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Windows 8 Secure Boot: Handy Malware Backdoor for Nosy Governments?

OneMoar

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qubit, you draw the conclusion, based on one guys worst case scenerio opinion, that microsoft is evil and uefi is going to take down entire nations. Stick to the news, and stop with the opinions.

+1
 

qubit

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No, you see when an article has accurate non-bias information it is a news article. When an article has wrong information and is filled with bias and opinion from the reporter it is an editorial. Look up the definitions. What you wrote is an editorial not a news piece. If it has your opinion in it, which this does, it is an editorial. This isn't a personal attack, just the facts. But adding your own opinion to the article you made it an editorial. I'm sorry you can't take correction of your mis-information without viewing it as a personal attack.

I was responding to the FTFY - that really wasn't very nice and nor was editing my quote in that derogatory way.

I don't think the info in my article is wrong, but sure, it has my opinion and bias mixed in with it, so if you want to call that an editorial then fine, but I don't see it that way. This is the style of news I do, so you could probably call all my articles editorials when judged that way, lol. Depending on the subject, I can get my teeth stuck into some news items more than others. Something like this secure boot is rich in opportunities!

If it helps to see where I'm coming from, The Register writes news in this style, they don't read like editorials and I like reading their comments and bias on what they're reporting.

Re the facts, you've actually responded more than once to me now, with long posts broken down into sections like this one and whether I agreed with you completely or not, I still thanked you, because you took the trouble to make constructive criticism (even when you put it all rather strongly, lol) which I always appreciate. I've duly clicked against these latest two. :)

Correct, but the only people that can possibly abuse it would be hardware OEMs, but not including the option to disable Secure Boot in their UEFI setup, not Microsoft, and the hardware OEMs abusing it will not be to lock out competition. Microsoft has no say in it.

Perhaps, but it's mighty convenient for Microsoft, isn't it? This is the point that Anderson is making and I can't see anything wrong with it. This whole signing strategy basically makes a whitelist of approved operating systems that can be installed on the computer, relying on the OEM to do the right thing and provide an off switch. No, this doesn't sit comfortably with me, like anything that restricts a paying customer.


Sure you did. You put opinions in the article based on the assumption that it was Microsoft the created and pushed this technology. You obviously had no clue that in fact it was huge industry leaders that developed it and are pushing for it long before Microsoft came into the picture.

You also assumed that Microsoft was just throwing around their wallet to get their way, again not knowing the fact that the UEFI Forum is comprised of companies as big or bigger than Microsoft.

You are correct that I should have looked up the structure of the UEFI Forum and didn't realize exactly who and what it comprised of, so I'm grateful for your correction. I could have certainly made a better article with more complete info on them and I will be looking at their website in more detail before posting the next news story on this subject. Therefore, yes, Microsoft's influence would indeed be greatly diminished given the big players involved, as you say.

I don't think I said that Microsoft created it (sorry, I can't 100% remember without looking it up now) but they are pushing it forward now and in the context of the lock-in being discussed, this is significant.


I'm pretty sure the multi-billion dollar companies that make up the UEFI Forum can handle it being a non-profit and front the little bit of money it takes to maintain the standard.

A relatively small amount for the Multi-Billion dollar companies that run it.

Yes, quite. That still won't stop them putting up hurdles to shut out the small player. This is politics and potential backroom deals we're talking about here, so anything could happen. It should not be taken for granted that this UEFI Forum will act in a completely ethical way.
 

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I don't think the info in my article is wrong, but sure, it has my opinion and bias mixed in with it, so if you want to call that an editorial then fine, but I don't see it that way. This is the style of news I do, so you could probably call all my articles editorials when judged that way, lol.

I totally see all your "news" posts as editorials and I will never stop pointing it out. :)
 

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newtekie1

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I was responding to the FTFY - that really wasn't very nice and nor was editing my quote in that derogatory way.

