Health , Medical ;

[dont whant to set it"']

If this topic is not suited for the forum subsection......

Mystery lung illness linked to vaping reported in nearly 100 people

Medical authorities say it is unclear whether patients will fully recover

www.independent.co.uk

Remember that scientist from the "Thank you for smoking" film , some say it's the "Stig".

 

[dont whant to set it"']

First death linked to vaping reported in Illinois

The Illinois case comes as US health officials track 193 cases of a lung illness reported by vapers.

www.bbc.co.uk

Why go all the trouble to vape good ganja ?, potentially spoiling it it's beyond me.

 

[Vayra86]

Kinda what I've always thought wrt vaping and e-cigs. Can't be healthier than normal smoking. And its not. I'll take the slow creeping death over the sudden one, thanks

Doesn't change the habit being bad of course, but so are many habits.

 

[silentbogo]

Haven't tried these "sigs for kids"... too skeptical, especially since e-sigs and vape aren't regulated at all.
My younger bro quit vaping and "regressed" back to smoking a couple of years ago. Vape gave him lung irritation and slight pain in the chest area. Doctors said that everything is fine, and there is nothing they could find to attribute to this (not even slight bronchi/lung inflammation). As soon as he stopped vaping - all symptoms went away within a couple of days and never came back until he tried vaping again last summer.
I'm a smoker myself, but at least I know what's in my cigarettes and where they came from.

 

[Vya Domus]

Vaping is a meme anyway.

 

[authorized]

Nothing else than fearmongering. Perhaps they were vaping some weird shit and that's what made them ill, just like it sometimes happens with contaminated drugs.
Nearly 100 cases of mysterious illness possibly linked to vaping vs many millions vapers in the world, somehow I'm not convinced. If there are still undiscovered harmful effects, discover them and present specific information.

@silentbogo
I doubt you know all the toxins and other substances that are in your fags, there are hundreds if not thousands of them.

 

[Vario]

Vapers will be in denial that their chosen past time is harmful to their health. You haven't really "quit" if you switched from tobacco to vapor. You just substituted one addiction for another. The trouble with vaping is its even easier and socially acceptable to consume large quantities of chemicals in a shorter period in any place at any time. Its easy to reach high levels of hourly nicotine intake. One can vape pretty much non stop, consuming greater amounts of nicotine than possible with smoking cigarettes, and subsequently quitting vaping and nicotine products all together will become more difficult (truly quitting, not substituting vaping with cigarettes, chew, cigars, patch, gum, etc).

 

[authorized]

It's not denial when there is nothing substantial to deny. And the argument is not that vaping is harmless, but rather that it is a less harmful alternative to smoking. Also, it's not another addiction, it's the very same one, nicotine.
You must have never been a smoker or vaper if you believe you can do either non-stop. You feel unwell and get headaches with too large amounts of nicotine in your body.

 

[eidairaman1]

I watched a video on smoking and vaping, vaping is for those who want to quit smoking, it is a little safer, however those who never smoked to begin with shouldn't smoke or vape anyway. Our lungs weren't created to hold smoke, water, vapors, only gaseous form of oxygen & nitrogen

 

[the54thvoid]

I watched a video on smoking and vaping, vaping is for those who want to quit smoking, it is a little safer, however those who never smoked to begin with shouldn't smoke or vape anyway. Our lungs weren't created to hold smoke, water, vapors, only gaseous form of oxygen & nitrogen

Pretty much bang on.

Edit: should also say, it's not really the nicotine that makes cigarettes so nasty. As mentioned, the thousands of other chemicals and the other evil stuff... tar.

 

[Vayra86]

Nothing else than fearmongering. Perhaps they were vaping some weird shit and that's what made them ill, just like it sometimes happens with contaminated drugs.
Nearly 100 cases of mysterious illness possibly linked to vaping vs many millions vapers in the world, somehow I'm not convinced. If there are still undiscovered harmful effects, discover them and present specific information.

@silentbogo
I doubt you know all the toxins and other substances that are in your fags, there are hundreds if not thousands of them.

No its not fearmongering; it was always known these products contained chemicals of which the health implications were largely unknown and in sufficient quantities, harmful. Now some time has passed and I can guarantee you, there will be more deaths like these.

The product is not regulated or controlled like tobacco, and remember, we used to think tobacco was harmless as well. Same sort of lobby, too. Make no mistake, if medical investigations determine these effects, they simply apply to the product - not to the person who may or may not suffer from it.

