Lets talk PC Audio

[Mussels]

jack, use edit/multi quote instead of double posting. its neater. i'll merge that last double post for you.

edit: done, went on a merging spree in the thread. let me know if i merged posts i shouldnt have.

 

[Swamp Monster]

That article on 24bit is completely full of shit. First, it does not add noise at low volumes. Second, sure, not a lot will benefit from 24bit in today's loudness wars material, Most stuff is pushed to the walls, but you most certainly do hear a difference in properly mixed and mastered material if you have good enough equipment.

I do agree with the sentiment that it is useless for the average listener on normal equipment, with cookie cutter major label garbage. So while, not typically able to be taken advantage of, posting it as a fact is misleading.

+1
Mussels, please read text in your link again, actually they say that 24-bit has lower noise floor than 16-bit.

Well, it was a problem when first 24-bit ADC's sppeared, as I have heard(signal to noise ratio was bad), but it was long time ago and not true anymore.

 

[Mussels]

+1
Mussels, please read text in your link again, actually they say that 24-bit has lower noise floor than 16-bit.

Well, it was a problem when first 24-bit ADC's sppeared, as I have heard(signal to noise ratio was bad), but it was long time ago and not true anymore.

i linked to it because it was something i knew squat about.


i also wrote that post in all of 10 minutes, its a miracle i only cocked up the last part.


edit: utterly simplified the comment i made regarding that link.

 

[Jack Doph]

jack, use edit/multi quote instead of double posting. its neater. i'll merge that last double post for you.

edit: done, went on a merging spree in the thread. let me know if i merged posts i shouldnt have.

Thanks man.
I tried, but with this crap 3G internet.. it just wouldn't let me.
*mumblegrumblediscontent*

 

[Frederik S]

24-bit does not matter at all for playback purposes. 16/24-bit just defines the dynamic range, 16-bit allows for each sample to be between 0 dB and 96 dB. 24-bit has a dynamic range of 144 dB. Unlike the sample rate higher does not equal better here. Normal music has a dynamic range of around 1 dB (severely compressed popular music) to 15 dB (high quality recordings of orchestral pieces). So it is nowhere near the theoretical limits.

Sampling rate is however important since the more samples you have the closer you can get to the original waveform.

 

[Jack Doph]

24-bit does not matter at all for playback purposes. 16/24-bit just defines the dynamic range, 16-bit allows for each sample to be between 0 dB and 96 dB. 24-bit has a dynamic range of 144 dB. Unlike the sample rate higher does not equal better here. Normal music has a dynamic range of around 1 dB (severely compressed popular music) to 15 dB (high quality recordings of orchestral pieces). So it is nowhere near the theoretical limits.

Sampling rate is however important since the more samples you have the closer you can get to the original waveform.

There's a lot of truth in that statement, even if classical music still represents the widest dynamic range (at times of more than 100db) - engineers will use compression to limit this, just to satisfy the average listener so the sound can still be heard in a bad acoustic environment (eg. in a car etc.).

 

[twilyth]

There's a lot of truth in that statement, even if classical music still represents the widest dynamic range (at times of more than 100db) - engineers will use compression to limit this, just to satisfy the average listener so the sound can still be heard in a bad acoustic environment (eg. in a car etc.).

I think you need dynamic range compression for a lot music - especially classical. Otherwise, you can get blown out of your chair by some of the transitions.

 

[Jack Doph]

I think you need dynamic range compression for a lot music - especially classical. Otherwise, you can get blown out of your chair by some of the transitions.

And .. what's wrong with that?
XD
For example.. In Tchaikovsky's Symphony #6, some of the widest acoustic range ever is recorded (from PPPPPP to FFFFFF), because it *needs* to be like that.
When you listen to it in concert, you *do* get blown away by that sheer effect.
Why not enjoy as much of the real experience at home?

 

[Frederik S]

15 dB is a lot since the volume doubles with every 3 dB. So you will feel the intensity transitions in classical even if it is compressed somewhat. Plus from a mixing point of view you want to mimic the effects of the concert hall and thus level the volume of the different instruments to some degree.

 

[copenhagen69]

good writeup mussles!