I don't think the info in my article is wrong, but sure, it has my opinion and bias mixed in with it, so if you want to call that an editorial then fine, but I don't see it that way. This is the style of news I do, so you could probably call all my articles editorials when judged that way, lol. Depending on the subject, I can get my teeth stuck into some news items more than others. Something like this secure boot is rich in opportunities!

If it helps to see where I'm coming from, The Register writes news in this style, they don't read like editorials and I like reading their comments and bias on what they're reporting.

Re the facts, you've actually responded more than once to me now, with long posts broken down into sections like this one and whether I agreed with you completely or not, I still thanked you, because you took the trouble to make constructive criticism (even when you put it all rather strongly, lol) which I always appreciate. I've duly clicked against these latest two. :)

Yes, and I kind of read all of your news posts as editorials. I much prefer BTA's way of doing it, with just posting the facts in the first post, then putting his opinions in the second. When you put the opinions in with the information, it tends to give the reader their opinion instead of letting them form their own.

And that is why I don't tend to read The Register.


Perhaps, but it's mighty convenient for Microsoft, isn't it? This is the point that Anderson is making and I can't see anything wrong with it. This whole signing strategy basically makes a whitelist of approved operating systems that can be installed on the computer, relying on the OEM to do the right thing and provide an off switch. No, this doesn't sit comfortably with me, like anything that restricts a paying customer.


Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that you are completely wrong with calling it Windows 8's or Microsoft's Secure Boot. It is convenient for Microsoft, but it is wrong to assume it is an evil conspiracy by them. The OEM could just as easily lock the computer to just use a distro of linux that they want used on the computer. The reason I don't really have a problem with it is that 99% of people buying these pre-built PCs will leave the OS that came with it on it. The few that want to change will just have to either build their own, or make sure they buy from an OEM that give the option to disable the feature.

I don't think I said that Microsoft created it (sorry, I can't 100% remember without looking it up now) but they are pushing it forward now and in the context of the lock-in being discussed, this is significant.

You just have to look as far as this article's title. "Windows 8 Secure Boot" It has nothing to do with Windows 8 other than Microsoft requiring Secure Boot to get a Designed for Windows 8 Logo. The title should be "UEFI Secure Boot" instead. Both news articles you've posted start with "Windows 8 Secure Boot: Blah Blah". By doing that, you are saying or giving the strong impression at least that it is an invention of Microsoft as part of Windows 8, when it isn't.
 

Kreij

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I totally see all your "news" posts as editorials and I will never stop pointing it out. :)

Yup. He's Qubit. but he's OUR Qubit. Been awhile since TPU was this much fun on weekends. :)
@Qubit : Keep up the good work.
@Everyone else : Enjoy and let's have some good old fashion hashed-out, beat-down discussions. Just keep it clean and no personal attacks.

On topic : Microsoft is not alone in formulating/ratifying the standard. There are other "multi-billion dollar companies" involved in it also.

Would these be the same companies that spend millions of dollars lobbying the US government to get laws passed in their favor and pour millions into campaign funds?
When it comes time for these companies to "pay the piper" do you think they will take the moral high ground or cowtow to the wishes of those they got elected?
Just wondering.
I love conspiracy theories, btw. They are great fun.
 
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Just another reason for this to not happen.
 
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Sorry, Qubit. Gotta say I like btanrar's way of doing it better too :laugh:
 

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qubit

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Sorry, Qubit. Gotta say I like btanrar's way of doing it better too :laugh:

That's not btarunr (try spelling it correctly) that you've quoted. I would have expected better from you than take a cheap shot at me by quoting this guy crapping my thread, especially given my reply to him in the very next post. :shadedshu

Of course, he couldn't answer my challenge to contribute something useful, so he went all quiet. I of course, do contribute something useful, all the time as you know. And what do you contribute?
 
