BSoD After Undervolting

[TomerDe]

So i've been using ThrottleStop on my Nitro 5 (i5-9300h) and happily reduced the temps from 90C to around 75C.
I've read that you can go -250mv core and around -130mv cache, I tried some settings, got a BSoD after a while,
so i increased the voltage by a bit, crashed again (but it ran stable for at least 4 days of heavy usage)
and lastly I crashed again being around -228mv core and -128mv cache. It ran stable for like 2 weeks, I was sure this is stable. Pretty bummed that it crashed.
I got the "Store Data Structure Corruption" BSoD. As far as I know it is possible to be caused by undervolting, or even a ram issue.
Everything is new(less than 1 month old), and runs solid without any issues. I didn't crash while on stock settings so I don't think my ram is faulty.
Is there any way to get the source of the BSoD? Any ideas on what i can change to still maintain a big temp drop and performance improvement without getting a BSoD every week?
I've also been searching for ThrottleStop's log files but can't find it anywhere! It says its saving it under C:// but nothing is found.
Thanks a lot everyone!

 

[unclewebb]

If you see a BSOD, when undervolting, it is usually because of the voltage. It is usually the cache offset that causes the problem. Step back to -100 mV. Use that setting for a week and see how it goes. Maybe try -110 mV the week after that. Also back the core off to -200 mV. Stop trying to find the absolute bare minimum for voltage. Intel gives all of their CPUs some extra voltage to ensure stability. You should be doing the same. 10 mV or 20 mV from bare minimum is OK. 1 mV from bare minimum is cutting it too close.

The ThrottleStop log files are usually in the ThrottleStop / Logs folder. If you moved your ThrottleStop folder or something else happened, they could be anywhere. Look in the Options window. You can select there what folder you want the log files to go to.

 

[TomerDe]

If you see a BSOD, when undervolting, it is usually because of the voltage. It is usually the cache offset that causes the problem. Step back to -100 mV. Use that setting for a week and see how it goes. Maybe try -110 mV the week after that. Also back the core off to -200 mV. Stop trying to find the absolute bare minimum for voltage. Intel gives all of their CPUs some extra voltage to ensure stability. You should be doing the same. 10 mV or 20 mV from bare minimum is OK. 1 mV from bare minimum is cutting it too close.

The ThrottleStop log files are usually in the ThrottleStop / Logs folder. If you moved your ThrottleStop folder or something else happened, they could be anywhere. Look in the Options window. You can select there what folder you want the log files to go to.

Thanks a lot for the comment. I really hope the BSOD is undervolt result and not faulty RAM, i'm gonna try what you said and see what's going on.
It was a big bummer because it ran very good for 2 weeks. I'll update next week. Thanks again!
I've seen some of your comments around here explaining to change custom turbo limits and such. Right now everything is stock besides cache is -100mv and core -200mv.
What should i change in settings/TPL alongside the lower cache/core voltages for the i5-9300h to get the better results?
I've downloaded Cinebench and i'll post my score soon if it makes any difference.

 

[unclewebb]

I like running Cinebench R20 for testing purposes. Open Limit Reasons. Are you seeing anything under the CORE column light up in red in Limit Reasons while Cinebench is running? If you see PL1 or PL2, those are the long and short turbo power limits. If you see the CPU throttling, try increasing those power limits in the ThrottleStop TPL window. Make sure Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits is checked in the FIVR window. The 6 core CPUs need way more than 45W to run Cinebench at full speed. A 4 core CPU might only need a small bump to keep running at full speed.

Turn on the Log File option in ThrottleStop when testing or gaming. This will provide an accurate look at your CPU's performance when it is loaded. It looks like your logs are on your D: drive in the Logs folder. Attach your log file to your next post if you want me to have a look at it.

 

[Deleted member 193596]

undervolting cache does absolutely nothing but corrupting data. (it's not like that your cache pulls more than a watt)

running memtest (just the normal desktop version is enough) to see if your cache is stable or not since you can see tons of memory errors within a few minutes.

 

[TomerDe]

I like running Cinebench R20 for testing purposes. Open Limit Reasons. Are you seeing anything under the CORE column light up in red in Limit Reasons while Cinebench is running? If you see PL1 or PL2, those are the long and short turbo power limits. If you see the CPU throttling, try increasing those power limits in the ThrottleStop TPL window. Make sure Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits is checked in the FIVR window. The 6 core CPUs need way more than 45W to run Cinebench at full speed. A 4 core CPU might only need a small bump to keep running at full speed.