Whether or not you die from vapin or smoking is influenced by an endless amount of other influences and lifestyle. But we can still say neither makes you healthier and we KNOW they both increase health risk.

All the other noise only serves to please addicts in their idea that they can keep doing what they do. Note: Im a smoker too. But Im not blinding myself from the obvious truth and health risks, but choose to face them and accept them. No point in lying to yourself.


Oh, and about doing it nonstop and feeling unwell.. I have seen too many examples of people doing exactly that allday every day, and they do 'fine' in their own version of reality.

 

[Zareek]

I think doing or consuming anything excessively is unhealthy. I also know that big tobacco companies have spent billions of dollars vilifying and lobbying against vaping. It is prudent to question anything and everything on the subject because of that alone.

In the end I'm not surprised that people who are purposely inhaling artificial vapors into their lungs for recreation or as an alternative to another addictive habit are having problems because of it.

In the interest of being completely transparent, I quit smoking almost 19 years ago. I tried vaping and I like it too much, so I quit that too. If I can't take part in something in moderation I give it up. The one exception is eating. I still haven't figured out a way to give up eating completely and still remain living, so I'm trying my best to do that in moderation...

 

[authorized]

@Vayra86
I don't think it's the same kind of lobbying at all. Big tobacco is a filthy rich conglomerate. What are the big, rich companies lobbying for e-cigs?
Also worth to note that big tobacco, while engaging propaganda war against new competition, is at the same time investing into their own vaping products. It's pure business for them, nothing else, they're doing it to take over as much of this new market as they can.

There's hardly any point in regulations when the end product is toxic anyway. What are they regulating really, how much poisonous it is? It's a little absurd, don't you think?
In the end, you prefer the product that is harmful to you for certain, rather than one that might have unknown, yet undiscovered risks associated with it.

 

[Vario]

It's not denial when there is nothing substantial to deny. And the argument is not that vaping is harmless, but rather that it is a less harmful alternative to smoking. Also, it's not another addiction, it's the very same one, nicotine.

Exactly my point. But there are those that habitually vape that say "vaping helped me quit smoking", a form of denial about their own nicotine addiction. Or those that deny that vaping is harmful. Downplay the ancillary risk of heated propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine, heavy metals in chinese made coils, exploding batteries, food flavorings not intended for lungs, and nicotine itself. The argument that cigarettes are bad, therefore vaping must be less bad is foolish. They are both bad. Both are entirely optional for life. You do not need a nicotine addiction to live. Life is not a binary choice between vaping or smoking. Its a false dichotomy.

You must have never been a smoker or vaper if you believe you can do either non-stop. You feel unwell and get headaches with too large amounts of nicotine in your body.

When I was a young adult, I smoked cigars and cigarettes occasionally at social gatherings and they didn't make me want to pursue an addiction, I know enough about the health risks of smoking, and the the taste and smell was disgusting, lastly I didn't want to waste money on it. Smoking a cigar gives that feeling of overstimulation from the amount of nicotine in it. However, tolerance rises with use and I would bet that habitual vapers are intaking more nicotine then they would otherwise with cigarettes because there is less of a limitation on its use: Its cheaper, less stigmatized, more hygenic, and can be used inside. The addition of candy flavorings improving the taste, and the attraction of electronics gizmos also increases the appeal of use compared to cigarettes.

 

[Zareek]

@Vayra
I don't think it's the same kind of lobbying at all. Big tobacco is a filthy rich conglomerate. What are the big, rich companies lobbying for e-cigs?
Also worth to note that big tobacco, while engaging propaganda war against new competition, is at the same time investing into their own vaping products. It's pure business for them, nothing else, they're doing it to take over as much of this new market as they can.

It's totally true and in many ways worse. Like how tobacco companies refined tobacco and added additional nicotine to make them more addictive, their e-cigs are easier to use, typically disposable and have much higher nicotine concentrations than the alternatives.

 

[Deleted member 67555]

I literally quit smoking by vaping.
I smoked for 20 years and switched to a Vuse Vibe and after a year of that I went to a "Vape Kit" and that's when I gave up nicotine... I felt so shitty after a week I decided nicotine wasn't worth it anymore and just quit.
Any time I got a real bad craving for the feel of a draw or started feeling severely diva-ish I'd smoke a thin joint (Pinner) of some weak as marijuana and that would keep me calm.