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That's not btarunr (try spelling it correctly) that you've quoted. I would have expected better from you than take a cheap shot at me by quoting this guy crapping my thread, especially given my reply to him in the very next post. :shadedshu

Of course, he couldn't answer my challenge to contribute something useful, so he went all quiet. I of course, do contribute something useful, all the time as you know. And what do you contribute?
You totally missed that I was making fun of the guy I quoted for misspelling btarunr and that I only quoted him for that purpose.
 

qubit

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You totally missed that I was making fun of the guy I quoted for misspelling btarunr and that I only quoted him for that purpose.

Yes, I did miss it, lol. Honestly, it didn't look like a joke, but I guess that's the vaguaries the written word. :) Thanks for your support. :toast:
 
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Yes, I did miss it, lol. Honestly, it didn't look like a joke, but I guess that's the vaguaries the written word. :) Thanks for your support. :toast:
I thought the :laugh: emoticon would have helped show I was joking :p
 
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W1zz, why is Qubit allowed to post "articles" in the news section? The bias present in these editorials greatly diminishes the quality of TPU, which I (and judging from previous posts, others too) have had much respect for over the last 6 years.

This bias should not be present in any news article, if anything it should be left to appear in the discussion comments.
 
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Of course it's a "Windows 8 secure boot feature" - Microsoft is the driving force behind getting it implemented in UEFI - you've just said it yourself. And do you really think that the UEFI Forum are gonna turn this down? That would be extremely naive to think so. Remember who's got the dollars here....

Apple



EDIT: I see that newtekie1 already said that.
 
Last edited:

qubit

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W1zz, why is Qubit allowed to post "articles" in the news section? The bias present in these editorials greatly diminishes the quality of TPU, which I (and judging from previous posts, others too) have had much respect for over the last 6 years.

This bias should not be present in any news article, if anything it should be left to appear in the discussion comments.

Why are you so rude, crapping in my thread?
 
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So qubit, what do these people have against you anyway ?
 
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Hey, it's DRAMA! That makes sense... qubit was promoted to create drama, since W1z seems to like it so much (april fools anyone?) :rolleyes:

Honestly, though, I've got no problems with qubit's style of writing. It's just one of those things we'll get used to. Don't, however, expect us to play nice when you go a bit to far into opinion zone without throwing up the editorial tag. ;) bta's got his style, and it's arguably better for straight news. He still throws his opinion and bias in there, but seperate from the news post. With qubit, I just tend to read the article with a grain of salt and pick out the straight facts as they lay, I think as intended. The flipside is if you write articles laden with opinion, expect to hear our opinion in return :D

Honestly I think the title of this thread should be "Windows 8 & Secure Boot: Handy Malware Backdoor..." and that would have toned down a bit of the harsh replies. For the record I'm with you, qubit, as far as your stance on secure boot.

</offtopic>

The whole industry's trend towards lock-outs, lock-ins, and lock-downs is concerning. At some point, it will no longer make sense to buy a PC as it'll just be an unsubsidized console, with a netbook attached. :(
 

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Dont need windows 8 if you are running Intel equipment remote backdoor is built in :)

:wtf:

You do know v-Pro is only available for BUSINESS grade laptops, and ONLY for users that specifically want it (and need a non-standard chipset that supports it), right?
 
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Honestly I think the title of this thread should be "Windows 8 & Secure Boot: Handy Malware Backdoor..." and that would have toned down a bit of the harsh replies. For the record I'm with you, qubit, as far as your stance on secure boot.

"Windows 8 & UEFI's Secure Boot: Handy Malware Backdoor for Nosy Governments?" would have been a better title, IMO.
 

newtekie1

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Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
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Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 10850K@5.2GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z470 Taichi
Cooling Corsair H115i Pro w/ Noctua NF-A14 Fans
Memory 32GB DDR4-3600
Video Card(s) RTX 2070 Super
Storage 500GB SX8200 Pro + 8TB with 1TB SSD Cache
Display(s) Acer Nitro VG280K 4K 28"
Case Fractal Design Define S
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply eVGA SuperNOVA 1000w G3
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
"Windows 8 & UEFI's Secure Boot: Handy Malware Backdoor for Nosy Governments?" would have been a better title, IMO.

