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Trying to understand Ryzen 3000 series boost speed variations

tabascosauz

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So, can i now starr to learn what i asked please?
Talking effectiveness only what is the point of dimishing returns?
Would either of those two be better than the silent wings? If so which, or both?
I know that with rad fans its about their static pressure but when does enough become too much? Or does it? The silent wings 2 has 1.25, the b12 3 2.o and their ARGB one 1.5 say.
So is 1.5 still good ot is it too much? If not is 2.0 too much and if so, why?

Like CFM, static pressure is an "up to" statistic. That's at 1900rpm. Your ears don't want you to be constantly running your fans at 1900rpm.

The quieter ones will be fine. Preferably, these manufacturers would all provide CFM/static pressure graphs to show exactly how the fans perform at every point in their RPM band.

My main concern is the fan's construction; Be Quiet hasn't been a great purveyor of fan bearings with the original Silent Wings being a rifle bearing fan, and the 2 being HDB which is popular but really just a souped up sleeve bearing.

My bad, that was the Pure Wings I was thinking about. General point still stands.
 
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Like CFM, static pressure is an "up to" statistic. That's at 1900rpm. Your ears don't want you to be constantly running your fans at 1900rpm.

The quieter ones will be fine. Preferably, these manufacturers would all provide CFM/static pressure graphs to show exactly how the fans perform at every point in their RPM band.

My main concern is the fan's construction; Be Quiet hasn't been a great purveyor of fan bearings with the original Silent Wings being a rifle bearing fan, and the 2 being HDB which is popular but really just a souped up sleeve bearing.
The quieter ones are less pressure than the silent wings though?
1.04 compared to 1.24
 
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If you want a quiet case, have the radiator at the top. Hot air drives less pressure. Also, radiator interface works better when there is more temperature & air flux @ low pressure.
 
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question time - @Zach_01 @tabascosauz @Fry178

This AIO uses Pure Wings 2 fans -
Air Pressure 1.25 mmH2O
Air Flow 87 m3/h

I know there are fans that have better numbers. Just talking efficiency here now, not cost - are there better fans that could be got for it, if so, which?

(Remember, I'm totally new to rads etc, so I don't know if there is a point where you can no longer effectively improve the heat loss with a fin density of 15 FPI)

I see that the Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-3 Bionic fan 1900rpm ( 120x120x25mm ) has the following specs -
Pressure: 1,997 mmH2O
Air flow rate: 121.2 m3 / h

the Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-2 Bionic fan 1300rpm ( 120x120x25mm ) has the following specs -
Pressure: 1.042mmH2O
Air flow rate: 86.9 m3 / h

the Noiseblocker NB-eLoop X B12-PS ARGB, PWM - 120mm, black Fan -
Pressure: <1.475 mmH2O
Air flow rate: <98.7 m3/hr


But which looks better? If any? And why?

I know that the FPI for the rad is 15, but I do Not know the optimum figures for a fan for it - can any of you help there?
By the numbers... not good fans those PureWings2... low airflow, low pressure.
I dont know if there is an optimal flow/pressure per fin density. I just knew that for rads in general, static pressure is more important than airflow, and that 1.25mmH2O is really low. That B12-3 is stronger but there are better than this. Cost and noise(db) of the 3 models you posted?

I not suggesting but just showing:

Expensive and noisy but 3mmH2O

Much less expensive, noisy and 4mmH2O

Remember that @Fry178 doesnt like noise, doesnt care much about temp as long as its not throttling (<95C) and has a CPU that draws 35% less power than 3900X...

I couldnt find the specs of my 2xCorsair 140x140x25 but the rpm range is 500~2200. Of course I dont have them running at 2200 as above 1600~1700rpm there isnt much difference.

I have 2 custom curves.
1 up to 1200 for 24/7 every day usage and gaming.
1 up to ~1600 for testing.
And this is for now (winter with 21~23C ambient)

Remember also that anything larger can work as smaller if you want but not the other way arround...
 
