3D on 60Hz monitor

[IceCreamBarr]

I've been thinking: couldn't 3D be done on a 60Hz refresh television/monitor? If "older" HD was 1080p 24Hz and now the smexy HD is 1080p 30Hz, doesn't that mean our eyes are getting a maximum of 30 unique images per second? So if my tv is 480Hz, I see the same image 16 times before the new frame pops up. I would argue that Blue-ray on my 60Hz monitor looks similar enough to my 480Hz plasma; the difference is negligible and I've dropped to each frame being displayed twice.

The difficulty I foresee would be changing the refresh sync of active glasses from 120Hz to 60Hz but I have a theory. The 3D BR is 60Hz, so the shutter on the glasses is actually only 60Hz, it shifts after 2 frames on the TV have been displayed for one eye (can anyone corroborate this?). The glasses would have to be synchronized to change after every frame input (instead of every two), which would be their normal cadence, just the "beat" would be different.

I'm not arguing that 120Hz is of equal picture quality than that of 60Hz but wouldn't this be good enough for semi awesome, semi ghetto 3D?

Barr

 

[digibucc]

it would hurt your eyes, if you were even able to hack the drivers and make them work.

yes possible, extremely ghetto though. imo not even close to worth it.

but 480hz tv? i think you mean 480 px, as in vertical size. not refresh rate.
I have never heard of a 480hz anything in regards to displays.

 

[Red_Machine]

640x480 on a HD TV? Methinks it is indeed 480hz.

 

[n-ster]

Plasmas are often 480~600hz
There are alot of 120hz and even some 240hz LED LCD TVs also

 

[BumbleBee]

it may be possible... but you will vomit all over your significant other.

LCD televisions don't have a 480Hz refresh rate. LG has a LCD television with a 480Hz refresh rate but it's actually 240Hz with a backlight scanning technology.

 

[n-ster]

it may be possible... but you will vomit all over your significant other.

LCD televisions don't have a 480Hz refresh rate. LG has a LCD television with a 480Hz refresh rate but it's actually 240Hz with a backlight scanning technology.

I'm guessing something similar for the Vizio XVT3D554SV ?

oh and http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1483358

No, this is not at all like watching film at 24Hz or playing video games at 30Hz. With LCD shutter glasses operating at 60Hz, you are flashing bright lights alternately into each eye at 30Hz, and doing that in the 10Hz to 30Hz range causes nausea, giddiness and even seizures. It may be possible to do what you want, but the puking and migraines won't be worth it.

 

[BumbleBee]

I'm guessing something similar for the Vizio XVT3D554SV ?

oh and http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1483358

yes. the same technology LG uses. LCD can't even achieve 1080 lines of motion resolution without the help of motion interpolation technology.

Edit: good to know I have a kindred spirit over at Hard lol

 

[n-ster]

I'll say it again. The 24FPS you are seeing in the theatre is not the same as the 30FPS per eye you get from LCD shutter glasses. The theatre 24FPS is being received in both eyes at the same time - no problem. The LCD shutter glasses at 60FPS (30FPS per eye) is being received one frame in one eye, then one frame in the other eye - puke city. Altnernating frames per eye needs to happen at speeds higher than 50FPS per eye to prevent the negative effects.

Another nice way to say it

 

[BumbleBee]

aka induced projectile vomiting

 

[qubit]

As per n-ster's quote from evilsofa.

30Hz alternate to each eye is intolerable and will make you throw up within 10 seconds. And I know because I've tried it; I've got 3D Vision. Even 50Hz is bad. It's got to be 60Hz and above, or nothing.

 

[Benetanegia]

I'll say it again. The 24FPS you are seeing in the theatre is not the same as the 30FPS per eye you get from LCD shutter glasses. The theatre 24FPS is being received in both eyes at the same time - no problem. The LCD shutter glasses at 60FPS (30FPS per eye) is being received one frame in one eye, then one frame in the other eye - puke city. Altnernating frames per eye needs to happen at speeds higher than 50FPS per eye to prevent the negative effects.

