Cooling system for i7-8086k (i7-8700k) @ 5.1-5.3 GHZ

[dgianstefani]

I swear if I ever get into watercooling, this is going to be a thing. Otherwise what is the bloody point. Need to see low temps or its a total waste of time



Delidding is a last resort measure, or at least, should be, because you kill warranty with it and there is a real risk of doing it wrong which means you can brick a CPU. At the same time, the performance gained from delidding barely exists - the only reason a delid is really going to get you anywhere further is when you want to push for record OC's. The real world gain of a delid in performance is at the very best 200mhz. That is less than 5% on a 5Ghz CPU. Seems a bit weak for the risk, cost and effort involved. Most use cases however barely extract 100mhz, so you end up with performance gaps that are almost margin of error territory.

The actual fact is, YOU don't get it. Look at the recent reviews and even stock temps of the SOLDERED Intel 9th gen. That's right 90 C is not uncommon. The fact is, as transistor density / mm² goes up, so does the concentration of heat. At the same time, Intel's 7th, 8th and 9th gen CPUs have progressively increased the Vcore on stock so they basically are just overclocking CPUs out of the box for you, so headroom shrinks.

Intel's soldered CPUs have definitively proven that their 14nm Core stuff is at peak performance and you run into voltage, thermal and throughput thresholds all at the same time (its why RAM latency and freq also has noticeable effect). Clocking further makes absolutely no sense apart from epeen value. You can count your blessings if you can hit the 1-core turbo across all cores these days.

Mr. Expert presenting incomplete statistics to support his flawed opinion.

The benefit of delidding is not simply to OC harder for that "5% gain of 200mhz" but to reduce temperatures. With no other changes to the rest of the system, delidding and repasting with good thermal paste or liquid metal ideally, will result in temperature drops of between 5-20 degrees celcius, assuming your heatsink and fan assembly have the capacity to remove the additional heat transferred from the chip.

When was the last time you returned a CPU through a warranty claim? Arguing the "risk" of delidding (which is literally just removing the heatspreader, changing the underlying compound then replacing the heatspreader) is like arguing that people shouldn't perform bicycle maintenance by themselves because of the "risk" of getting something wrong. The risk is minimal if you know what you are doing and use the correct tools, and anyone who's delidded knows this. Personally I've used both the professional tools such as DerBauer's Die Mate, but also just a standard vice.

But yeah, stick to the tired argument of "it's too extreme and risky", which would certainly be true if you were computer illiterate and clumsy (sound like the members on this site?).

 

[Vayra86]

Mr. Expert presenting incomplete statistics to support his flawed opinion.

The benefit of delidding is not simply to OC harder for that "5% gain of 200mhz" but to reduce temperatures. With no other changes to the rest of the system, delidding and repasting with good thermal paste or liquid metal ideally, will result in temperature drops of between 5-20 degrees celcius, assuming your heatsink and fan assembly have the capacity to remove the additional heat transferred from the chip.

When was the last time you returned a CPU through a warranty claim? Arguing the "risk" of delidding (which is literally just removing the heatspreader, changing the underlying compound then replacing the heatspreader) is like arguing that people shouldn't perform bicycle maintenance by themselves because of the "risk" of getting something wrong. The risk is minimal if you know what you are doing and use the correct tools, and anyone who's delidded knows this. Personally I've used both the professional tools such as DerBauer's Die Mate, but also just a standard vice.

But yeah, stick to the tired argument of "it's too extreme and risky", which would certainly be true if you were computer illiterate and clumsy (sound like the members on this site?).

Temperature on its own doesn't get you anything. You've said it yourself only two posts ago. That alone makes a delid pretty pointless, because there is also barely any performance to be had. The lower temps don't suddenly create a huge amount of headroom. Regardless of cooling.

Nice stabbing btw, that really adds credibility to your post. /s

You are right its a tired argument, and 9th gen has finally put it to bed. Get the memo pls.

 

[dgianstefani]

Yeah "temperature is useless", not quite what I said was it? Temperature doesn't matter if you have it below an acceptable level in combination with an acceptable noise level, such as the 75 celcius I suggested. If you don't then of course it matters. Use your brain.

Sure you can push your chip to an all core boost that's the same as the stock single core boost, but if your temps rocket to 80-90 celcius that's not great is it?