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Until now i never had any problems running rads with (airflow) "case" fans, and that includes 125w amd/intel cpus,
that are definitely hotter than my ryzen.
only after arctic introduced the P series did i read up a bit more.
then again, when you have air, that is compressible (unlike water), i still question how much difference there is (outside max rpm).

the only reason for the Bionics would be the material (no dust collected)

for arctic there is one doing 2.75 mm, while still quiet, has pwm and PST port, to plug in another fan.
i would get those, unless you dont mind the noise, then the ML series

you also need to consider you dont have the cooler re-breathing its own hot air,
and with a decent fan pulling air thru the case you will see lower temps just because of that.
so even if the fans are the perfect ones for pressure/flow etc, it shouldnt be to bad.
 
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If you want a quiet case, have the radiator at the top. Hot air drives less pressure. Also, radiator interface works better when there is more temperature & air flux @ low pressure.

Although more work as in actual fitting (possibly) that would like be the easiest option, as a front fitting would also mean relocating the two front 200mm fans

Until now i never had any problems running rads with (airflow) "case" fans, and that includes 125w amd/intel cpus,
that are definitely hotter than my ryzen.
only after arctic introduced the P series did i read up a bit more.
then again, when you have air, that is compressible (unlike water), i still question how much difference there is (outside max rpm).

the only reason for the Bionics would be the material (no dust collected)

for arctic there is one doing 2.75 mm, while still quiet, has pwm and PST port, to plug in another fan.
i would get those, unless you dont mind the noise, then the ML series

you also need to consider you dont have the cooler re-breathing its own hot air,
and with a decent fan pulling air thru the case you will see lower temps just because of that.
so even if the fans are the perfect ones for pressure/flow etc, it shouldnt be to bad.

They also do a B-12-4 which has
Pressure: 2.74 mmH2O
Air flow rate: 150.3 m3/hr

NB-Eloop info.jpg


looking at that data the Artic would be a Lot quieter, 0.45 compared to 2.54
Air Flow: 67.56 CFM / 114.79 m3/h (@ 2.100 RPM)
Static Pressure: 2.75 mm H2O (@ 2.100 RPM)
Noise Level: 0.45 Sone (@ 2.100 RPM)


Also considering the Phobya radiator gasket 5mm for 120mm fans to help seal any potential gaps, they are cheap enough. They have two versions though, 5mm and 10mm - which?

Or even their Phobya Shroud & decoupling 120mm (7mm thickness) this is rubber, whereas the previous two are foam?
 
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and wouldnt help with case/gpu temps,
as your still blowing the hot air inside the case, instead of exhausting it (top mount).
and having those 2 big fans on front will help with airflow (rad fans need to "pull" less to get the air in).

(part why im thinking about getting a case with bottom&side mount for rad/fans, so i have intake fans on front&bottom,
cpu rad mounted to the side (next to front panel), and the top with exhaust fans, but no rad).
(JUST FYI. no you dont need to swap cases ;)
91eJrF4XsBL._AC_SL1500_.jpg



that hot air "rises" is correct, but anytime you have forced cooling (as in fans running and producing airflow),
its more or less irrelevant.
 
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I have 2 custom curves.
1 up to 1200 for 24/7 every day usage and gaming.
1 up to ~1600 for testing.
And this is for now (winter with 21~23C ambient)

What do you save them in and How, in SIV ?

(Gonna go with the artic I think in the end, 2.75 is pretty good and This site [aquatuning] only do the ML120 pro at £22)

and wouldnt help with case/gpu temps,
as your still blowing the hot air inside the case, instead of exhausting it (top mount).
and having those 2 big fans on front will help with airflow (rad fans need to "pull" less to get the air in).

(part why im thinking about getting a case with bottom&side mount for rad/fans, so i have case fans on bottom,
cpu rad mounted to the side (next to front panel, and the top with exhaust fans but no rad).
(JUST FYI. no you dont need to swap cases ;)
View attachment 141995


that hot air "rises" is correct, but anytime you have forced cooling (as in fans running producing airflow),
its more or less irrelevant.


I do now realise that although this is a very nice looking case, it isn't really optimised for watercooling.

Is that a liamlee case? Did look at those but at the time there wasn't many around, but that of course has now changed

Think I'm going to go with the artic fans, they are cheap enough for their stats.
 
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your board allows for manual profile?
set it to that and turn up the rpm to max, reduce until you can stand the fan noise.
set a curve and use the rpm number you found as max for up to 50/60 C, the have it run at max (possible)
speed the fan can do when the cpu reaches 70 C.
this way you can have it run quiet on low load, but still provide cooling when gaming etc,
e.g. when other noise might be louder (speakers etc).
 