"UEFI's Secure Boot: Handy Malware Backdoor for Nosy Governments?" would be the most accurate title, as Windows 8 has nothing to do with the implementation of Secure Boot.
 
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
376 (0.06/day)
Location
South Jersey
:wtf:

You do know v-Pro is only available for BUSINESS grade laptops, and ONLY for users that specifically want it (and need a non-standard chipset that supports it), right?

Nope I have not looked into yet. Just checked intels website about it, and it specifically states it is a matter of using the right processor...

EDIT: okay searched more and you have to have a Q series chipset. Was kinda hoping the Z68 was included in that, as I heard rumours the Z68 was going to support Vt-d like the Q series (assuming you have the right CPU and I do), but I do not have a firepro yet. Was going to look into more before I bought.

Plan was to build a Z68 based server and a firepro card, and then just build a bunch of crappy windows 7 boxes and run virtual VMs with remote FX. but I have not done the research yet as I have been busy with other peoples machines lately.
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
4,061 (0.58/day)
Location
Ancient Greece, Acropolis (Time Lord)
System Name RiseZEN Gaming PC
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X @ Auto
Motherboard Asus ROG Strix X570-E Gaming ATX Motherboard
Cooling Corsair H115i Elite Capellix AIO, 280mm Radiator, Dual RGB 140mm ML Series PWM Fans
Memory G.Skill TridentZ 64GB (4 x 16GB) DDR4 3200
Video Card(s) ASUS DUAL RX 6700 XT DUAL-RX6700XT-12G
Storage Corsair Force MP500 480GB M.2 & MP510 480GB M.2 - 2 x WD_BLACK 1TB SN850X NVMe 1TB
Display(s) ASUS ROG Strix 34” XG349C 180Hz 1440p + Asus ROG 27" MG278Q 144Hz WQHD 1440p
Case Corsair Obsidian Series 450D Gaming Case
Audio Device(s) SteelSeries 5Hv2 w/ Sound Blaster Z SE
Power Supply Corsair RM750x Power Supply
Mouse Razer Death-Adder + Viper 8K HZ Ambidextrous Gaming Mouse - Ergonomic Left Hand Edition
Keyboard Logitech G910 Orion Spectrum RGB Gaming Keyboard
Software Windows 11 Pro - 64-Bit Edition
Benchmark Scores I'm the Doctor, Doctor Who. The Definition of Gaming is PC Gaming...
The last thing we need is more government intrusion in our lives. Go away.
 

OneMoar

There is Always Moar
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
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Rochester area
System Name RPC MK2.5
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Memory CL16 BL2K16G36C16U4RL 3600 1:1 micron e-die
Video Card(s) GIGABYTE RTX 3070 Ti GAMING OC
Storage ADATA SX8200PRO NVME 512GB, Intel 545s 500GBSSD, ADATA SU800 SSD, 3TB Spinner
Display(s) LG Ultra Gear 32 1440p 165hz Dell 1440p 75hz
Case Phanteks P300 /w 300A front panel conversion
Audio Device(s) onboard
Power Supply SeaSonic Focus+ Platinum 750W
Mouse Kone burst Pro
Keyboard EVGA Z15
Software Windows 11 +startisallback

Easy Rhino

Linux Advocate
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
15,446 (2.42/day)
Location
Mid-Atlantic
System Name Desktop
Processor i5 13600KF
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Cooling Noctua NH-U9S
Memory 4x 16 Gb Gskill S5 DDR5 @6000
Video Card(s) Gigabyte Gaming OC 6750 XT 12GB
Storage WD_BLACK 4TB SN850x
Display(s) Gigabye M32U
Case Corsair Carbide 400C
Audio Device(s) On Board
Power Supply EVGA Supernova 650 P2
Mouse MX Master 3s
Keyboard Logitech G915 Wireless Clicky
Software The Matrix
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