Turn on the Log File option in ThrottleStop when testing or gaming. This will provide an accurate look at your CPU's performance when it is loaded. It looks like your logs are on your D: drive in the Logs folder. Attach your log file to your next post if you want me to have a look at it.

During Cinebench test i've gotten 1789 points, and PL1 and EDP OTHER turned red. ThrottleStop also wrote "POWER" in red between the limits and prochot (under the CPU temps columns), does it means the cpu throttled?
I've checked the box in the FIVR tab. From this screenshot, how much points should i increase it to? I will do some gaming test now and post my logs in a new reply.
Thanks again!

If you see a BSOD, when undervolting, it is usually because of the voltage. It is usually the cache offset that causes the problem. Step back to -100 mV. Use that setting for a week and see how it goes. Maybe try -110 mV the week after that. Also back the core off to -200 mV. Stop trying to find the absolute bare minimum for voltage. Intel gives all of their CPUs some extra voltage to ensure stability. You should be doing the same. 10 mV or 20 mV from bare minimum is OK. 1 mV from bare minimum is cutting it too close.

The ThrottleStop log files are usually in the ThrottleStop / Logs folder. If you moved your ThrottleStop folder or something else happened, they could be anywhere. Look in the Options window. You can select there what folder you want the log files to go to.

Here are the logs, from playing Horizon Zero Dawn & running a Cinebench test.

 

[unclewebb]

@TomerDe - The log file shows PL1 and PL2 throttling. You have the long term turbo power limit set to 45W and the short term limit set to 56W. Increase both of these limits to 60W and see if the throttling goes away. Some laptops are hard locked internally to 45W long term so your power limit requests that you set in ThrottleStop might be ignored.

Set your power limits higher and run another Cinebench test. Watch for PL1 or PL2 turning red in Limit Reasons. If you increase the power limits and you continue to see PL1 throttling and power consumption is only 45W, that means your laptop is probably locked. Make sure you have checked the FIVR - Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits option.

Laptops with a 9300H can score over 2000 points in Cinebench if they are not power limit or thermal throttling.

Deadlime`s Cinebench - R20 score: 2034 cb with a Core i5 9300H

The Core i5 9300H @ 3990MHzscores getScoreFormatted in the Cinebench - R20 benchmark. Deadlimeranks #164 worldwide and #6 in the hardware class. Find out more at HWBOT.

hwbot.org

undervolting cache does absolutely nothing but corrupting data.

It is very rare to find a laptop with voltage control options in the BIOS. Most users need to use software to control their CPU voltage.

If you want to undervolt your Intel mobile CPU, you need to undervolt both the CPU core and CPU cache. That is how Intel mobile CPUs work. You do not have the option to only undervolt the CPU core. The CPU will ignore your undervolt request unless the cache is also undervolted.

Saying that undervolting the cache does absolutely nothing is wrong. Undervolting the cache allows one to also undervolt the core. Combined, you will end up with a cooler laptop or a faster laptop, sometimes both. As long as you do not undervolt the core or cache too much, your computer will still be 100% stable.

 

[TomerDe]

@TomerDe - The log file shows PL1 and PL2 throttling. You have the long term turbo power limit set to 45W and the short term limit set to 56W. Increase both of these limits to 60W and see if the throttling goes away. Some laptops are hard locked internally to 45W long term so your power limit requests that you set in ThrottleStop might be ignored.

Set your power limits higher and run another Cinebench test. Watch for PL1 or PL2 turning red in Limit Reasons. If you increase the power limits and you continue to see PL1 throttling and power consumption is only 45W, that means your laptop is probably locked. Make sure you have checked the FIVR - Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits option.

Laptops with a 9300H can score over 2000 points in Cinebench if they are not power limit or thermal throttling.

Deadlime`s Cinebench - R20 score: 2034 cb with a Core i5 9300H

The Core i5 9300H @ 3990MHzscores getScoreFormatted in the Cinebench - R20 benchmark. Deadlimeranks #164 worldwide and #6 in the hardware class. Find out more at HWBOT.

hwbot.org

It is very rare to find a laptop with voltage control options in the BIOS. Most users need to use software to control their CPU voltage.

If you want to undervolt your Intel mobile CPU, you need to undervolt both the CPU core and CPU cache. That is how Intel mobile CPUs work. You do not have the option to only undervolt the CPU core. The CPU will ignore your undervolt request unless the cache is also undervolted.

Saying that undervolting the cache does absolutely nothing is wrong. Undervolting the cache allows one to also undervolt the core. Combined, you will end up with a cooler laptop or a faster laptop, sometimes both. As long as you do not undervolt the core or cache too much, your computer will still be 100% stable.