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your board allows for manual profile?
set it to that and turn up the rpm to max, reduce until you can stand the fan noise.
set a curve and use the rpm number you found as max for up to 50/60 C, the have it run at max (possible)
speed the fan can do when the cpu reaches 70 C.
this way you can have it run quiet on low load, but still provide cooling when gaming etc,
e.g. when other noise might be louder (speakers etc).

Yeah it does in their SIV app.
Ill do that when i get the AIO (next week)

I considered a liam lee case but it now looks as if he now has a Lot more cases
 
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no, its a thermaltake, and one of the best midi cases for cooling.
one major reason outside fan/rad mount layout, is that Tt's are fully modular and allow for basically everything to be taken apart (no rivets),
on some cases even the front panel can be moved (side/top).
scroll to bottom part of page...


https://www.thermaltake.com/view-31-tempered-glass-rgb-edition.html

if my tax refund is bigger than expected :D :
https://www.thermaltake.com/level-20-xt.html
or this
i mean, its even stack-able to have more space :kookoo:
 
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What do you save them in and How, in SIV ?
(Gonna go with the artic I think in the end, 2.75 is pretty good and This site [aquatuning] only do the ML120 pro at £22)
Unfortunately in SIV you cant have multi curves for each fan.
I have corsair AIO and has its own software. The fans are connected (4-pinned) to the block/pump and the block to PSU directly with SATA connector. Then there is a cable from the block to usb2.0 board header. Then you can make as many curves you want from software and tie the curve to whatever temp you like (like siv). I have it on water temp (H110i temp).

1578810946239.png


I do now realise that although this is a very nice looking case, it isn't really optimised for watercooling.
Is that a liamlee case? Did look at those but at the time there wasn't many around, but that of course has now changed
I was looking for cases here in local market the other day, just for "fun", and really I liked a lot the Thermaltake Core X71 Tempered Glass Edition. You can fit a load of fans and rads in there... up to 15 fan 120mm or 13 fans 140mm...!!! Its not great looking but I'm not for the look anyway. Here now costs about 155€ but 6 months ago was like 130€.

Look at that thing... check the page all the way down

Core X71 Fan Supporting List

Fan Compatibility List​
120mm​
140mm​
200mm​
Front​
3​

3​

2​
Top​
3​

3​

2​
Rear​
1​

1​

Bottom​
2​

2​

Side (both)​
3x2​

2​


1578813345949.png
 
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yeah, monster case.



i dont really use multiple profiles anymore (after i sold my corsair 240), as my board supports manual fan curve in bios.
i most cases, i say, cpu temp should determine fan rpm.
this will also prevent higher fan speed, caused by gpu heat going thru cpu rad (unless LC as well).

and even with only one, a proper curve can allow for temporary (cpu temperature) spikes, without constantly revving fans up/down.
lower load will produce lower amount of heat, and you can scale rpm fan matching temps (and indirectly load).
you want the fans to top out on rpm, just before cpu will reach its max safe temp (for continuous use).

e.g. my rad and intake fans are set, so rpm is just below audible level up 35*C (which i dont pass surfing/streaming etc),
then i go up to audible level till about 45*C, and full speed when cpu passes 50*C (only happens under full load/gaming).
i never hear it, as any high load producing high temps will be gaming (and speakers/HP in use), or encoding etc,
which i usually do in the "background" while watching stuff or listening to music.
thats my rig/use, your mileage may vary..
 
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Unfortunately in SIV you cant have multi curves for each fan.

not each fan but you can have multiple overall profiles, which if you only change the radiator fans and keep the rest the same, that would effectively be the same thing surely?

. Here now costs about 155€ but 6 months ago was like 130€.

still is £130 here with the 31 being only £101 over here

I liked a lot the Thermaltake Core X71 Tempered Glass Edition

That's not a case!
It's a home!

yes i know that I'm going to have to completely redo all the fan curves that I have set in SIV, that can be done after it is installed

so the rubber gaskets a better idea than the foam ones?

@Zach_01 yeah I have the Corsair software for my Corsair Dark Core RGB SE

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just saw De8aur video from CES - EK are doing a new AIO D-120/240/360 for 85/105/125 euros plus tax

 
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no need for any gasket stuff, as your fans will be louder than any vibration you will "hear"
because of the fans mounted to the rad/case.
even on the last 4 rigs i did with throttled fans (at low load).