 

[Vario]

I've played online games (another addiction for some people) with gamers that vape constantly like every minute on the minute, sometimes even more frequently, evidenced with an open microphone on discord/teamspeak, there are people that consume this stuff non stop.

I literally quit smoking by vaping.
I smoked for 20 years and switched to a Vuse Vibe and after a year of that I went to a "Vape Kit" and that's when I gave up nicotine... I felt so shitty after a week I decided nicotine wasn't worth it anymore and just quit.
Any time I got a real bad craving for the feel of a draw or started feeling severely diva-ish I'd smoke a thin joint (Pinner) of some weak as marijuana and that would keep me calm.

Nice job man.

 

[Zareek]

Exactly my point. But there are those that say "vaping helped me quit smoking", a form of denial about their own nicotine addiction. Or those that deny that vaping is harmful. Downplay the ancillary risk of heated propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine, heavy metals in chinese made coils, exploding batteries, food flavorings not intended for lungs, and nicotine itself. The argument that cigarettes are bad, therefore vaping must be less bad is foolish. They are both bad. Both are entirely optional for life. You do not need a nicotine addiction to live. Life is not a binary choice between vaping or smoking. Its a false dichotomy.


When I was a young adult, I smoked cigars and cigarettes occasionally at social gatherings and they didn't make me want to pursue an addiction, I know enough about the health risks of smoking, and the the taste and smell was disgusting, lastly I didn't want to waste money on it. Smoking a cigar gives that feeling of overstimulation from the amount of nicotine in it. However, tolerance rises with use and I would bet that habitual vapers are intaking more nicotine then they would otherwise with cigarettes because there is less of a limitation on its use: Its cheaper, less stigmatized, more hygenic, and can be used inside. The addition of candy flavorings improving the taste, and the attraction of electronics gizmos also increases the appeal of use.

Yes and no... Vaping is definitely easier to get off and ween yourself off of. You can also go the flip side and really consume a lot more nicotine. Tobacco has tar and is loaded with known carcinogens. PG and VG have not been scientifically linked to anything anywhere near as bad. Just like anything made in China off-label there are risks. There are also reputable vendors. That goes for coils, batteries, vape juice, pretty much everything. Anything in excess is bad. You can die from drinking too much water! There is little doubt that vaping is better for you than smoking although having less down sides and variable flavor choices may actually make it more addictive if you add nicotine as well.

 

[Vario]

Yes and no... Vaping is definitely easier to get off and ween yourself off of. You can also go the flip side and really consume a lot more nicotine. Tobacco has tar and is loaded with known carcinogens. PG and VG have not been scientifically linked to anything anywhere near as bad. Just like anything made in China off-label there are risks. There are also reputable vendors. That goes for coils, batteries, vape juice, pretty much everything. Anything in excess is bad. You can die from drinking too much water! There is little doubt that vaping is better for you than smoking although having less down sides and variable flavor choices may actually make it more addictive if you add nicotine as well.

Its absurd to bring up drinking excess water, something no one would do. It is absurd additionally as water is a necessity for life, while nicotine inhalation is not necessary for life.

PG, VG, and flavoring agents all contribute to toxic aldehyde production which causes lung damage.
Nicotine causes cardiovascular damage.

A Review of Pulmonary Toxicity of Electronic Cigarettes In The Context of Smoking: A Focus On Inflammation

A Review of Pulmonary Toxicity of Electronic Cigarettes In The Context of Smoking: A Focus On Inflammation

The use of electronic cigarettes (e-cigs) is increasing rapidly, but their effects on lung toxicity are largely unknown. Smoking is a well-established cause of lung cancer and respiratory disease, in part through inflammation. It is plausible that e-cig ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Comparison of the effects of e-cigarette vapor with cigarette smoke on lung function and inflammation in mice.

Comparison of the effects of e-cigarette vapor with cigarette smoke on lung function and inflammation in mice - PubMed

Electronic cigarettes (e-cigs) are advertised as a less harmful nicotine delivery system or as a new smoking cessation tool. We aimed to assess the in vivo effects of e-cig vapor in the lung and to compare them to those of cigarette smoke (CS). We exposed C57BL/6 mice for either 3 days or 4 wk...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The toxic potential of a fourth-generation E-cigarette on human lung cell lines and tissue explants.

