Are we Alone?

[Kreij]

The Higgs-Boson particle? Pffft.
I have a drawer full of them and all they do is whine about how they are not appreciated even thought they don't do anything but whine.

Again more media attention than results.

 

[streetfighter 2]

There have been rumours the the LHC has found the higgs particle, just need to publish the information.

CERN said if they did find it they wouldn't release the confirmation paper for around a year. This is most likely to avoid the embarrassment of a false positive. Nevertheless CERN doesn't have any sort of ultra confidentiality pact, so it's more than likely that the rumor mill will fill up a long time before a paper is released.

IIRC CERN also said that they'd be scanning the mass region of between 170GeV and 400GeV this year, which means that if the Higgs exists they're going to find it. I believe the current prediction is that the Higgs occupies the mass region around 160-190GeV.

I think what Mailman is trying to get across here is that the total sum of our scientific knowledge is inadequate to lay positive claim on any given theorem.
IMO, this is not necessarily the fault of the scientists, but of an over-zealous media to pump out over-blown stories of a potential scientific finding.

I can prove any number of theorems myself, so I guess you're using the non-mathematical definition of the word.

The media is really just Michio Kaku. I aint never heard shit like Michio says when I was in college.

Is beer the nectar of the Gods? Yes.

Really? I better get to researching it-- Yummm . . . Yeungling is good.

The Higgs-Boson particle? Pffft.
I have a drawer full of them and all they do is whine about how they are not appreciated even thought they don't do anything but whine.

So that's why you have enough spare coin to make contests on TPU? You're just using your Higgs particles to make matter then sell it on the black matter market.

Again more media attention than results.

It gets attention from the scientific media and nutjobs (like FOX). I aint seen that shit on BBC, Newshour, ABC, CBS, etc..

 

[TheMailMan78]

Probably not, but one could estimate it.

Relativity accounts for gravitational pulls in celestial observations. The phenomenon is known as gravitational lensing.

Great phrase; it's a good tag-line for the creationists. If you found a hole, fix it and get a prize. Every time we answer a question we end up with a million new unanswered questions, this is the nature of scientific discovery.

FYI, DARPA disagrees with Stephen Hawking's blackhole radiation. They released a 500+ page mathematical refutation, which asserted that his underlying assumptions were flawed. (I lost the source in one of my book repositories and I haven't been able to find it again. It's free if you can find it on the nets.)

I do not believe Einstein said anything to that effect, in fact the opposite is much truer.
God does not play dice -- Einstein
Einstein and Bohr were mortal enemies. He spent most of his later years trying to prove that the quantum universe was orderly, as opposed to the borderline insanity of the Copenhagen interpretation.

We're trying. I'm sorry science doesn't advance faster but the more outlandish our claims, the more outlandish the experiments to prove them.

Anything you can't test experimentally is not science, it's philosophy. Also can you "prove" to me that you exist? You're probably just a figment of my imagination.

No Einstein didn't say "Quantum physics is the new G-d." I did. My point was its the lastest flavor in scientific discovery and has yet to prove anything tangiable. Einstein called BS on it before I was born. I mean really the whole "cat in the box" theroy is stupid. And yeah I belive in G-d. But I also belive in divine creation. Meaning G-d is nature and how it evolves is his work. Take it how you want but I belive in scinece, evoloution and in G-d. Strange I know. I love new discoveries but today there seems to be more guessing going on then any real science. Thats kinda my point.

Now moving on, the gravational lens does not compensaite for mass or dark matter (Things that cannot be seen). So we have no REAL way of seeing how many times light bends before getting to our eyes. Its a guesstimate at best. I am not saying the brightest minds in the world are wrong. All I am saying is they are just guessing until we get out there with a ruler. Savvy?

I guess thats why I am in the Einstein "camp". Math FTW!

 

[streetfighter 2]

My point was its the lastest flavor in scientific discovery and has yet to prove anything tangiable.

Things in the quantum world are not all that tangible. Nevertheless I think the atomic bomb and the semiconductor industry would like a word with you.

I mean really the whole "cat in the box" theroy is stupid.

Schrodinger's cat? It's a thought experiment similar to the Ladder paradox which is often used with relativity. Schrodinger's cat is just a way of visualizing how the collapse of the wave function can effect the macroscopic world in relation to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Einstein was only calling BS because he believed strongly in a deterministic universe.

But I also belive in divine creation. Meaning G-d is nature and how it evolves is his work. Take it how you want but I belive in scinece, evoloution and in G-d. Strange I know.