EK is a good brand, but they cant do magic. anytime they will be noticeable better
(like the predator series), your looking at about twice the cost.
and enough ppl out there with stuff not matching price (as in leaks, because of seals/broken pump and block tops),
so far from a brand where i would buy stuff "unseen".
 
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no need for any gasket stuff, as your fans will be louder than any vibration you will "hear"
because of the fans mounted to the rad/case.
even on the last 4 rigs i did with throttled fans (at low load).

EK is a good brand, but they cant do magic. anytime they will be noticeable better
(like the predator series), your looking at about twice the cost.
and enough ppl out there with stuff not matching price (as in leaks, because of seals/broken pump and block tops),
so far from a brand where i would buy stuff "unseen".


Not even the Phobya radiator gasket 5mm for 120mm fans (foam, compresses to less than 2mm) ?
They say, no idea how true it is but seems to makes sense, that is helps seal the fan with the radiator, eliminating leaks ?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Erm a low of 21c WTF?
Don't ask me how as I just happened to look at it just now

temps new.jpg
 
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A proper made rad (straight frame) and a proper fan frame wont have any noticeable gap.
I had used it in the past so when fans run on low rpm the motor vibration would transfer thru the rad to the case and resonate (thin case and/or alu instead of steel), less for sealing.
But after getting decent and more sturdy cases in the past 5y, that wasnt needed anymore.
Anf if, a silicone based would be best (seals AND reduces transfer to rad).

I guarantee you have multiple times more impact on flow/temps by removing any filter/mesh/case grill that would be before/between/after rad/fan combo.
Main reason i brought a dremel clone
 
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A proper made rad (straight frame) and a proper fan frame wont have any noticeable gap.
I had used it in the past so when fans run on low rpm the motor vibration would transfer thru the rad to the case and resonate (thin case and/or alu instead of steel), less for sealing.
But after getting decent and more sturdy cases in the past 5y, that wasnt needed anymore.
Anf if, a silicone based would be best (seals AND reduces transfer to rad).

I guarantee you have multiple times more impact on flow/temps by removing any filter/mesh/case grill that would be before/between/after rad/fan combo.
Main reason i brought a dremel clone

One I'm seeing now Is silicone (quite cheap as well, hence thinking of getting 3)

The Only thing After the rad will be the same mesh as is on the front (see previous pics for that, or ill repost when back on pc (doing a system clone ATM so i can have a portable windows that is bootable from the USB drive!)

You say you removed any mesh/case/filter yet then advised Not to cut out the middle of that fan/rad shelf ???

this is the size of the mesh

rad hole 5.jpgrad hole 7.jpg
 
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Sorry, no.
No need for gaskets, i would rather have one between rad/fan and where its mounted to the case, this way preventing pump vibrations to be transfered.

On any exhausting fan opening i always remove the magnetic mesh,
as well as any mesh/grill that belongs to the case.
If it extends till the frame/fan mount area, just leave 1cm or so all around.

E.g. For a 120 mm fan opening, cut away 100 to 110 mm of the "center" area.
Unless of course you have a grill with holes bigger than a finger :rolleyes:
 

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System Name Ryzen
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As this seems like a very well informed and up-to-date thread, I was wondering if someone could perhaps summarize the best way to get the most out of a Ryzen 3000 + x570 build without an all core OC (as I understand an all-core OC only brings advantages in case your most important workload is a constant all-core-load, like rendering, at the cost of a lot more power usage).

I know tweaking the memory is probably one of the more important things to do (already started on that), but besides that things become less clear to me.

I've read many things, like PBO often decreasing performance, which then might be (or get) solved by AGESA 1.0.0.4 or higher (but didn't find confirmation on that).
I've also read that sometimes lowering the voltage a little can help a bit (I suppose this is what you do to "tweak" EDC?)