The toxic potential of a fourth-generation E-cigarette on human lung cell lines and tissue explants - PubMed

The use of electronic cigarettes (E-cigs) is rapidly increasing. The latest generation of E-cigs is highly customizable, allowing for high heating coil temperatures. The aim of this study was to assess the toxic potential of a fourth-generation E-cig. Aerosols generated from E-liquid with (24...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The customizable e-cigarette resistance influences toxicological outcomes: lung degeneration, inflammation and oxidative stress-induced in a rat model.

The Customizable E-cigarette Resistance Influences Toxicological Outcomes: Lung Degeneration, Inflammation, and Oxidative Stress-Induced in a Rat Model - PubMed

Despite the knowledge gap regarding the risk-benefit ratio of the electronic cigarette (e-cig), its use has grown exponentially, even in teenagers. E-cig vapor contains carcinogenic compounds (eg, formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, and acrolein) and free radicals, especially reactive oxygen species...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Chronic E-Cigarette Use Increases Neutrophil Elastase and Matrix Metalloprotease Levels in the Lung.

Chronic E-Cigarette Use Increases Neutrophil Elastase and Matrix Metalloprotease Levels in the Lung - PubMed

<span><b>Rationale:</b> Proteolysis is a key aspect of the lung's innate immune system. Proteases, including neutrophil elastase and MMPs (matrix metalloproteases), modulate cell signaling, inflammation, tissue remodeling, and leukocyte recruitment via cleavage of their target proteins...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Flavoring Compounds Dominate Toxic Aldehyde Production during E-Cigarette Vaping.

Flavoring Compounds Dominate Toxic Aldehyde Production during E-Cigarette Vaping - PubMed

The growing popularity of electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) raises concerns about the possibility of adverse health effects to primary users and people exposed to e-cigarette vapors. E-Cigarettes offer a very wide variety of flavors, which is one of the main factors that attract new...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Exposure to electronic cigarette vapors affects pulmonary and systemic expression of circadian molecular clock genes

Exposure to electronic cigarette vapors affects pulmonary and systemic expression of circadian molecular clock genes

E‐cigarette use has exploded in the past years, especially among young adults and smokers desiring to quit. While concerns are mostly based on the presence of nicotine and flavors, pulmonary effects of propylene glycol and glycerol inhalation, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Edit: Also, while adult users on this forum may be capable of making adult decisions about the frequency and quantity of vaping, teenagers are using vapes in increasing numbers without having a history of smoking, and there are effects of nicotine on the developing human brain as well as issues such as frequency of vaping due to teenagers' inherent low impulse control and the coupled desire for flavorings and the addictive properties of nicotine.

 

[authorized]

When I was a young adult, I smoked cigars and cigarettes occasionally at social gatherings and they didn't make me want to pursue an addiction, I know enough about the health risks of smoking, and the the taste and smell was disgusting, lastly I didn't want to waste money on it. Smoking a cigar gives that feeling of overstimulation from the amount of nicotine in it. However, tolerance rises with use and I would bet that habitual vapers are intaking more nicotine then they would otherwise with cigarettes because there is less of a limitation on its use: Its cheaper, less stigmatized, more hygenic, and can be used inside. The addition of candy flavorings improving the taste, and the attraction of electronics gizmos also increases the appeal of use compared to cigarettes.

Obviously I can't speak for others and I am aware that there are heavy smokers out there that are capable of going through 3 packs per day, but in my experience with both cigarettes and vaping, there is a limit of continuous intake beyond which I start feeling like shit and I believe it's the same for most people.

What is the idea that vaping makes people intake more nicotine based on? If it's just a presumption, we can pretty much put that together with video games causing real life violence. Are there at least studies that confirm it? On average that is, because in the end it's a personal choice anyway.

I recently switched from 18mg to 12mg liquids, yet I don't vape more. It didn't require any effort, I just don't need more. And I don't experience increased craving, apparently I just didn't need as much as I thought. Makes me want to try even lower dosage still and see what happens.

I've played online games (another addiction for some people) with gamers that vape constantly like every minute on the minute, sometimes even more frequently, evidenced with an open microphone on discord/teamspeak, there are people that consume this stuff non stop.

It is quite possible that they were vaping liquids without nicotine, or with a small amount of it.
If they want to vape more just for the sake of it, that's their problem.

