinen and Simon Solotko work @ AMD, and have for quite some time. These are the guys at preview events and press demos who show off what AMD cpus can do. Sami in particular...check out this vid:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Hf6d404QY&feature=channel

Dude who says "Ladies and gentlemen, we call this the abomination!".....Simon Solotko.


So when they tell me something is OK, i believe them.

So, as exodusprime says here:



You'll find that just above 300, the chip will start to loose USB at stock volts, and will require a boost in voltage. As long as you keep temps in check, it's perfectly fine...

This is the nature of semi-conductors. The amount of current they can handle, and how much leakage there is(higher leakage chips are more prone EM) changes with temps.

High leakage chips scale the best...I pushed and pushed for them to relase a high-leakage chip....and we got TWKR.

Yes, I personally take credit for those TWKR chips...it was my idea, and I can show my posts about this long before they came out.


The main issue I have with your claims, Mailman, is you state votlages that are known safe, on stock cooling. Provide more cooling, and the chip can take more...as exodus prime says, this voltage is around 1.625-1.7v.

If you can keep temps lower than 63c, 1.5v is fine. Go to lower than 55c, and 1.55v is fine, and even up to 60c or so will have the chip last 4-5 years, if not longer.


Yes, running these voltages at the limit of temps might cause damage...but usually to the mobo...and specifically to the PWM. Because of this, there are protections built into the board to prevent damage, called OCP. The chipset cam be damaged as well, sure...if you do not set other voltages and offsets properly...like the OLD 939 AMD chips, that needed cpuvolts to be 1/2 of DRAM volts at the extreme...when we we running 2.8v-3.0v memory. Running 1.25v on the cpu back then...the chip would die.


I showed a screenie of me pushing 1.57...and that bounces up to 1.6v, as the current the chip uses fluctuates. Excess current is converted into voltage. This is my daily voltage for my cpu, and I never change it. My cooling can handle it, so I leave it there.


If this chip dies...you better beleive you'll be hearing about it...


All voltages must meet specific ratios. It's like memory timings...there is a specific formula that needs to be used. Is all this info out in the public domain?

Nope. Some of it is...

But over the past 8 years or so, Ive been trying to bring more and more out....before we were able to select TRFC and TRD settings in bios, I was asking for it. the more voices we have asking for more info, the more we will get. So if I anger you a bit here...good..maybe it will be enough that you'll call up AMD and find out the truth for yourself.

I don't know where you get your info from, but I certainly hope it's not forums. Go direct, man. You might be amazed at how open these guys are...and really..they want to help! Lots of good folks out there, willing to lend a hand, or provide info that can help!

LOL you seriously think like in all honesty that we would sincerely bealive that TWKR was your idea? like honestly? their is nothing in tweaker that is any diffirent from other processors in its series other than the fact that it was done on better silicone. Which along with the multi unlock is why they clock o so well. architecture wise they are the same. Not only that but their is not a single chance that a everyday person could say o hai can we have a high leak chip? and have it done. not even someone in AMD can do that. it is a team of people that must a gree on the direction they should bring their architecture and chips. So unless you can officialy prove you work for AMD can get all your architectual engineer buddies in here who can also prove they work for AMD. I totally call BS on this claim. Please before saying something like that try to give more stimulating info than the names of people you could get off of AMD's contact Us page or on a public twitter group. thanks

hi im Solaris17 and windows 7 was my idea

 

[erocker]

LOL you seriously think like in all honesty that we would sincerely bealive that TWKR was your idea? like honestly? their is nothing in tweaker that is any diffirent from other processors in its series other than the fact that it was done on better silicone. Which along with the multi unlock is why they clock o so well. architecture wise they are the same. Not only that but their is not a single chance that a everyday person could say o hai can we have a high leak chip? and have it done. not even someone in AMD can do that. it is a team of people that must a gree on the direction they should bring their architecture and chips. So unless you can officialy prove you work for AMD can get all your architectual engineer buddies in here who can also prove they work for AMD. I totally call BS on this claim. Please before saying something like that try to give more stimulating info than the names of people you could get off of AMD's contact Us page or on a public twitter group. thanks

hi im Solaris17 and windows 7 was my idea

Way to flamebait more, I mean what I said here:

I don't know why I'm in this thread, but you can run current AMD chips up to 1.55v on air cooling, straight from AMD's mouth. Anyways, your argument can stop here, let's get back to the original purpose of this thread and stop crapping all over it. If you want to continue your little back and forth, take it to PM's.

Now drop it.

 

[Solaris17]

Way to flamebait more, I mean what I said here:



Now drop it.

my apologies i was still typing when you posted that. time stamp.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Lets continue the conversation here. So we can all learn.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=109411

Maybe a nice mod could move some of the conversation there?

 

[erocker]

Lets continue the conversation here. So we can all learn.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=109411

Maybe a nice mod could move some of the conversation there?

No, I said PM's. I don't mod this section.. though I did technically. Now get out of this thread.

 

[BraveSoul]

what an abrupt end of a such informing argument ,, o well,, lets get on with it,,
got a question for u pros..
higher NorthBridge frequency ups cpu voltage requirement true?

 

[Enmity]

from what ive gathered, the nb at higher frequencies will cause more heat and thus might need a little more voltage on the NB itself to keep stable, I haven't experienced needing more vcore because of a higher nb though.

Im running 3.8Ghz with 1.504vcore with the NB at 2400Mhz. Ive left the nb voltage at stock which is proving to be really quite stable so far.

Im by no means a pro, im just showing what ive experienced with my 940
what voltages/settings do you run for your 3.8ghz oc?

 

[BraveSoul]

used 1.55volts for 3.8 just benched with it, now experimenting with 2.8 at 1.2volts