Scored 2000!

Though I still throttled on PL1 @ 45W. Seems like it's hard locked.
But... i've ran a test on someones preset from Acer Community that uses -135.6 on both core and cache, and also -70 for the system agent and intel gpu,
It didn't show any limit when i tested, but the score was only around 1750.. So i don't know ;-;
Thanks a lot for the help! I will be trying now -125 cache and -200 core, because i did thermal throttle on -100cache. Hopefully it would be stable, otherwise i'll go down to -115.
Thanks again pal, I really appreciate the help. Is there anything else you'd recommend adjusting, or I'm good to go? Thanks again!!!

 

[Deleted member 193596]

@TomerDe - The log file shows PL1 and PL2 throttling. You have the long term turbo power limit set to 45W and the short term limit set to 56W. Increase both of these limits to 60W and see if the throttling goes away. Some laptops are hard locked internally to 45W long term so your power limit requests that you set in ThrottleStop might be ignored.

Set your power limits higher and run another Cinebench test. Watch for PL1 or PL2 turning red in Limit Reasons. If you increase the power limits and you continue to see PL1 throttling and power consumption is only 45W, that means your laptop is probably locked. Make sure you have checked the FIVR - Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits option.

Laptops with a 9300H can score over 2000 points in Cinebench if they are not power limit or thermal throttling.

Deadlime`s Cinebench - R20 score: 2034 cb with a Core i5 9300H

The Core i5 9300H @ 3990MHzscores getScoreFormatted in the Cinebench - R20 benchmark. Deadlimeranks #164 worldwide and #6 in the hardware class. Find out more at HWBOT.

hwbot.org

It is very rare to find a laptop with voltage control options in the BIOS. Most users need to use software to control their CPU voltage.

If you want to undervolt your Intel mobile CPU, you need to undervolt both the CPU core and CPU cache. That is how Intel mobile CPUs work. You do not have the option to only undervolt the CPU core. The CPU will ignore your undervolt request unless the cache is also undervolted.

Saying that undervolting the cache does absolutely nothing is wrong. Undervolting the cache allows one to also undervolt the core. Combined, you will end up with a cooler laptop or a faster laptop, sometimes both. As long as you do not undervolt the core or cache too much, your computer will still be 100% stable.

well.. if it's bound to VCore then it's absolutely useless.

if a Laptop can not run without throttling into oblivion at stock speeds,vcore and powerlimit... there is only one solution.
return it.

 

[TomerDe]

well.. if it's bound to VCore then it's absolutely useless.

if a Laptop can not run without throttling into oblivion at stock speeds,vcore and powerlimit... there is only one solution.
return it.

It's a bit too late to return it, and for the price I picked it up i don't think i'll find anything better. I got it for 568$ on Amazon. New.
And the performance is outstanding at this price point, I can play most games on high/ultra, edit flawlessly on Premiere & After Effects.
On stock the CPU hits 90 and gets power & thermal throttled, but after undervolting it I managed to hit 75~ and it only throttles on the PL thing.
Next time i'll go shopping laptops i'll just probably pick higher tier one with at least RTX GPU, but thats a story for at least 3 years from now, still got my desktop for the heavy work, this is just to work on the go

 

[xman2007]

well.. if it's bound to VCore then it's absolutely useless.

if a Laptop can not run without throttling into oblivion at stock speeds,vcore and powerlimit... there is only one solution.
return it.

You must be new to Intel mobile CPU's bless you

 

[Deleted member 193596]

You must be new to Intel mobile CPU's bless you

ever heard of anything above "the lowest end"?

XMG puts a Desktop! 10900k inside their laptops and they run cooler than his undervolted little 45w max TDP quad core.

 

[xman2007]

ever heard of anything above "the lowest end"?

XMG puts a Desktop! 10900k inside their laptops and they run cooler than his undervolted little 45w max TDP quad core.

Yes and that's a desktop replacement that's about 2 inches thick and likely sounds like a jet engine at load to keep it cool, not an ultrathin notebook, most notebooks throttle and can't maintain full power or turbo boost limits due to their size and imposed restrictions either by Intel or the manufacturer, this is not an isolated case either heck just searching tpu you'll find countless other similar issues and they are not all faulty and need rma as you stated

 

[Assimilator]

Yes and that's a desktop replacement that's about 2 inches thick and likely sounds like a jet engine at load to keep it cool, not an ultrathin notebook, most notebooks throttle and can't maintain full power or turbo boost limits due to their size and imposed restrictions either by Intel or the manufacturer, this is not an isolated case either heck just searching tpu you'll find countless other similar issues and they are not all faulty and need rma as you stated

Please explain how Intel is to blame for manufacturers that choose to cram CPUs into laptop chassis that cannot handle the heat output.