Since you're apparently so concerned with possible failure (warranty), I would have expected you'd appreciate the relationship between temperature and failure statistics.

But yeah, go ahead and spend £500 on a new custom loop instead of the easy way to take double digit degrees off your CPU temps.

 

[Vayra86]

Yeah "temperature is useless", not quite what I said was it? Temperature doesn't matter if you have it below an acceptable level in combination with an acceptable noise level, such as the 75 celcius I suggested. If you don't then of course it matters. Use your brain.

Sure you can push your chip to an all core boost that's the same as the stock single core boost, but if your temps rocket to 80-90 celcius that's not great is it?

You do suffer from selective reading it seems... I've already projected for you that the absolute clock gain is 100-200mhz, which is still very much true, and is still under 5% of actual performance gained. I have a non-delidded 8700K running 70-80 C under a Dark Rock Pro 3 @ 4.8 Ghz. If I go higher, any sort of efficiency is out the window and I stand to gain 5%. What is the point? You still haven't touched on that bit. And if your 8700K does 90 C out of the box, then you need to do your OC proper and not trust the board's Auto values, which has been common sense since forever.

You jump from one idiocy into another, now we're suddenly spending 500 quid on custom loops too? And you have data on degrading of CPUs when they are kept within safe temps? Here's some news for you: degradation happens not because temps are within spec, but because you push high voltages too often and more often than not, the traces on your board are dying long before the CPU degrades. Temperature only matters in that sense because it can increase the voltage required to hit a certain clock, but then we are back to square one where the data points out there isn't much to be gained anyway.

If you have some sources to open my eyes to your twisted reality, please bring it on. My body is ready. Until then, you're just one of the many who jumped on the useless delid bandwagon.

 

[dgianstefani]

Here we go...
Apparently some things aren't obvious.
Some chips run hotter than others at the same frequencies, therefore an OC that would be possible on one chip within acceptable temperatures is not on another. Apparently this has to be spelt out.
To do a basic "overclock" of just changing all core to the same value as single core boost is not always possible due to temperature development. Regardless of tuned voltages or mobo auto settings which you seem to be assuming I use. Real chip upper limits are found when temperature isn't an issue, which is where that "200mhz" you keep quoting becomes relevant. Efficiency certainly decreases as temperatures increase. Look up voltage leakage in relation to temperature. Your 4.8ghz would probably be 4.9 or 5.0ghz with very similar temperatures, at the same level of efficiency (performance/power draw).

Do I really need to supply you with a reference list on how temperatures lower from the manufacturer defined upper limit are conducive to longevity? Are you actually stupid enough to believe that a chip running at 90c is just as durable as one running at 70c?

 

[Vayra86]

Here we go...
Apparently some things aren't obvious.
Some chips run hotter than others at the same frequencies, therefore an OC that would be possible on one chip within acceptable temperatures is not on another. Apparently this has to be spelt out.
To do a basic "overclock" of just changing all core to the same value as single core boost is not always possible due to temperature development. Regardless of tuned voltages or mobo auto settings which you seem to be assuming I use. Real chip upper limits are found when temperature isn't an issue, which is where that "200mhz" you keep quoting becomes relevant. Efficiency certainly decreases as temperatures increase. Look up voltage leakage in relation to temperature. Your 4.8ghz would probably be 4.9 or 5.0ghz with very similar temperatures, at the same level of efficiency (performance/power draw).

Do I really need to supply you with a reference list on how temperatures lower from the manufacturer defined upper limit are conducive to longevity? Are you actually stupid enough to believe that a chip running at 90c is just as durable as one running at 70c?

Sources. Data. That is what I go on. Not blanket statements about temperature and degradation, because the reality shows us that even a heavily overclocked CPU never *I repeat* NEVER needs additional volts to keep going after 5-7 years time.

Am I stupid enough to believe that a chip running at 90 C is as durable as the one running at 70 C? Yes. Because its the reality. The difference is not measurable in any real world scenario. There are virtually no forum posts to be found of CPUs suddenly dying because they degraded, or needing lots of extra volts to keep going. AMD GPUs even run 90 C as 'in spec' and they run it almost everywhere. If they die, its a VRM issue. Not the chip itself. Do you know why CPUs die? Not because their thermal protection kicks in... but because it DOES NOT kick in while you keep increasing voltages.