The reason that 24 fps is compfortable on theatres is that every one of those frames are displayed 3 times: 24 fps == 72 Hz

The human eye can see fluid motion perfectly with only 24 fps*, but it's sensitive to flickering up to 100+ Hz, although 60-80 Hz is what the average can notice.

So at any rate you do need 50+ Hz on each eye for a good experience with 3D.

*24 (sometimes even 18) as long as we don't have to interact with it. So in games you want much more than that, on movies it's not necessary.

EDIT:In Europe it's typical for 50 Hz to be better than 60 Hz. It has to do the frequency at which each country (continent) gets its electricity, because it affects the frequency of the light sources and can create annoying interferences between light coming from lamps (50 Hz) and the monitor (60 Hz?). That's why TV broadcast is 60 Hz in North America and 50 Hz in Europe.

 

[IceCreamBarr]

My television is a 2 year old plasma that is 480Hz, pretty common actually, nothing fancy.

To revisit the idea: I can appreciate the nausea comments, probably true. Here is an alternate idea; flicker the glasses twice per eye (1/60 Hz on the television, 2/120 Hz per eye) before moving to the other eye. This would give my eyes the 120Hz needed to avoid nausea and would allow the television to stay at 60Hz.

the image chain would go like this:

1 frame Blue-ray, non 3D is "double pumped" to my television (30fps data source, 60Hz refresh).

1 frame Blue-ray, 3D is "single pumped" to my television (30fps per eye, 60fps, 60Hz refresh).

1 frame of "fake 3D @ 60Hz" is double pumped ON my 120Hz glasses.

 

[Mussels]

I've been thinking: couldn't 3D be done on a 60Hz refresh television/monitor? If "older" HD was 1080p 24Hz and now the smexy HD is 1080p 30Hz, doesn't that mean our eyes are getting a maximum of 30 unique images per second? So if my tv is 480Hz, I see the same image 16 times before the new frame pops up. I would argue that Blue-ray on my 60Hz monitor looks similar enough to my 480Hz plasma; the difference is negligible and I've dropped to each frame being displayed twice.

The difficulty I foresee would be changing the refresh sync of active glasses from 120Hz to 60Hz but I have a theory. The 3D BR is 60Hz, so the shutter on the glasses is actually only 60Hz, it shifts after 2 frames on the TV have been displayed for one eye (can anyone corroborate this?). The glasses would have to be synchronized to change after every frame input (instead of every two), which would be their normal cadence, just the "beat" would be different.

I'm not arguing that 120Hz is of equal picture quality than that of 60Hz but wouldn't this be good enough for semi awesome, semi ghetto 3D?

Barr

Actually, the 3D TV's still only give you 2x24FPS so its 24 per eye. i actually see flicker with the stupid thing.


PC 3D realised this long ago, and stuck with 100Hz as a flicker free requirement (120 with LCD, since its a nice double of the standard 60)


something people really need to understand is the difference between the 'advertised' bullshit refresh rate on their HDTV's (EG 480Hz) and the INPUT refresh rate.

Its like saying the TV is 1080p capable and then you find out its only resolution over HDMI is 1024x768... its almost false advertising.

(If anyone still doesnt get it: HDTV's only have 60Hz inputs thanks to HDMI. thats it. seriously. stop trusting the damn sticker on the TV or the box it came in, and research it.

 

[IceCreamBarr]

Actually, the 3D TV's still only give you 2x24FPS so its 24 per eye. i actually see flicker with the stupid thing.


PC 3D realised this long ago, and stuck with 100Hz as a flicker free requirement (120 with LCD, since its a nice double of the standard 60)


something people really need to understand is the difference between the 'advertised' bullshit refresh rate on their HDTV's (EG 480Hz) and the INPUT refresh rate.

Its like saying the TV is 1080p capable and then you find out its only resolution over HDMI is 1024x768... its almost false advertising.

