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Why BD failed? AMD Ex-Employee speaks out!

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TheMailMan78

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This is what I mean. Ok, no more off topic - PMs or GN please.

Jeez can't even complement a guy. How you quote other forums is like apple pie to my eyes!
 
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lol does anyone remember "real men use real cores"? :nutkick:

anyhow, i think bulldozer will deliver in a couple of years but amd missed the target with it for now (unless they were aiming at the server market as their primary goal)
 

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lol does anyone remember "real men use real cores"? :nutkick:

Yes, I do. That's marketing for you, lol. How times change.
 
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How 'bout "Real men own fabs"?
 
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Just when I was starting to let AMD/ATI into my home.. ; ;
 
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FX 8150 does quite well against the i7 2600k with 3 x HD 6000 series graphics cards. The key here is the i7 was 430MHz faster. The 8150 did underperform in a few games but most of the games it stood it's ground. Interesting indead....

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/4353/amd_fx_8150_vs_intel_i7_2600k_crossfirex_hd_6970_x3_head_to_head/index1.html

Yeah but that introduces too many variables and limiting factors. I think in this case the memory bandwidth or PCI-E bandwidth becomes much more a limiting factor than the CPU.
 
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Yeah but that introduces too many variables and limiting factors. I think in this case the memory bandwidth or PCI-E bandwidth becomes much more a limiting factor than the CPU.
Good point, never thought about that. Though it still gives you some sort of impression on performance and how it may perform for your gaming needs.
 

Frick

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People do not ignore that, but they do not ignore that this is a 2 billion transistor and 315 mm^2 chip. Such a behemoth can only match or sometimes slightly exceed a chip that is half the size, half the power consumption and has an integrated GPU. Without the GPU SB 4C would be a 750 million transistor and 180 mm^2 chip. You just cannot ignore that. How many real cores with HT could Intel put into a 2 billion transistor and 315mm^2 behemoth? While simple math cannot give an accurate answer to that, more or less: 2000/750 = 2.66 (times SB) -->> 4 cores * 2.66 ~= 10 Sandy Bridge cores. About the same amount of Thuban cores would fit too. Now tell me that BD architecture has any credit. Tell me that their multithreading method is more efficient than Hyperthreading, and where because I just simply fail to see how and where that happens.

You are entirely correct.

BTW at that teaktown thingy:



Interesting, seeing how everyone is bashing DB for power consumption.
 
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You are entirely correct.

BTW at that teaktown thingy:

http://cdn5.tweaktown.com/content/4..._head_to_head.png.pagespeed.ic.eMu-aZewYB.png

Interesting, seeing how everyone is bashing DB for power consumption.
AMD took a design chance with Bulldozer, you need balls of iron to do what AMD did, to completely build something from the ground up, have your computers telling you it will perform and all of a sudden its not what was originally written on paper.

Bulldozer may very well be something of the future per say. Hopefully with enough Windows tweaks along with a few others will help boost its performance.

Though I do blame AMD for not sharing ths design with software developers years before. But then again, maybe AMD did this already, and the software developers said the hell with it. Who really knows... :confused: :D
 
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“Please explain why having two separate integer cores is better than one fat one. For example, if each core has two ALUs and two AGUs and 16 KB of L1 cache, what if it was one integer core with 4 ALUs and 4 AGUs and 32KB cache? Theoretically, you’d get about the same performance for multi-threaded programs and better single threaded performance.” – Ryan

We get asked that a lot. The key is that a single core that would be able to compete with the throughput of two smaller cores would consume a disproportionate amount of die space and consume more power. Taking Bulldozer and turning each module into one “big core” instead of two cores with some shared resources would net you a disproportionately higher price and disproportionately higher power consumption.

In reality what we are doing is driving efficiency. And don’t worry about the single threaded performance –we have already stated publicly that Bulldozer single threaded performance is expected to be higher than our current core architectures.

What you have to keep in mind is that we are bringing innovation and driving towards the future. Back in 2005 when we did the first x86 dual core processors, there were some that argued that single core processors were better because a.) they had higher clock speed and b.) no applications really take advantage of multiple cores. Where are those people today?