Sounds perfectly reasonable and is well in tune with most of the people where I live. Florida is often considered a different country though isn't it?

Now moving on, the gravational lens does not compensaite for mass or dark matter (Things that cannot be seen). So we have no REAL way of seeing how many times light bends before getting to our eyes. Its a guesstimate at best. I am not saying the brightest minds in the world are wrong. All I am saying is they are just guessing until we get out there with a ruler. Savvy?

We've gone as far as to map the presence of dark matter in the universe. We are getting pretty good at figuring out what we're looking at. I disagree with the use of "guesstimate" unless you're definition of "guesstimate" involves thousands of hours on HPCs and work done by countless scientists.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6235751.stm
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/347483/files/

 

[TheMailMan78]

Things in the quantum world are not all that tangible. Nevertheless I think the atomic bomb and the semiconductor industry would like a word with you.

Schrodinger's cat? It's a thought experiment similar to the Ladder paradox which is often used with relativity. Schrodinger's cat is just a way of visualizing how the collapse of the wave function can effect the macroscopic world in relation to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Einstein was only calling BS because he believed strongly in a deterministic universe.

Sounds perfectly reasonable and is well in tune with most of the people where I live. Florida is often considered a different country though isn't it?

We've gone as far as to map the presence of dark matter in the universe. We are getting pretty good at figuring out what we're looking at. I disagree with the use of "guesstimate" unless you're definition of "guesstimate" involves thousands of hours on HPCs and work done by countless scientists.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6235751.stm
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/347483/files/

I'm sorry but to me things in the deterministic universe seem a lot more feasible. Sometimes it seems like Bohr was trolling on Einstein in his later years. Probably the only man alive that could.

We've gone as far as to map the presence of dark matter in the universe. We are getting pretty good at figuring out what we're looking at.

How do we know? We haven't been there yet Thats my point. This is one of the main reasons I am a huge supporter of NASA. WE NEED to get out there. If we sit here and tinker with theory the whole point of the science will be a mute point IMO.

I disagree with the use of "guesstimate" unless you're definition of "guesstimate" involves thousands of hours on HPCs and work done by countless scientists.

Countless scientist that have based their theory off of controlled experiments on the earths surface. HPC's running data based off of those theories. Like I said. They are guessing. Good ones. But guesses none the less.

Look at weather for example. Thats a simple one. We (mankind in some form) have lived with the Earths weather for 6.5 million years. Studied it for thousands and yet with the most advanced HPC's in the world and the brightest minds working them we still cannot tell where a storm is going to go. Thats on our very own planet. Yet people want you to believe they can calculate all the variables in the UNIVERSE and tell whats going on millions of light years away? Sorry but this is why I call BS on a lot of this. We couldn't even plant a robot on Mars without crashing the damn thing. Yet we know how old Alpha Centauri is? A little common sense goes a long way.

Things in the quantum world are not all that tangible.

Not tangible in a physical form. But provable. Everything from photosynthesis to ghosts are now chalked up to quantum physics. Even the people who study it just look at something unexplainable and say "Yup, that's quantum physics at work". Instead of saying "I have no fucking clue but I'm going to study it". A lot of scientists IMO are relying on old theory and not thinking outside of the box today. Something Einstein and Bohr were famous for. Instead we have Hawking and his ego.

 

[streetfighter 2]

I'm sorry but to me things in the deterministic universe seem a lot more feasible.

No need to apologize. I am completely undecided on the issue. The Copenhagen interpretation is inconvenient to say the least.

My brother and I have been arguing about determinism, without taking sides, for at least 10 years.

Sometimes it seems like Bohr was trolling on Einstein in his later years. Probably the only man alive that could.

Bohr was definitely trolling Einstein; but at the time Bohr was standing [almost] alone against the scientific equivalent of the pope: Einstein. This is a pretty good show about the history of those discoveries:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5003968210604570515&hl=en&emb=1#docid=-4974977412862654856

How do we know? We haven't been there yet Thats my point. This is one of the main reasons I am a huge supporter of NASA. WE NEED to get out there. If we sit here and tinker with theory the whole point of the science will be a mute point IMO.

I think you'll find that most scientists agree. The path to discovery can be multifaceted, involving both physical and theoretical exploration.

They are guessing. Good ones. But guesses none the less.

Damn good guesses if you ask me!