 

[Ra97oR]

To check your musics dynamic range use: http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/es/es/download

Might surprise you how even some song when you think sound more dynamic have less range than a "less dynamic" song

 

[Praetorian]

Words are useless. Just download from the nets some 24bit/96Khz classical music, from Bethoven, Mozart, etc, and compare it with the original 16bit/44.1Khz.

Some samples here:
http://01688cb.netsolhost.com/samplerdownload/

 

[Robert-The-Rambler]

That little program is cool

To check your musics dynamic range use: http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/es/es/download

Might surprise you how even some song when you think sound more dynamic have less range than a "less dynamic" song

Pretty much confirmed my suspicions about what recordings are subject to peaks past clip which is evidence of an overzealous engineer. Sometimes I am not convinced that high dynamic range recordings are always going to sound good.

 

[entropy13]

Can you setup something with 4 speakers? I tried it before, I haven't tried it with my new system yet though. Even if I set it up in "Quadrophonic", the sound only goes out in the "primary" pair. The test sound in Windows itself works, but using the Realtek testing produces no output from the other two speakers. And of course any other program just makes it a 2.0 system.

Another thing, does the age of the two speakers have anything to do with this though? Those speakers (USB 1.1) were from a system that was brand new when Windows 98 was brand new too.

 

[slyfox2151]

Can you setup something with 4 speakers? I tried it before, I haven't tried it with my new system yet though. Even if I set it up in "Quadrophonic", the sound only goes out in the "primary" pair. The test sound in Windows itself works, but using the Realtek testing produces no output from the other two speakers. And of course any other program just makes it a 2.0 system.

Another thing, does the age of the two speakers have anything to do with this though? Those speakers (USB 1.1) were from a system that was brand new when Windows 98 was brand new too.

this is completely irrelevance to the thread.


easiest option is to use speaker fill in windows sound options under advanced, if you want/need more help i suggest you create a new thread,

 

[Mussels]

Can you setup something with 4 speakers? I tried it before, I haven't tried it with my new system yet though. Even if I set it up in "Quadrophonic", the sound only goes out in the "primary" pair. The test sound in Windows itself works, but using the Realtek testing produces no output from the other two speakers. And of course any other program just makes it a 2.0 system.

Another thing, does the age of the two speakers have anything to do with this though? Those speakers (USB 1.1) were from a system that was brand new when Windows 98 was brand new too.

a stereo audio source only puts out stereo audio. i covered that in the original post.

 

[m4gicfour]

a stereo audio source only puts out stereo audio. i covered that in the original post.

There are ways around this for certain specific programs with very advanced audio setup features, but for 99.5% of the time, having two seperate stereo audio devices makes stereo only.

Unless of course he was talking about those USB speakers that are analog and have a 3.5mm jack, only using the USB for power... then it would be considered a single audio device, with multiple channels. Then he may have a problem we could actually help with.

 

[entropy13]

Unless of course he was talking about those USB speakers that are analog and have a 3.5mm jack, only using the USB for power... then it would be considered a single audio device, with multiple channels. Then he may have a problem we could actually help with.

Yes, the USB is only used for power. The speakers have 3.5mm jacks

this is completely irrelevance to the thread.


easiest option is to use speaker fill in windows sound options under advanced, if you want/need more help i suggest you create a new thread,

How was my question irrelevant? It was still about PC audio, albeit more on the hardware side. Although the problem is more on the software side as anything I try in the Windows setup as well as in the Realtek menus change nothing.

Besides, I'm not really that fussed about it that I have to make a new thread. Look at this reply, and how long it took for me to do so.

 

[caleb]

There are ways around this for certain specific programs with very advanced audio setup features, but for 99.5% of the time, having two seperate stereo audio devices makes stereo only.

Stereo is stereo 100% of time.

 

[slyfox2151]

Yes, the USB is only used for power. The speakers have 3.5mm jacks



How was my question irrelevant? It was still about PC audio, albeit more on the hardware side. Although the problem is more on the software side as anything I try in the Windows setup as well as in the Realtek menus change nothing.