When we innovated with bringing x86-64 to the market there were those that said 32-bit applications were better because they were faster and nobody really needs to access more than 2GB in most cases anyway. Where are those people today?

In this business you can either look out the windshield and focus on the road ahead and the technology that is coming up in the future or look in the rear view mirror and constantly obsess about how things were in the past.

The rules are changing now, just as they did in the past. AMD will continue to innovate.

Taken from here. They sure did a dandy job there! Well ok they were talking about the server chips, but still...


btw TPU needs a facepalm smiley
And those 3x CFx tests look pathetic.

“How much extra performance will we see when running two-threaded applications on one Bulldozer Module compared to two cores in different modules?” – Simon

Without getting too specific around actual scaling across cores on the processor, let me share with you what was in the Hot Chips presentation. Compared to CMP (chip multiprocessing – which is, in simplistic terms building a multicore chip with each core having its own dedicated resources) two integer cores in a Bulldozer module would deliver roughly 80% of the throughput. But, because they have shared resources, they deliver that throughput at low power and low cost. Using CMP has some drawbacks, including more heat and more die space. The heat can limit performance in addition to consuming more power. Ask yourself, would you rather have a 4-cylinder engine that delivered 300HP or a 6-cylinder engine that delivered 360HP and consumed less gas? The cylinder to horsepower ratio for 4-cylinder is obviously higher (75HP/cylinder vs. the V6’s 60HP/cylinder), meaning that each cylinder can give you more performance. However, looking at the overall enginge, you are getting less total output; and you are getting that lower output at a higher cost (higher gas consumption).

Ok we get it. So you promise stronger single-threaded performance when only one core of the module is loaded compared to a Thuban core and a 20% perf drop when both cores of a module are loaded. Ok that means that if an 8 core BD was made on 45nm, it would deliver more performance than a 6 core Thuban at less heat and power - yey! So we were supposed to get better performance in both instances. Yet neither of those are the case because BD is a 32nm chip, not a 45nm one! So you failed thrice! Your single threaded performance is poo, your multi-threaded performance fails to deliver and on top of that you're using what is suppposed to be a more advanced manufacturing process meaning even greater performance/power saving...Triple fail AMD!!!


Why did you release your product when you could clearly see it wasn't covering any of your promises - the ones you gave in public!

/trolling
 
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Real men don't say things with real men in them

lol does anyone remember "real men use real cores"? :nutkick:

anyhow, i think bulldozer will deliver in a couple of years but amd missed the target with it for now (unless they were aiming at the server market as their primary goal)

You only sound like an ass and that is what AMD looks like now. I've been such a supporter of AMD for years but the Bulldozer fiasco is like having a sledgehammer and trying to break down the Great Wall of China. I have motherboards that can easily be upgraded to 6 core Phenom IIs and it seems like that is a much better idea than switching to a new platform. I have I7s so I won't need that anyway but it clearly seems a really bad idea to go Bulldozer now. AMD has really been in a strange place lately. They release video cards that are basically the same as the generation before in 5850, 6850 for example and they also release CPUs that are having trouble keeping up with the last generation chip. What the hell is the policy over there? Lets sacrifice today for a possible tommorrow? Good luck with that one. :banghead:
 

Frick

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Guys, guys i got it! I was so wrong! See all along I've been trying to stack BD with Thuban, but instead we should have compared it to the original Phenom! :eek:
It's coz work on BD started in 2007 and it was intended to be Phenom's replacement and and and it totally rocks compared to Phenom! See all those articles above were talking about K10 and not k10,5! And we should all stfu and instead be amazed and blown away by AMD's progress! :) :toast:



Well, gee I don't know...maybe because half the time BD fails to even come close to SB's performance. And please do bear in mind that AMD's mobo is supposed to deliver more PCI-E lanes and what not...And that would be ok if $ntel's solution was a 1000$ extreme edition CPU, but it's not :/
 
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:)sounding like an intel fanboy thread this, bulldozer certainly isnt win at the min but its not as bad in its price point as some are making out imho, sure no ones going to be swapping from intel sandys for it but if your on a core 2 with ddr2 it dosnt look to bad if you drag mobo costs into the fray and for me at least with AMD you will have an upgrade path with intel it will be new socket time everytime apparently.:D just an opinion
 

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You are entirely correct.

