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Melt Down Spectre update (have you)?

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You do realize if you update the mobo bios and disable the OS-side mitigations with Inspectre, literally no performance is lost?

This has gone beyond silly into full blown paranoia.

I have yet to read a single "ooh lokk what happened to me / this guy" post related to Meltdown of Spectre

Probably because few of us allow remote machine logins ala datacenters. Those will be hit hard by this.
 

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You do realize if you update the mobo bios and disable the OS-side mitigations with Inspectre, literally no performance is lost?

This has gone beyond silly into full blown paranoia.



Probably because few of us allow remote machine logins ala datacenters. Those will be hit hard by this.
that was exactly my point ?

the microcode in windows defaults to bios first > mcupdate_genuineintel.dll second

so if you repack the bios with say microcode 22H and or rename the dll then thats what the the system will use, that just leaves the OS side kernel Mitigations which are disable-able with powershel

you can check which micocode windows is using by going to

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\HARDWARE\DESCRIPTION\System\CentralProcessor\0

if the key Previous Update Revision exists then your machine got a microcode update via mcupdate_genuineintel.dll
you can safely delete mcupdate_genuineintel.dl from \system32 to revert to the microcode in the bios

the last bios for this board 1609 shipped with microcode 19 I was able to update from 19 to 22
 
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that was exactly my point ?

the microcode in windows defaults to bios first > mcupdate_genuineintel.dll second

so if you repack the bios with say microcode 22H and or rename the dll then thats what the the system will use, that just leaves the OS side kernel Mitigations which are disable-able with powershel

you can check which micocode windows is using by going to

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\HARDWARE\DESCRIPTION\System\CentralProcessor\0

if the key Previous Update Revision exists then your machine got a microcode update via mcupdate_genuineintel.dll
you can safely delete mcupdate_genuineintel.dl from \system32 to revert to the microcode in the bios

the last bios for this board 1609 shipped with microcode 19 I was able to update from 19 to 22

No offense OneMoar but I literally was unaware you had even posted. Got fed up with the paranoia about 2 posts in.
 

OneMoar

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No offense OneMoar but I literally was unaware you had even posted. Got fed up with the paranoia about 2 posts in.
LOL
well I was the only one that said I turned both off so figured you ment me
 
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Ryzen R5 2600X - Integer performance goes up with Spectre mitigation turned on but anything using Floats (FPU) there's a noticeable performance hit. It's repeatable when mitigation is toggled on or off.
Ryzen.png
 

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Ryzen R5 2600X - Integer performance goes up with Spectre mitigation turned on but anything using Floats (FPU) there's a noticeable performance hit. It's repeatable when mitigation is toggled on or off.
View attachment 103929
up by how much benchmarks plz
 
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I have mixed feelings about the subject. I think that it was blown way out of proportion to the actual risk, as journalists tend to do (it's their job). Individual users are unlikely to be targeted, but most of those individuals are connected in some way to larger groups that could be targeted at some point. And since the hardware and software vendors spent a lot of time and money patching these exploits, it would be careless to skip them. I did all of them, and lost only about 1-3% performance, so it was worth it, for me. My system is Haswell, older systems could take a larger hit..
 
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I have mixed feelings about the subject. I think that it was blown way out of proportion to the actual risk, as journalists tend to do (it's their job). Individual users are unlikely to be targeted, but most of those individuals are connected in some way to larger groups that could be targeted at some point. And since the hardware and software vendors spent a lot of time and money patching these exploits, it would be careless to skip them. I did all of them, and lost only about 1-3% performance, so it was worth it, for me. My system is Haswell, older systems could take a larger hit..
What I'm curious about is if you're having a good antivirus, actually let's say a good Internet Suite with Firewall and application control/monitoring, like KIS, or Bitdefender, or why not, Micosoft's own Windows 10 Defender...
... will this be enough for an unpatched PC? Could this stop a Meltdown or Spectre attack? I'm assuming an up to date decent browser, like Chromium based ones/Firefox.

At the same time, there are no actual exploits/viruses that use these methods in the wild, or nothing that is spread enough that is important to make it into the mainstream news.