Besides, I'm not really that fussed about it that I have to make a new thread. Look at this reply, and how long it took for me to do so.

sorry i worded what i was going to say wrong

very tierd that night





my point is, Music is almost always encoded in 2.0. left and right channels only.

if you want sound to come out of more then 2 speakers then you need to "UPMIX" the sound. you can either play exacly the same audio out the front left speaker as the back left.... or your upmixing device may select what sounds it wants to play out the speaker.


technologies such as Dolby Pro Logic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic upmix 2.0/2.1/5.1/6.1 sounds to 5.1/6.1/7.1. for example on the Logitec Z-5500s control pod, you can use Pro Logic to upmix from 2.0 to 5.1 or you can output the same sound from the front speakers as the back, Stereo x2.

the easiest option is to plug the front and rear speakers into Front OUT on your motherboard/sound card. this will play the same sound from Left Front as Left Rear.



EDIT:
2.0 and 2.1 are effectivly the same thing, the difference here is low frequency sounds are passed to a subwoofer... or larger speaker to better handle the sound. your speakers should handle this automaticaly.

 

[entropy13]

sorry i worded what i was going to say wrong

very tierd that night





my point is, Music is almost always encoded in 2.0. left and right channels only.

if you want sound to come out of more then 2 speakers then you need to "UPMIX" the sound. you can either play exacly the same audio out the front left speaker as the back left.... or your upmixing device may select what sounds it wants to play out the speaker.


technologies such as Dolby Pro Logic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic upmix 2.0/2.1/5.1/6.1 sounds to 5.1/6.1/7.1. for example on the Logitec Z-5500s control pod, you can use Pro Logic to upmix from 2.0 to 5.1 or you can output the same sound from the front speakers as the back, Stereo x2.

the easiest option is to plug the front and rear speakers into Front OUT on your motherboard/sound card. this will play the same sound from Left Front as Left Rear.



EDIT:
2.0 and 2.1 are effectivly the same thing, the difference here is low frequency sounds are passed to a subwoofer... or larger speaker to better handle the sound. your speakers should handle this automaticaly.

Where did I say I was playing music? My LCD monitor is bigger than our TV, hence I'm looking at ways to use a spare pair of speakers while watching something.

Anyway, the board came with an installer for THX Tru Studio PRO, so I might as well try it out now. (edit: lol it's not doing anything much, I still need to use the Realtek one to setup something).

 

[slyfox2151]

Where did I say I was playing music? My LCD monitor is bigger than our TV, hence I'm looking at ways to use a spare pair of speakers while watching something.

Anyway, the board came with an installer for THX Tru Studio PRO, so I might as well try it out now. (edit: lol it's not doing anything much, I still need to use the Realtek one to setup something).

well you may not have said music specificaly... but it dosnt mater as it sounds like the audio your trying to play is encoded as 2.0. my advice still stands as it is.

as i said, if you are not looking for positinal audio then just use front out on the speakers, connect both the Front and Rear inputs to the front ouput on your sound card.

 

[entropy13]

Oh well, no problems encountered while setting it up. Just tested it with a couple of random DVDs. The only issue here is that the newer pair have built-in volume control on the speakers themselves (well one of the speakers anyway) while the older one doesn't.

 

[m4gicfour]

Stereo is stereo 100% of time.

That's what I get for the quick reply, and I dyslexified mussels's post from saying stereo source(like it says) to stereo output (like I read it).

I meant 2.0 output. Some programs can use two seperate 2.0 devices (that is, two seperate sound cards - like two sets of true USB speakers would appear to be) as a single 4.0 device (with 4 discrete channels). VirtualDJ comes to mind... It's not positional audio, but it can use quite a few different audio devices with different streams. There's nothing to stop i.e. Games from doing the same, and actually using positional audio, if someone were to code an API to do it. Of course there would be the issue of differing latency and such... My point is simply that it's possible, and programs DO exist which do this.

I wonder if Virtual Audio Cable is capable of making two 2.0 outputs appear as a single 4.0 device...

Not that this part is relevant to the discussion at hand

@entropy: set the volume knob so they're at the same level (and leave it there) as the speakers without, and control volume with the PC

 

[entropy13]

@entropy: set the volume knob so they're at the same level (and leave it there) as the speakers without, and control volume with the PC

The knob is already at max and the older speakers are still louder.

Good thing they're the "rear" speakers (the ones with the volume control I ticked as the "front speakers").

So there, volume control is here in the PC itself.