BTW at that teaktown thingy:

http://cdn5.tweaktown.com/content/4..._head_to_head.png.pagespeed.ic.eMu-aZewYB.png

Interesting, seeing how everyone is bashing DB for power consumption.

It is interesting indeed, but of very little consequence really. Keep in mind:

- 2600k is running 500 Mhz higher while its stock clock is 200 Mhz lower. 700 Mhz more clock from stock to max OC is A LOT and surely puts the SB chip farther along the power curve, where diminishing returns kick off badly.

- Load consumption which is what most people are complaining about IS 20w higher in the BD setup.

- We would need to know exactly what both setups were doing at the time that power consumption was measured:



As stated in the power consumption pic they were benching 3dMark11, but the performance preset or the extreme one? Either way the Intel setup is producing more frames, which means higher GPU load. In the case they used the performance preset... well it would look really bad for BD. If the CPU was holding back the 3 cards like that, it was holding them back indeed, so their power consumption must of been way lower. This is why it's of critical importance the way power is measured here in TPU, not from the wall.
 
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Guys, guys i got it! I was so wrong! See all along I've been trying to stack BD with Thuban, but instead we should have compared it to the original Phenom! :eek:
It's coz work on BD started in 2007 and it was intended to be Phenom's replacement and and and it totally rocks compared to Phenom! See all those articles above were talking about K10 and not k10,5! And we should all stfu and instead be amazed and blown away by AMD's progress! :) :toast:

Well, gee I don't know...maybe because half the time BD fails to even come close to SB's performance. And please do bear in mind that AMD's mobo is supposed to deliver more PCI-E lanes and what not...And that would be ok if $ntel's solution was a 1000$ extreme edition CPU, but it's not :/
If this is how you feel about the test then the SB also sucks balls. Think about it, Bulldozer needs to get tweaked. Hell I am glad the thing works first of all. It was in the design face for more than 4 years. Give AMD some slack ;) They tried something very different with Bulldozer. Intel can afford to have multiple projects running at the same time due to the massive R&D funds they have, AMD only has enough for 2 MAX.
 
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Good point, never thought about that. Though it still gives you some sort of impression on performance and how it may perform for your gaming needs.

Yes, that's true as well, if you game with multiple graphics cards, that shows you it performs competitively. :)
 
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Time for a reality check, because this is obviously devolving into hate from both sides.

The thread is entitled "Why BD failed? AMD Ex-Employee speaks out!" Said title implies that the originator has a definite opinion, and thus sets the tone for the rest of the thread.

Those who love AMD, no matter what they put out, need not apply here. Poking at rabid fanboys from the other side, and then expecting anyone to listen to even reasonable statements, is like eating fast food at the zoo. It's acceptable from behind the glass, but you know that what you're doing is going to get you killed if that 800 pound gorilla decides to break the glass and steal your lunch.


Insane metaphor aside, know who you are trying to defend against. This is not the thread for people to defend AMD, this is the thread for people to bitch and moan about how AMD isn't Intel.

From the hardware agnostic, this is a thread that exists so hate doesn't spill into other threads. Please continue...
 
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I have a 8150 right now. It's super fun to play with but aside from that it's a horrible chip. I noticed some people saying it is AMD's "Fermi". That is incorrect, it is worse. Take Fermi and decrease the performace to a HD 4870 while keeping the power usage of Fermi. That is Bulldozer. Still, like I said, it's fun to play with.
 

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I have a 8150 right now. It's super fun to play with but aside from that it's a horrible chip. I noticed some people saying it is AMD's "Fermi". That is incorrect, it is worse. Take Fermi and decrease the performace to a HD 4870 while keeping the power usage of Fermi. That is Bulldozer. Still, like I said, it's fun to play with.

So, you know it's severe limitations, but you just had to have one to play with? That's the mark of a True PC Enthusiast.

Respect. :respect: :rockout:
 

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:)sounding like an intel fanboy thread this, bulldozer certainly isnt win at the min but its not as bad in its price point as some are making out imho, sure no ones going to be swapping from intel sandys for it but if your on a core 2 with ddr2 it dosnt look to bad if you drag mobo costs into the fray and for me at least with AMD you will have an upgrade path with intel it will be new socket time everytime apparently.:D just an opinion

Socket 1155 (SB) is meant to be Ivybridge compatible.
 