Look at weather for example. Thats a simple one. We (mankind in some form) have lived with the Earths weather for 6.5 million years. Studied it for thousands and yet with the most advanced HPC's in the world and the brightest minds working them we still cannot tell where a storm is going to go. Thats on our very own planet. Yet people want you to believe they can calculate all the variables in the UNIVERSE and tell whats going on millions of light years away? Sorry but this is why I call BS on a lot of this. We couldn't even plant a robot on Mars without crashing the damn thing. Yet we know how old Alpha Centauri is? A little common sense goes a long way.

You're absolutely right that climate science is very immature (despite it's age), but it's a vastly different field from astrophysics and quantum mechanics.

If you examine the process scientists use to draw their conclusions you can decide whether you agree or disagree with their reasoning. Unfortunately there isn't any easy way to do this and it is necessary for logical affirmation. Simply comparing dissimilar fields is not satisfactory.

A lot of scientists IMO are relying on theory and not thinking outside of the box today. Something Einstein and Bohr were famous for. Instead we have Hawking and his ego.

I dunno how much you follow contemporary physicists but Edward Witten is amongst the greatest. Leonard Susskind is Bohr to Hawking's Einstein

Also, if you ask me Maxwell is the best scientist who ever lived.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Oh my god (I realize the irony).

To add a light hearted side back to this technology forum I will brook the fact that we are definitely not alone. The fact that this forum exists proves there are people elsewhere on the Earth, or at least a sufficiently capable computer....


Please, can we close out the existential debate. This topic is basically crack for trolls, and has about as many definitive answers as the question of the existence of dark matter. Everyone can find facts to support their opinions, and everyone has facts that negate the oppositions arguments. Sigh....

Please, may the higher power (a.k.a. the moderators) please end this? Please?

 

[Robert-The-Rambler]

We are not alone

My name is Darth Vader. I am an Extra Terrestrial from the planet Vulcan......

Seriously this is some wild thread.

Hearing evokes emotion.

Seeing is starting to wonder.

Feeling is starting to believe.

Thinking leads to question.

Touching removes all doubt.

 

[mastrdrver]

I know I'm careening off course but I just want to interject one thing.....

..............I do know for fact that both UFO's (as in either a way classified top secret aircraft made by man or something made from another life form).........

There is an interesting fact about UFO "encounters". Outside of being some classified military thing, when asked the question "where are you from" the answers have changed throughout history at the same pace of the society accepted norm. In other words, when the publicly accepted thought was that the moon was like earth, the "aliens" said that is where they lived. Then we found out that it wasn't possible to live on the moon and it was not like Earth. Next we thought that maybe Mars had life and then so did the UFOs. Now today it is Alpha Centauri (I think, either closest star or galaxy).

Of course there are probably some "encounters" that don't hold to this, but like in court, the truth lies in consistency of the stories (especially the details), not in the exceptions. Or if there is any truth to all the "encounters" then there should be consistency between stories. Even people separated by locations and time.

The question I have is why the deception? If the government, then makes sense. If not, what do "UFOs" have to gain in this deception if they really do live many light years away?

Fwiw NdMk, ghosts work on a similar "deception" platform.

 

[Velvet Wafer]

I know I'm careening off course but I just want to interject one thing.....



There is an interesting fact about UFO "encounters". Outside of being some classified military thing, when asked the question "where are you from" the answers have changed throughout history at the same pace of the society accepted norm. In other words, when the publicly accepted thought was that the moon was like earth, the "aliens" said that is where they lived. Then we found out that it wasn't possible to live on the moon and it was not like Earth. Next we thought that maybe Mars had life and then so did the UFOs. Now today it is Alpha Centauri (I think, either closest star or galaxy).

Of course there are probably some "encounters" that don't hold to this, but like in court, the truth lies in consistency of the stories (especially the details), not in the exceptions. Or if there is any truth to all the "encounters" then there should be consistency between stories. Even people separated by locations and time.

The question I have is why the deception? If the government, then makes sense. If not, what do "UFOs" have to gain in this deception if they really do live many light years away?

Fwiw NdMk, ghosts work on a similar "deception" platform.

I actually watched an UFO dogfight, of about 10 Objects all in all, for about 10-15 minutes, together with my Mother and 4 Friends of us, with a pair of Binoculars and without them... it were 5 Yellow and 5 Red lights from afar, that seemed to chase each other at an incredible Speed,and with Moves, that would have killed every Human pilot,and ripped everything we can build, simply apart.... except the crafts had a kind of superfuturistic suspension technology, that kept the Crew unharmed.
And with Binoculars, i was even able to see, that the red lights, were in facts crafts, and that they had three afterburner like openings to the back... the yellow lights had only two, even tho the shape was roughly similar at that Distance.
(maybe 15-20 kilometres away, and at one to two kilometres height... in fact we were able to watch that event from our homes balcony...had a pretty good sight, and the night was absolutely clear, as i live on the countryside of Germany)
Over the course of said 10-15 minutes, the crafts chased each other, and one by one, of both Sides,made each other disappear in bright flashes, followed by something what looked exactly like that (the Columbia Accident), for a brink of a second:

In the End,only 2 were left,one red, and one yellow, and stopped the fighting, like they were receiving orders/taxing each other... then, suddenly, one started to rise upwards in an elevator style, really, like a VTOL that can fly a few thousand KMH upwards, in a straight line.... and it was gone in about 10 seconds,looked like a Star,that grew smaller and smaller, till it it vanished in the darkness of space, totally invisible to be seen with my binoculars, my eyes, or anything. It was... gone.
The other one then started, to realtively slowly fly towards the South, of Germany, as if it were continuing its patrol...what ever it was guarding.

True Story, with more than enough reliable witnesses...
(2 Women of 40+, and 2 Boys and 1 Girl of 18+)
Believe it or not

 

[W1zzard]

slowly fly towards the South, of Germany

i had some guests over at my house

 

[douglatins]

I don't think so, but until someone can prove we can travel faster than the speed of light i doubt we would ever see another equally intelligent race

 

[mastrdrver]

I actually watched an UFO dogfight, of about 10 Objects all in all, for about 10-15 minutes, together with my Mother and 4 Friends of us, with a pair of Binoculars and without them... it were 5 Yellow and 5 Red lights from afar, that seemed to chase each other at an incredible Speed,and with Moves, that would have killed every Human pilot,and ripped everything we can build, simply apart.... except the crafts had a kind of superfuturistic suspension technology, that kept the Crew unharmed.
And with Binoculars, i was even able to see, that the red lights, were in facts crafts, and that they had three afterburner like openings to the back... the yellow lights had only two, even tho the shape was roughly similar at that Distance.
(maybe 15-20 kilometres away, and at one to two kilometres height... in fact we were able to watch that event from our homes balcony...had a pretty good sight, and the night was absolutely clear, as i live on the countryside of Germany)
Over the course of said 10-15 minutes, the crafts chased each other, and one by one, of both Sides,made each other disappear in bright flashes, followed by something what looked exactly like that (the Columbia Accident), for a brink of a second:
http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/55/74855-004-A45A2C8F.jpg
In the End,only 2 were left,one red, and one yellow, and stopped the fighting, like they were receiving orders/taxing each other... then, suddenly, one started to rise upwards in an elevator style, really, like a VTOL that can fly a few thousand KMH upwards, in a straight line.... and it was gone in about 10 seconds,looked like a Star,that grew smaller and smaller, till it it vanished in the darkness of space, totally invisible to be seen with my binoculars, my eyes, or anything. It was... gone.
The other one then started, to realtively slowly fly towards the South, of Germany, as if it were continuing its patrol...what ever it was guarding.

True Story, with more than enough reliable witnesses...
(2 Women of 40+, and 2 Boys and 1 Girl of 18+)
Believe it or not

One thing to think about with UFOs is that they seem to be able to do maneuvers and speeds that would break the laws of physics that we know. Such as going faster then the speed of sound without making any sound even though they broke the sound barrier.

While such things are not possible in the 3 or 4 dimensions we live in, if UFOs are from another dimension, then it could explain such odd phenomenons.

 

[Velvet Wafer]

One thing to think about with UFOs is that they seem to be able to do maneuvers and speeds that would break the laws of physics that we know. Such as going faster then the speed of sound without making any sound even though they broke the sound barrier.

While such things are not possible in the 3 or 4 dimensions we live in, if UFOs are from another dimension, then it could explain such odd phenomenons.

its due to the design of their engines... they create a field of gravitational energy around the craft, so it is effectively not moving, but rather the "bubble" it flies within... makes i possible to ignore any kind of force that cant penetrate the bubble, effectively making it able to withstand physical forces, that would break each material that can be made... and these things can be controlled by humans too

 

[W1zzard]

its due to the design of their engines... they create a field of gravitational energy around the craft, so it is effectively not moving, but rather the "bubble" it flies within... makes i possible to ignore any kind of force that cant penetrate the bubble, effectively making it able to withstand physical forces, that would break each material that can be made... and these things can be controlled by humans too

according to all the physics that we know and that are not contradicted by any experiments known to man you need more energy than is available in the universe to build a warp drive, and also negative energy which doesnt exist.