So again, no source, not buying your BS. Yes, you do really need to supply something that supports your claims. It'll be fun to watch.

 

[dgianstefani]

Believe what you want to believe.

Clearly you'd randomly choose between 90c and 70c if they were two options presented to you with all other factors being the same. One is clearly not better.

 

[Vayra86]

Believe what you want to believe.

Clearly you'd randomly choose between 90c and 70c if they were two options presented to you with all other factors being the same. One is clearly not better.

That I do. And I will keep correcting nonsense wherever I see it.

Once again you've removed every detail from this discussion with that second line of yours, omitting all the arguments I've presented to make your case. If this is your style, just stop. You won't win the war with me. Minusing the post only underlines your childish behaviour, nothing more.

 

[John Naylor]

Full custom loop. I can't recommend anything else now when I'm running with custom loop.

I won't build anything else for myself but I certainly will recommend Air Coolers or non-CLC type AIOs to those with inadequate time or money to spend.

My last custom build took me 3 weeks to build ... not everyone has the time but I enjoy it ... what else am I gonna do /... watch TV ? So it's all I will ever choose personally. But I am using multiple rads and over a dozen fans with a focus / goal of dead silence.

But if you don't have the time, I can't make a case against having EK assemble a custom loop at the factory and ship it pre-assembled. A custom loop with a 3 x 120mm rad using EK pump, res, rad and block isn't going to perform significantly different than a EK Pre-built all copper system other than using Ek makes it easier to add a water block.

You can now use the "chinese menu" method to select your components.

Pick ya block, pick ya rad / pump combo and pick ya GFX card block ...comes prefilled and ready to go ... 2 block choices.... 5 radiator / pump choices and more than 20 GFX card choices.

https://www.ekwb.com/news/ek-mlc-phoenix/

Again, not my thing but certainly better than a CLC.

 

[jboydgolfer]

That post is referring to my CPU or you are talking Generally?

My CPU is not very different from yours ,aside from hyper threading. I was simply offering my experience with the CPU of a similar design, to give you a reference point.

Personally, I don't recommend people to use benchmarks or things like prime 95 to Get an idea of a cpu's running temp. It would be like basing your car purchase on whether or not it can drive to the top of the Himalayas. Of course theoretically you could do it (I suppose), but you're never going to ,so why purchase a vehicle that's capable of it? I purchase my coolers ,and other components with a similar mind set. Purchase what you'll realistically require, not what you hypothetically might need

 

[dgianstefani]

I won't build anything else for myself but I certainly will recommend Air Coolers or non-CLC type AIOs to those with inadequate time or money to spend.

My last custom build took me 3 weeks to build ... not everyone has the time but I enjoy it ... what else am I gonna do /... watch TV ? So it's all I will ever choose personally. But I am using multiple rads and over a dozen fans with a focus / goal of dead silence.

But if you don't have the time, I can't make a case against having EK assemble a custom loop at the factory and ship it pre-assembled. A custom loop with a 3 x 120mm rad using EK pump, res, rad and block isn't going to perform significantly different than a EK Pre-built all copper system other than using Ek makes it easier to add a water block.

You can now use the "chinese menu" method to select your components.

Pick ya block, pick ya rad / pump combo and pick ya GFX card block ...comes prefilled and ready to go ... 2 block choices.... 5 radiator / pump choices and more than 20 GFX card choices.

https://www.ekwb.com/news/ek-mlc-phoenix/

Again, not my thing but certainly better than a CLC.

Yup, good quality Air or fully custom Water are the only two reasonable options IMO. CLC's are trash and always will be, plus they're typically twice the price or more than a comparable high end air, with marginal performance benefits on sub 150w hardware.

CLC's also don't give airflow over the VRMs and power delivery chips, which can lead to overheating if case airflow is not set up properly.

 

[FireFox]

CLC's also don't give airflow over the VRMs and power delivery chips, which can lead to overheating if case airflow is not set up properly.