But is there an up-to-date understandable guide for this perhaps? Or does it require reading all 29 pages here? :p

Fyi, I have:
MSI MEG Unify X570
AMD X3900
2x 16GB PC3600 (Hynix D-die)
 
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Mouse Corsair Dark Core SE & Logitech G815 Keyboard
Keyboard Logitech G815
Software wIn 10 Pro possibly Manjaro at some point
As this seems like a very well informed and up-to-date thread, I was wondering if someone could perhaps summarize the best way to get the most out of a Ryzen 3000 + x570 build without an all core OC (as I understand an all-core OC only brings advantages in case your most important workload is a constant all-core-load, like rendering, at the cost of a lot more power usage).

I know tweaking the memory is probably one of the more important things to do (already started on that), but besides that things become less clear to me.

I've read many things, like PBO often decreasing performance, which then might be (or get) solved by AGESA 1.0.0.4 or higher (but didn't find confirmation on that).
I've also read that sometimes lowering the voltage a little can help a bit (I suppose this is what you do to "tweak" EDC?)

But is there an up-to-date understandable guide for this perhaps? Or does it require reading all 29 pages here? :p

Fyi, I have:
MSI MEG Unify X570
AMD X3900
2x 16GB PC3600 (Hynix D-die)

Just so you know, in your profile there is a section where you can complete your own rigs specs, saves you typing it all out each time.

And @Zach_01 @tabascosauz and @Fry178 have all been helping me in here a fair bit
 

tabascosauz

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As this seems like a very well informed and up-to-date thread, I was wondering if someone could perhaps summarize the best way to get the most out of a Ryzen 3000 + x570 build without an all core OC (as I understand an all-core OC only brings advantages in case your most important workload is a constant all-core-load, like rendering, at the cost of a lot more power usage).

I know tweaking the memory is probably one of the more important things to do (already started on that), but besides that things become less clear to me.

I've read many things, like PBO often decreasing performance, which then might be (or get) solved by AGESA 1.0.0.4 or higher (but didn't find confirmation on that).
I've also read that sometimes lowering the voltage a little can help a bit (I suppose this is what you do to "tweak" EDC?)

But is there an up-to-date understandable guide for this perhaps? Or does it require reading all 29 pages here? :p

Fyi, I have:
MSI MEG Unify X570
AMD X3900
2x 16GB PC3600 (Hynix D-die)

Welcome to TPU

Nice to see another user with Hynix DJR. CAS 16 3600 is a good place to be with DJR if you want the performance without sinking endless hours into overclocking beyond 3600. Should be doable with your average D-die kit at the default XMP voltage, 1.35v. On the tRCD and tRP, DJR and CJR will be looser than B-die, and that's fine. Just go off what Ryzen DRAM calculator tells you, fill in your hardware details ("Ryzen 2 gen", CJR, V1, whatever rank your DIMMs are, 3600, BCLK 100, 2 DIMMs, X570) and parrot into your BIOS what the calculator tells you. See where that gets you, consistency on DJR seems pretty decent so far.

You're just going to have to figure out what PBO settings work for you. Everyone's case is different. As long as you have 1.0.0.4, latest chipset drivers, and whatever you prefer between 1usmus and Ryzen Balanced, the PBO menu is for you to experiment with.

Undervolting too, everyone's chip is different. Your board may be overvolting your chip to the moon, or your chip might already be in its happy place. You just have to see for yourself. Take it slow, in the smallest voltage adjustment increments possible, and use Dynamic Voltage or Voltage Offset (whatever it's called) adjustments instead of fixed "dumb" voltage. EDC adjustment and undervolting should be mutually exclusive, though. But YMMV

Running fixed freq ("all-core overclock") is useful for testing in the lower speeds, 3.6-4.2GHz, to find out the minimum voltage limits of your chip. Any higher than 4.2GHz, with voltage at or around 1.3V or higher, will be a one-way trip to the silicon afterlife. But, evidently, there are plenty of owners on Reddit and elsewhere who want that, so YMMV.
 
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@Mastakilla
use the latets bios/drivers and windows build (1909) and amd ryzen plan,
and auto settings for everything except ram. use the xmp/amp profile they come with first (make sure to manually set dram V to 1.35),
and verify its stable with memtest.

i would run 10 for a while before messing with stuff, just so you can make sure everything is fine,
and you dont have things making the rug unstable that arent related to lets say settings/tweaks etc.

proper cooling is an important part, so i recommend at least a 240/280 AIO,
unless you have extreme amount of airflow (case) and cpu cooler that sits close to exhaust fans
that would dump the heat right away.
 