 

[1nf3rn0x]

Does anyone believe in 2012? :S

 

[AphexDreamer]

Does anyone believe in 2012? :S

The sun might get mad, knock a few satellites out.

Worst case scenario (still not saying it will happen).

Our Poles decide to shift and they shift in such a manner where the Earth loses its Magnetic field and then the sun goes rampaging and without the Earths protective magnetic field we feel the wrath of the sun's radiation (Gamma rays, etc..)

Thats from a scientific point of few. You can throw Aliens invade Earth in there too.

Perhaps politically speaking the world will endure other terrors.

I'm sure it will pass with nothing special to note. Its not far away now, so meh...

Of course just IMO.

 

[Zyon]

Can't wait to show off my shiny new signature in 2012 that has the tag "I survived 2012 apocalypse!", hopefully the internet doesn't get taken down if it does take place...

Everyone start digging shelter in your backyard!

 

[digibucc]

Please, may the higher power (a.k.a. the moderators) please end this? Please?

everyone is being civil and enjoying a conversation. even wizz has jumped in. what is
it in your almighty power and reasoning that makes you feel you need to stop everyone?
it's a forum, people are talking.... that's kinda the point.

 

[douglatins]

everyone is being civil and enjoying a conversation. even wizz has jumped in. what is
it in your almighty power and reasoning that makes you feel you need to stop everyone?
it's a forum, people are talking.... that's kinda the point.

I agree with digi, this is on the right section, it's a civilized discussion of opinions, maybe you think your own truth is the only one? Do you also believe that we were created a few thousands of years ago by an inces.. ehrm, the same couple?

 

[Deleted member 3]

Please, may the higher power (a.k.a. the moderators) please end this? Please?

No.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Rather than explain myself, I would like to offer you this situation.

A man walks into a church, sits down, and remains quietly seated in line for the confessionals. When the people in front of him are done, he takes his turn and enters the booth.

Upon entry the priest asks what sins the man would like to confess. He replies with the following; "I have this issue with my wi-fi. It goes out every ten minutes regularly, but comes back on after 30 seconds. Do I need to get a new router?"

To which the priest responds "How long do you have the addresses on the router set to lease for?" And so on.


This was the story of a civil discussion, with very real results. The incongruity comes in the fact that you are discussing technology in a place where it is not generally acknowledged. Having read through some of these responses citing pseudo science and generally less understood mechanics of the universe, I view this as something better left to personal belief than something which a forum can definitively answer.

I have no qualms with level headed discussion. While the answers that people give are interesting, they are often based on mysticism and hope. Whether you believe in Jesus, Mohammed, a spaghetti monster, or nothing at all these are spiritual self truths that generally are as concrete as jello.

What I propose instead is something like "If aliens came tomorrow what technology would you like them to share with us and why." This both sates the desire for not being alone in this universe, and comes at it from a technological angle.

Apparently my opinion is in the minority, so it will likely be disregarded. I may be disappointed in this, but it is not unforseen. To those who dismiss my conclusion I offer only the criticism that, for those proclaiming to be open minded, you have a narrow interpretation of what is possible.



Edit: As a response to those who imply that I believe in god creating everything x000 years ago (fill in the x with any number between 1 and 9), you are putting stupid words in my mouth. I never implied this, and I take offense to you assuming it because I have a different opinion. You are far more narrow minded than you espouse. A difference of opinion drives development forward.

Those who cannot see the value of a belief in god, or a belief in science, are those blinded to the possibilities both have to offer.

 

[assaulter_99]

Can't wait to show off my shiny new signature in 2012 that has the tag "I survived 2012 apocalypse!", hopefully the internet doesn't get taken down if it does take place...

Everyone start digging shelter in your backyard!

Well If I ain't mistaken, I read somewhere that the 2012 crap was just a mistake, that it will be much later, in 2100 (stuff like that). Can't seem to find it but it was in a famous journo, so not BS.

 

[Deleted member 3]

What I propose instead is something like "If aliens came tomorrow what technology would you like them to share with us and why." This both sates the desire for not being alone in this universe, and comes at it from a technological angle.

Feel free to start that thread yourself. But don't try to limit other people in the conversations they want to have. If you don't like the thread/views/pseudo science, skip it. Nobody is forcing you to read through it.

 

[digibucc]

Those who cannot see the value of a belief in god, or a belief in science, are those blinded to the possibilities both have to offer.

no one i think is debating the value of science. and we are not touching the boogieman under the bed for now.

you just talk way too much without ever saying anything substantial. your posts are
huge and you just come across as having had no point in typing them. this is not to
offend, but rather to explain why most people are paying you little attention.