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I have a 8150 right now. It's super fun to play with but aside from that it's a horrible chip. I noticed some people saying it is AMD's "Fermi". That is incorrect, it is worse. Take Fermi and decrease the performace to a HD 4870 while keeping the power usage of Fermi. That is Bulldozer. Still, like I said, it's fun to play with.

can you share a few opinion about how is working in games and multitasking? have you managed to load all cores at 100 %?
 
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why BD faild? this is why:
BD die shot should look very much like this
http://cache.futurelooks.com/wordpr...1/10/AMD_Bulldozer_Review_FX-8000-500x201.png
but instead it looks like this
http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/news/2011-10/amd_bulldozer_orochi_die_floorplan.jpg

they've got 800 million transistors for in/out, logic, NB, wasted space, etc. so some how the have managed to waste a whole phenom 2 x4's worth of transistors on what should really take about, what, 150mill tansistors? also why is the "unified" L3 cache separated into 4 sections with such massive gaps?
maybe it was a learning curve using mostly software to design the chips, who knows? what is clearly evident is that they are not using the space available to them efficiently.

quoting some estimations on die area by X-bit:
"AMD publicly said that each Bulldozer dual-core CPU module with 2MB unified L2 cache contains 213 million transistors and is 30.9mm2 large. By contrast, die size of one processing engine of Llano processor (11-layer 32nm SOI, K10.5+ micro-architecture) is 9.69mm2 (without L2 cache), which indicates that AMD has succeeded in minimizing elements of its new micro-architecture so to maintain small size and production cost of the novelty.

As a result, all four CPU modules with L2 cache within Zambezi/Orochi processor consist of 852 million of transistors and take 123.6mm2 of die space. Assuming that 8MB of L3 cache (6 bits per cell) consist of 405 million of transistors, it leaves around whopping 800 million of transistors to various input/output interfaces, dual-channel DDR3 memory controller as well as various logic and routing inside the chip.

800 million of transistors - which take up a lot of die space - in an incredibly high number for various I/O, memory, logic, etc. For example, Intel's Core i-series "Sandy Bridge" quad-core chip with integrated graphics consists of 995 million."
 
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why BD faild? this is why:
BD die shot should look very much like this
http://cache.futurelooks.com/wordpr...1/10/AMD_Bulldozer_Review_FX-8000-500x201.png
but instead it looks like this
http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/news/2011-10/amd_bulldozer_orochi_die_floorplan.jpg

they've got 800 million transistors for in/out, logic, NB, wasted space, etc. so some how the have managed to waste a whole phenom 2 x4's worth of transistors on what should really take about, what, 150mill tansistors? also why is the "unified" L3 cache separated into 4 sections with such massive gaps?
maybe it was a learning curve using mostly software to design the chips, who knows? what is clearly evident is that they are not using the space available to them efficiently.

quoting some estimations on die area by X-bit:
"AMD publicly said that each Bulldozer dual-core CPU module with 2MB unified L2 cache contains 213 million transistors and is 30.9mm2 large. By contrast, die size of one processing engine of Llano processor (11-layer 32nm SOI, K10.5+ micro-architecture) is 9.69mm2 (without L2 cache), which indicates that AMD has succeeded in minimizing elements of its new micro-architecture so to maintain small size and production cost of the novelty.

As a result, all four CPU modules with L2 cache within Zambezi/Orochi processor consist of 852 million of transistors and take 123.6mm2 of die space. Assuming that 8MB of L3 cache (6 bits per cell) consist of 405 million of transistors, it leaves around whopping 800 million of transistors to various input/output interfaces, dual-channel DDR3 memory controller as well as various logic and routing inside the chip.

800 million of transistors - which take up a lot of die space - in an incredibly high number for various I/O, memory, logic, etc. For example, Intel's Core i-series "Sandy Bridge" quad-core chip with integrated graphics consists of 995 million."

you can't compare a diagram from a slide shot with a real core print....

spaces all are used as somehow magically all cores must communicate with each other and the other components so i don't know what's your point...

no cpu/gpu producer will leave 1 sqnm unused from a chip...
 
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