(If anyone still doesnt get it: HDTV's only have 60Hz inputs thanks to HDMI. thats it. seriously. stop trusting the damn sticker on the TV or the box it came in, and research it.

My television IS 480Hz. It's refresh rate is 60Hz but it cycles the phosphors on and off 480 times per second while refreshing the frame buffer 60 times per second. I see 480 images per second, 60 unique images 8 times in a row.

 

[qubit]

My television IS 480Hz. It's refresh rate is 60Hz but it cycles the phosphors on and off 480 times per second while refreshing the frame buffer 60 times per second. I see 480 images per second, 60 unique images 8 times in a row.

That's just it, they're not properly "unique". All those inbetween frames are interpolated from the real frames either side. While it may smooth animation, it can and does lead to motion artifacts. Frankly, all the TV makers have to do is make sure that the interpolation gives you 50Hz ie 50 fields per second that the TV standard works at in the UK (60 US) to smooth out the animation and eliminate judder.

Just look at any video shot at 50Hz to see what how beautifully smooth it is. Unfortunately, most content, including the CGI animated TV logos are done at 25Hz for some stupid reason and judder terribly. There's no reason for doing it this way nowadays and hasn't been for the last 20 years at least.

My DVR can smoothly play back at double speed with no sound. All this 25Hz crap then looks wonderfully smooth, backing up my point.

 

[Mussels]

My television IS 480Hz. It's refresh rate is 60Hz but it cycles the phosphors on and off 480 times per second while refreshing the frame buffer 60 times per second. I see 480 images per second, 60 unique images 8 times in a row.

yes... but you can never get more than 60 unique images. for 3D, that means no more than 30Hz per eye (which is a flickery mess to many people)


You seem to understand the difference at least, most people dont.

 

[Kreij]

When you get to my age, about 12 Hz is good as you are sleeping half the time.

Anyway. 3D on 60 Hz? No. If you don't barf, you'll get headaches for sure.

 

[Mussels]

When you get to my age, about 12 Hz is good as you are sleeping half the time.

Anyway. 3D on 60 Hz? No. If you don't barf, you'll get headaches for sure.

when it comes to 3D bluray, thats all you get. people see "oooh a 240/480Hz LCD/plasma, that'll be GREAT for 3D!" but it still flickers like a bitch due to low FPS of source.

 

[BumbleBee]

current use of the technology hasn't impressed me and it's not like Schindler's List is ever going to be 3D.

yo dawg I heard you like 3D.. ugh nevermind

 

[Kreij]

In all honesty, the advances in 3D tech are impressive. It's just not ready for prime time yet.
I'm not sure if it ever will be with the current methods of creating it.
Next gen 3D wil be interesting, and we will all enjoy trashing discussing it here on TPU.

 

[BumbleBee]

companies are looking for products to sell you until the OLED revolution begins. the gaming industry revolves around the console market and they have enough problems with frame rate. the use of the technology has been unimpressive. I personally don't like Disney or Pixar films and 3D without glasses is only going to make the viewing angles on LCD televisions worse than they already are.

 

[qubit]

In all honesty, the advances in 3D tech are impressive. It's just not ready for prime time yet.
I'm not sure if it ever will be with the current methods of creating it.
Next gen 3D wil be interesting, and we will all enjoy discussing trashing it here on TPU.

+1... and fixed!

 

[TheLaughingMan]

3D on 60 Hz is not possible. At that refresh rate it would just be alternating frames of the image. The flashing it would create could possible induce an epileptic seizure and kill you at the worst.

As all 3D inputs will be looking for a 120Hz minimum, it would most likely just fail. Even if you hacked the drivers and forced it, the TV should just display "No Signal Input" in large white letters.

 

[Completely Bonkers]

3D 60Hz pr0n.

Can you imagine? Some kind of weird addictive torture? A pain/please punishment on your enemies?

 

[BumbleBee]

3D Porn. I didn't think of that. my opinion has changed lol