It also seems that this will be a never-ending battle. I assume it will completely go off the radar once Intel releases their new 10nm CPUs with hardware fixes. I'm pretty sure that will also mean that older platforms, including Z370, will stop receiving microcode updates as often, if at all, and everything will be quietly get forgotten. At least, until some big attack will happen.
 

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Spectre On:
Aida64 VP8 is the one and only test in that suite that exhibits that behavior. I get the same with 8700K. I suspect it is bugged, although others suggested it's not.
If you want to get normal behavior, go in the top menu and disable SMT/HT for the test. You'll get the full, normal score, even with the Spectre protection enabled.
Don't ask me why, cause it's above my knowledge.
 
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there is no way in hell that test is correct
re-test with a better benchmark
if its really jumping that much then there is something seriously wrong with AMD's architecture .... O wait there is ... nm carry on
 
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I assume it will completely go off the radar once Intel releases their new 10nm CPUs with hardware fixes. I'm pretty sure that will also mean that older platforms, including Z370, will stop receiving microcode updates as often, if at all, and everything will be quietly get forgotten. At least, until some big attack will happen.
Intel did announce monthly microcode updates similar to Windows updates after the latest Spectre Variant 4 (Speculative Store Bypass.)
 
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updated... noticed no slow downs.

Yeah there's no reason to expect otherwise , I've had no slowdowns either. Plus I don't need the tinfoil hat, so it's been win-win :laugh:
 

cadaveca

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And since the hardware and software vendors spent a lot of time and money patching these exploits, it would be careless to skip them.
This is the crucial factor that those that do not do these updates are clearly overlooking... the millions already spent on dealing with this issue. If it wasn't something to worry about, that money would not have been spent.

But it's fine, go on ignoring security issues and thinking you know better than the businesses that make these products and then are spending countless dollars mitigating the issue. Ignorance is bliss, after all. It's no surprise to me that the users saying they are ignoring the problem are doing so... seems quite normal given the personalities. I hate to stereotype people, but when they do it themselves... :laugh:

(and @Hood, when I say "you" above, I am not directly referring to you, obviously ;))

Yeah there's no reason to expect otherwise , I've had no slowdowns either. Plus I don't need the tinfoil hat, so it's been win-win :laugh:
This is why we can have a conversation, even though we disagree on lots... because when it's really important, we agree. :toast:
 
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Could this stop a Meltdown or Spectre attack?

No, not even remotely.

However, a spectre (or even worse, metldown) attack both assumes local ability to run code on your system (no, it does not have to be admin). This is both far easier than it sounds, and also, far harder than some paranoia inducing people would have you believe, as the code that is to be run usually must be configured for your memory environment to be useful. Ie, a human must actively hack you, not a script.

If it wasn't something to worry about, that money would not have been spent.

It's more of a big worry at the datacenter level. That's why big money was spent: Datacenters ARE big money. It's also why they created reg keys to disable this for people who insist on the best performance, because to most end users who just game, it's not a huge deal.

I'd still patch, at days end. But I won't grill you for not doing so if you take your machine offline promptly once you realize something is up... and most likely, nothing will happen. There aren't enough humans to actively hack a low value target like a gaming box.
 

cadaveca

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It's more of a big worry at the datacenter level. That's why big money was spent: Datacenters ARE big money.

I'd still patch, at days end.
Part of the problem is that people don't understand how this problem could affect them, because of how the information about these issues was presented in the first place. Intel just said they'd offer quartly updates... which means they have people 24/7 dedicated to this problem. This isn't an issue that only affects data centers, at all. speculative execution is used in so many ways... including in games.

The Meltdown and Spectre exploitation techniques abuse speculative execution to access privileged memory — including that of the kernel — from a less-privileged user process such as a malicious software running on a system.

We'll see some game affected soon I think, and most would have no idea what's going on. Also awaiting disclosure of games mining while users are playing, too... :p
 
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This isn't an issue that only affects data centers, at all. speculative execution is used in so many ways... including in games.