Maybe your CLC don't give Airflow over the VRMs, ops i forgot you don't have a CLC

however your statement is wrong at least in the way my CLC is built all the Hardware inside the case are cooled enough, i am wondering your temps inside the case

CLC's are trash and always will be

I don't mean to be rude but that is exactly what everybody says when they cant build one.

plus they're typically twice the price or more than a comparable high end air,

I don't see any problem if you can afford it

 

[dgianstefani]

CLCs are trash because they can always fail, and when (not if, they will fail at some point) they fail it's most often resulting in destroying the system they're installed in. AIO CLCs are the worst, but anything except fully custom, single metal, with high quality fittings (enjoy spending £20-50 per fitting), perfectly measured tubing/glass, a pump with more than 100,000 MTBF etc. etc. is just not worth it when comparing benefits to drawbacks, price not even included in that calculation. When you factor in the price of a "good" AIO CLC, which is between £100-300 new, with a worthy custom job starting at around £400 new (plus a lot of time and effort), it becomes very clear what type of cooling logically makes the most sense.

For bragging rights, or if you actually need more than 200-300W CPU cooling and want to liquid cool your GPU's too, plus you have excellent knowledge on how to pick and assemble parts, or you are willing to pay someone else to, plus if budget doesn't matter, then yes, custom water cooling makes sense. But for the rest of us, which is basically 95%+, CLCs, especially AIO CLCs don't make sense.

 

[Vario]

Honestly any cooler beyond an air cooler is a waste when you can consider spending the money spent on a loop instead on a faster SSD, faster videocard, faster ram, better motherboard, or set aside for a future upgrade.

 

[dgianstefani]

Honestly any cooler beyond an air cooler is a waste when you can consider spending the money spent on a loop instead on a faster SSD, faster videocard, faster ram, better motherboard, or set aside for a future upgrade.

I would agree, up to a point, like I said, there are specific thermal circumstances which would warrant high end liquid cooling. For everything else, high end air is more than sufficient and can be tuned and customised to perform well and be very quiet.

 

[FireFox]

any cooler beyond an air cooler is a waste

Of course we wont never agree, now because Aircooler owners are happy running their CPU at 70c now i have to do the same and if build a CLC because i care about my CPU temps more than those Aircooler owners care about their then it is a waste? cut the crap.

I am old enough to know what i want.

CLC's are trash and always will be

I feel the same way about Aircooling

Btw, this Thread is way off Topic because you and me

 

[Vario]

Of course we wont never agree, now because Aircooler owners are happy running their CPU at 70c now i have to do the same and if build a CLC because i care about my CPU temps more than those Aircooler owners care about their then it is a waste? cut the crap.

I am old enough to know what i want.



I feel the same way about Aircooling

Btw, this Thread is way off Topic because you and me

Hey I have no problems with you running one, you are a guy that wants the best and I can appreciate that.

 

[dgianstefani]

That I do. And I will keep correcting nonsense wherever I see it.

Once again you've removed every detail from this discussion with that second line of yours, omitting all the arguments I've presented to make your case. If this is your style, just stop. You won't win the war with me. Minusing the post only underlines your childish behaviour, nothing more.

Max core temp is 98C (Tjunction). Intel recommend a max of 72C for (Tcase) (entire CPU)

Educate yourself.

 

[totalfreq]

For those that were wondering I have some results:

I'm running at a super stable 5.2ghz AVX -1 with a healthy 1.424v without exceeding 90c in any test (I'm going op back the voltage down but I wanted the head room for testing).

I ran Prime95 stable for 1 hr = max 89c on one core <= 86c on the rest of the cores

I also ran firestrike v1.1 https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/30267016

Below are screenshots of the other tests I ran (all back to back with no reset). Unfortunately CPU-Z will not show my current score at these settings - it just keeps popping up with my 5.386ghz run @ 95c (which was unsustainable with my cooling solution)

Now to start clocking the ram.

 

[FireFox]

Weird that at 5.2GHz you got just 1680 cb

5.2GHz should be 1700 cb+

I guess you still need to do some tweaks?

 

[Vario]

Does Cinebench use AVX? Could be his offset.

 

[FireFox]

I don't know even so he is running 5.2ghz AVX -1 = 5.1GHz if Cinebench use AVX still his score should be higher than mine

 

[John Naylor]

Maybe your CLC don't give Airflow over the VRMs, ops i forgot you don't have a CLC however your statement is wrong at least in the way my CLC is built all the Hardware inside the case are cooled enough, i am wondering your temps inside the case

I don't mean to be rude but that is exactly what everybody says when they cant build one.