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System Name Ryzen
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Video Card(s) XFX Radeon HD 4350 512MB (temp)
Storage Corsair Force MP510 960GB
Display(s) Dell Ultrasharp U2410
Case Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C
Power Supply Fractal Design ION+ 760W Platinum
Thanks all for the useful feedback!

That it is different for everyone, might explain that it is so hard to find a decent / up-to-date guide on this. I was hoping that, as the BIOS became more stable, things might have become more consistent, but I guess not (yet)... I guess I'll need to play around a bit...

RAM is already tweaked a bit:
Got it stable @ 1800 (16-19-19-32) and nearly stable @ 1867 (16-19-19-32), both at 1.35v. I'll probably go with the first or even a bit less tight to ensure stability.

I'm not using it yet as my daily system, as I don't have the final GPU yet (passive AMD Radeon HD4350 atm :p). Also, when replacing the GPU with something decent, I'll probably add a lot more heat to the case and I'm not sure how Hynix D-die responds to that...

I also don't have an AIO (Noctua NH-D15) or a very airflow minded case either (Fractal Design Define R6), but the latest Prime95 stays reasonable @ 86°C max. I've read that AIOs don't do much better and I also don't really trust them to be much more silent with the pump noise (I used to have a custom loop 10+ years ago on my A64 3200+ using a LL D5 pump @ setting 2 and even then the pump noise annoyed me ;) )
 
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As this seems like a very well informed and up-to-date thread, I was wondering if someone could perhaps summarize the best way to get the most out of a Ryzen 3000 + x570 build without an all core OC (as I understand an all-core OC only brings advantages in case your most important workload is a constant all-core-load, like rendering, at the cost of a lot more power usage).

I know tweaking the memory is probably one of the more important things to do (already started on that), but besides that things become less clear to me.

I've read many things, like PBO often decreasing performance, which then might be (or get) solved by AGESA 1.0.0.4 or higher (but didn't find confirmation on that).
I've also read that sometimes lowering the voltage a little can help a bit (I suppose this is what you do to "tweak" EDC?)

But is there an up-to-date understandable guide for this perhaps? Or does it require reading all 29 pages here? :p

Fyi, I have:
MSI MEG Unify X570
AMD X3900
2x 16GB PC3600 (Hynix D-die)
I'm no ZEN expert but just a user that has exprerimented with my humble R5 3600. I thought about making a thread with not exactly a guide but more like all info about what I learned after almost 5 months with the system but its not easy to gather and write down every info about it.

You have one of the greatest ZEN2 CPUs. I'm also, like most users here, against static OC of ZEN2 simply because AMD made these chips advanced enough to give the most performance out of the box and for all load situations and scenarios. A lot of users have not understand yet the key operating and performance aspects or distinctiveness of ZEN2 and trying to compare it with previous gens or Intel rivals. Big mistake...
Given all that, the headroom for improving what you get out of the box is in most cases marginal. But still there is headroom left, more like a fine-tune if you want to call it that.
One of the major key fact and aspect of these CPUs to maximize performance, is the operating temperature. While the max allowed (within specs) operating temp is <95C (starts to throttle rated clocks) users can keep gaining some more boost by cooling them down to like 50C for max load. This temp of course is not achievable with conventional means, so every user must find satisfaction to a midle point. Where the cost of cooling is justified by what they gain. Not every user's mindset has the same sweetspot for this. Let alone its not known to every user... and if we throw into the equation the (acceptable to any user) noise levels, things get more complicated.
At ~94C the CPU will have X all core boost. At 50C all core load the CPU will increase clock and voltage about maybe 200MHz. Lets say 4.4MHz/1C reduction. If your CPU operates at 85C and you manage to cool it to 70C you will gain like 65MHz all core boost without doing anything else. There are more tweaks to be done to increase clock further, like undervoltage(not always successful) and/or EDC reduction, but temp is key to this (for EDC) also.

Before start thinking about increasing cooling there are other things to be done.
1. Letest AGESA (BIOS/UEFI version) for your board.
2. Win10 v1909
3. Latest chipset drivers (November) directly from AMD (not MSI).
...optional:
4. 1usmus's custom PowerPlan v1.1 (for win v1909) for Ryzen (ZEN2) CPUs.

First read this:

Then this:

And you may want to keep reading this thread too...
 
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