It isn't in THEORY. But in practice the way spectre works ensures you pretty much need to be a high value target to have it used against you.

No one is going to spend time to actively hack a gaming box. A datacenter? Maybe.

This is a classic "risk vs reward" security problem.

The Meltdown and Spectre exploitation techniques abuse speculative execution to access privileged memory — including that of the kernel — from a less-privileged user process such as a malicious software running on a system.

Yes, and you also generally have to build a map of where you are when you start getting privilged shit, because what you are given is far less than predictable. Think of it as being dropped on a random street on the globe without a map. You must do legwork to do ANYTHING useful.

This requires what I'd term an "active hacking," ie a human.
 

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I don't follow this line of thinking.

https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2018/01/07/finding-a-cpu-design-bug-in-the-xbox-360/

I knew that would be the result and yet it was still amazing. All these years later, and even after reading about Meltdown, it’s still nerdy cool to see solid proof that instructions that were not executed were causing crashes.

I agree with your sentiment in the big picture, but there are things that are being overlooked by sticking to the tact that the only problems are server-side... they are just simply more prevalent there.

How can a branch that is never taken be predicted to be taken? Easy. Branch predictors don’t maintain perfect history for every branch in the executable – that would be impractical. Instead simple branch predictors typically squish together a bunch of address bits, maybe some branch history bits as well, and index into an array of two-bit entries. Thus, the branch predict result is affected by other, unrelated branches, leading to sometimes spurious predictions. But it’s okay, because it’s “just a prediction” and it doesn’t need to be right.
 
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I don't either, if you mean the not-patching part, hence me saying I'd still patch at days end.

But I can't deny they will most likely be fine. I just don't like "most likely's" on my rig.

The risk vs reward thing is the most basic principle taught in security classes these days. Like Security 101, figuratively speaking. You have to follow that part or go home.
 

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The risk vs reward thing is the most basic principle taught in security classes these days. Like Security 101, figuratively speaking. You have to follow that part or go home.

I know. But I like to live on the edge of normalcy, as you already know. That's where all the fun is.
 
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I agree with your sentiment in the big picture, but there are things that are being overlooked by sticking to the tact that the only problems are server-side... they are just simply more prevalent there.

Ah, I get what you are saying, and generally, I agree. I just don't like telling others what to do with their rigs when honestly, odds are they'll be fine.

But I like to live on the edge of normalcy, as you already know.

Hey that's my job! Go away, goat man. Frog already got this lillypad.
 
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My desktop uses a 2500k which I think has had a microcode update...but I don't think MSI will ever bother releasing a new bios for my old mobo (MSI P67A-gd65), so most likely system will remain unpatched.
Gaming laptop is definitely getting patched (the one in my specs), just don't want to mess with its bios currently as I am afraid of bricking it. I need this system working for now :p
 
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The performance loss is real. I'm not stupid enough to believe otherwise. Nor do I feel an urgent need to protect myself from something that's far less likely to happen to me than getting struck by lightning...like 2 or 3 times on the same day. If that makes me "paranoid"...your definition of "paranoid" is what needs updated.
 
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Cooling DeepCool AK620 with Arctic Silver 5
Memory 2x16GB G.Skill Trident Z5 NEO DDR5 EXPO (CL30)
Video Card(s) XFX AMD Radeon RX 7900 GRE
Storage Samsung 980 EVO 1 TB NVMe SSD (System Drive), Samsung 970 EVO 500 GB NVMe SSD (Game Drive)
Display(s) Acer Nitro XV272U (DisplayPort) and Acer Nitro XV270U (DisplayPort)
Case Lian Li LANCOOL II MESH C
Audio Device(s) On-Board Sound / Sony WH-XB910N Bluetooth Headphones
Power Supply MSI A850GF
Mouse Logitech M705
Keyboard Steelseries
Software Windows 11 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores https://valid.x86.fr/liwjs3
OK, I get it. There's a performance hit. But other than with synthetic benchmarks are you really going to see the difference? OK, so you may lose a couple of frames per second but in the grand scheme of things, who cares?
 
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