I don't see any problem if you can afford it

1. Exactly where is the air over the MoBo coming from ? .. with a typical 2 intake fans in front, one in rear and thge CLC fans on top blowing out in direct conflict with manufacturers recommendations, what's specifically targeting the VRM ? I water cool the VRMs. Unless you are doing extreme overclocking, bus overclocking or have poor case ventilation, this wont be an issue. If you are really pushing the OCs, you'll want air flow fans enough to remove case air 1.5 to 2.0 times per second and, potentially, spot cooling if there are any dead spots as usually exist in ITX builds. This is more of an issue with many hybrid CLC coolers which cool the GPU only. Lately some manufacturers have been offering auxillary cooling but it's barely equal of lee=ss as far as VRN are concerned. Think about that ... once uses a 2 x 120mm CLC for their 90 watt CPU but 1 x 120mm for their 300 watt GFX card ???? Something very wrong with that picture,

2.a Ya gotta explain how one "builds" an AIP that is pre-built at the factory ?

2.b reasons why CLCs are "crap"

a) Weak pumps (0.11 gpm on H100i)
b) Extreme Speed fans (noise)
c) Aluminum rads
d) Can not augment corrosion inhibitors after useful life expires (18 - 24 month life span)
e) Not expandable to add MoBo Blocks, GFX card Blocks, extra rads
f) Mixed metals (copper block / aluminum rads) violates 1st rule of water cooling creating a galvanic corrosion cell
https://martinsliquidlab.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/corrosion-explored/

3. I don't don't see a problem unless you believe that you are actually getting something fo your money The old argument was "I don't want a big heavy 2 pound weight hanging off my mobo". And if you routinely ship your machine around by FedEx Ground Gorillas, ya got a pointt. But it's a silly argument when the PC sits on a desk with a water block held down by 70 pounds of claming force. It's also a silly argument when it's done based upon the assumption that it's bringing something to the table. A $45 Scythe Fuma will outperform almost every CLC on the market and they cost 3 times more. The H100i is 11.3 times louder than the Noctua NH-D15. So the only thing left is that you either find the air cooler aesthetically untenable or it's all about impressing one's friends and RGB..

4. Finally, why would you spend $150 on a CLC (Crappy Liquid Cooling) when any reason or objection one could have is eliminated by custom loop kits pre-assembled at with commonly used higher quality custom loop parts the factory.,,, for the same price of less.

a) 1.0 - 1.5 gpm flow rates
b) better fans
c) Copper rads
d) Can add corrosion inhibitors but far less significant (see f)
e) Are expandable to add MoBo and GFX Blocks
f) Have copper blocks and copper rads so no galvanic corrosion cell which makes CPU block look like this after years of usage.

OLC Swiftech H240X w/ Copper rad= $135
CLC Kraken X62 w/ aluminum rad= $188

OLC Swiftech H320X = $165
CLC Corsair15i - $170

 

[FireFox]

1. Exactly where is the air over the MoBo coming from ?

I don't know my Motherboard's VRM temps but all what i can say is that inside my Case the temp is 18c that means 9c below room temp, i guess that the lower the temps inside the Case is and the cooler the components are, or maybe am i wrong?
Max Temp while Gaming is 36c.

Incorrect sensor reading. How can the air inside the computer be cooler than room temp? Unless you are filling it with dry ice blocks every so often...

Easy

Put a Radiator inside the case with two fans attached to it turn on the Chiller and cool the water at 10c what do you think it's going to happen inside the case? when using Waterchiller you dont need Rads but i placed one inside the case knowing that doing so temps would drop.

Clever use of a chiller, I like! You don't have problems with condensation on the rad?

Answer to the rest of your post:

I am aware of every single point you mentioned above and i know the Pros and Cons very well, i would like to tell you that i started building CLC yesterday or a week ago but I'm sorry to disappoint you.


Note: We don't need to keep this conversation going over and over again, i am kinda bored

 

[totalfreq]

Weird that at 5.2GHz you got just 1680 cb

5.2GHz should be 1700 cb+

View attachment 110479



I guess you still need to do some tweaks?

I re-ran the test today - possible windows was doing an update or something when I ran it yesterday (I'm on a clean install). - and yes still tweaking...working on the ram now.