 

[Vayra86]

@Vayra86
I don't think it's the same kind of lobbying at all. Big tobacco is a filthy rich conglomerate. What are the big, rich companies lobbying for e-cigs?
Also worth to note that big tobacco, while engaging propaganda war against new competition, is at the same time investing into their own vaping products. It's pure business for them, nothing else, they're doing it to take over as much of this new market as they can.

There's hardly any point in regulations when the end product is toxic anyway. What are they regulating really, how much poisonous it is? It's a little absurd, don't you think?
In the end, you prefer the product that is harmful to you for certain, rather than one that might have unknown, yet undiscovered risks associated with it.

Regulation and the limits set for substances are most definitely useful because these are now the basis on which we see big tobacco implementing ways to reduce tar intake for example; and failing or straight up misleading us because their business model falls apart. And that in turn creates a legal basis to combat their influence.

Look up Benedicte Ficque, a Dutch lawyer taking the fight to big tobacco - and she will likely win, too.

 

[authorized]

Edit: Also, while adult users on this forum may be capable of making adult decisions about the frequency and quantity of vaping, teenagers are using vapes in increasing numbers without having a history of smoking, and there are effects of nicotine on the developing human brain as well as issues such as frequency of vaping due to teenagers' inherent low impulse control and the coupled desire for flavorings and the addictive properties of nicotine.

That's a different issue, I feel. Selling cigs or alcohol to minors is illegal and so it should be for nicotine liquids, I can't really see any difference.

Regulation and the limits set for substances are most definitely useful because these are now the basis on which we see big tobacco implementing ways to reduce tar intake for example; and failing or straight up misleading us because their business model falls apart. And that in turn creates a legal basis to combat their influence.

Look up Benedicte Ficque, a Dutch lawyer taking the fight to big tobacco - and she will likely win, too.

So... it is about regulating how poisonous they are.
I mean, it's great if they can slap those companies for deliberately putting unnecessary but harmful components into their cigarettes, but that doesn't change the fact that cigs are toxic by their very nature and that can't be changed.

 

[Vario]

What is the idea that vaping makes people intake more nicotine based on? If it's just a presumption, we can pretty much put that together with video games causing real life violence. Are there at least studies that confirm it? On average that is, because in the end it's a personal choice anyway.

How Does Smoking and Nicotine Dependence Change after Onset of Vaping?
CONCLUSIONS:
Dual use leads to a reduction in the number of combustible cigarettes, but total nicotine use and dependence increases.
How Does Smoking and Nicotine Dependence Change after Onset of Vaping? A Retrospective Analysis of Dual Users.

How Does Smoking and Nicotine Dependence Change After Onset of Vaping? A Retrospective Analysis of Dual Users - PubMed

In dual users, a reduction in smoking following onset of vaping may offer some harm reduction via reduction in cigarette intake. However, the increase in total nicotine use and dependence could affect the ability to quit either or both products.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Are electronic nicotine delivery systems helping cigarette smokers quit? Evidence from a prospective cohort study of U.S. adult smokers, 2015-2016.
The adjusted odds of quitting smoking were lower for those that used ENDS at baseline (9.4%, 95% CI = 5.22%-16.38%; AOR = 0.30, 95% CI = 0.13-0.72) compared to smokers who did not use at ENDS
(18.9%, 95% CI = 14.24%-24.68%). Smokers who used ENDS daily at some point during the study period were also less likely to quit smoking than nonusers (AOR = 0.17; 95% CI = 0.04-0.82).
We found no evidence that ENDS use, within context of the 2015-2016 US regulatory and tobacco/vaping market landscape, helped adult smokers quit at rates higher than smokers who did not use these products

Are electronic nicotine delivery systems helping cigarette smokers quit? Evidence from a prospective cohort study of U.S. adult smokers, 2015-2016 - PubMed

We found no evidence that ENDS use, within context of the 2015-2016 US regulatory and tobacco/vaping market landscape, helped adult smokers quit at rates higher than smokers who did not use these products. Absent any meaningful changes, ENDS use among adult smokers is unlikely to be a sufficient...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[authorized]

@Vario
That's for dual users, that's not what we're talking about here.
I don't even know what's the point of doing both.

 

[Vario]

@Vario
That's for dual users, that's not what we're talking about here.
I don't even know what's the point of doing both.

Often, people justify harm reduction from going from cigarettes to vaping, justifying vaping as a safer means to satisfy a nicotine addiction. However, that study shows they consume more nicotine as a result.