 

[xman2007]

Please explain how Intel is to blame for manufacturers that choose to cram CPUs into laptop chassis that cannot handle the heat output.

Because even with adequate cooling they can't maintain advertised clocks or turbo boost for extended period of time due to the imposed power limits, this is down to Intel also, have you been living under a rock

 

[Joel Santos]

intel is still in 14nm, their cpu's are already hot in a desktop, imagine in a laptop, most consumers don't even know about temperatures and just play for years and years at 90+ c , so this is what we get

 

[Assimilator]

Because even with adequate cooling they can't maintain advertised clocks or turbo boost for extended period of time due to the imposed power limits, this is down to Intel also, have you been living under a rock

Yes, Intel's marketing around its CPU clock speeds is shady, but that doesn't mean that laptop manufacturers should follow its lead. In fact they are worse - Intel's quoted CPU clocks can be achieved in certain circumstances, but are never possible in the thermally constrained scenarios that laptop manufacturers impose on those CPUs.

I fervently hope that there will be a class action lawsuit against a laptop manufacturer for doing this, with the result that they will be forced to market the clock speeds that their thermally-constrained solutions can sustain. Until then, the only thing consumers can do is be careful, using reviews to avoid the worst throttling offenders.

 

[TomerDe]

@TomerDe - The log file shows PL1 and PL2 throttling. You have the long term turbo power limit set to 45W and the short term limit set to 56W. Increase both of these limits to 60W and see if the throttling goes away. Some laptops are hard locked internally to 45W long term so your power limit requests that you set in ThrottleStop might be ignored.

Set your power limits higher and run another Cinebench test. Watch for PL1 or PL2 turning red in Limit Reasons. If you increase the power limits and you continue to see PL1 throttling and power consumption is only 45W, that means your laptop is probably locked. Make sure you have checked the FIVR - Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits option.

Laptops with a 9300H can score over 2000 points in Cinebench if they are not power limit or thermal throttling.

Deadlime`s Cinebench - R20 score: 2034 cb with a Core i5 9300H

The Core i5 9300H @ 3990MHzscores getScoreFormatted in the Cinebench - R20 benchmark. Deadlimeranks #164 worldwide and #6 in the hardware class. Find out more at HWBOT.

hwbot.org

It is very rare to find a laptop with voltage control options in the BIOS. Most users need to use software to control their CPU voltage.

If you want to undervolt your Intel mobile CPU, you need to undervolt both the CPU core and CPU cache. That is how Intel mobile CPUs work. You do not have the option to only undervolt the CPU core. The CPU will ignore your undervolt request unless the cache is also undervolted.

Saying that undervolting the cache does absolutely nothing is wrong. Undervolting the cache allows one to also undervolt the core. Combined, you will end up with a cooler laptop or a faster laptop, sometimes both. As long as you do not undervolt the core or cache too much, your computer will still be 100% stable.

Sorry if i bother you I just think you missed my message.
According to the screenshots i posted above, would you suggest changing anything else, or i'm good to go?

@TomerDe - The log file shows PL1 and PL2 throttling. You have the long term turbo power limit set to 45W and the short term limit set to 56W. Increase both of these limits to 60W and see if the throttling goes away. Some laptops are hard locked internally to 45W long term so your power limit requests that you set in ThrottleStop might be ignored.

Set your power limits higher and run another Cinebench test. Watch for PL1 or PL2 turning red in Limit Reasons. If you increase the power limits and you continue to see PL1 throttling and power consumption is only 45W, that means your laptop is probably locked. Make sure you have checked the FIVR - Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits option.

Laptops with a 9300H can score over 2000 points in Cinebench if they are not power limit or thermal throttling.

Deadlime`s Cinebench - R20 score: 2034 cb with a Core i5 9300H

The Core i5 9300H @ 3990MHzscores getScoreFormatted in the Cinebench - R20 benchmark. Deadlimeranks #164 worldwide and #6 in the hardware class. Find out more at HWBOT.

hwbot.org

It is very rare to find a laptop with voltage control options in the BIOS. Most users need to use software to control their CPU voltage.

If you want to undervolt your Intel mobile CPU, you need to undervolt both the CPU core and CPU cache. That is how Intel mobile CPUs work. You do not have the option to only undervolt the CPU core. The CPU will ignore your undervolt request unless the cache is also undervolted.

Saying that undervolting the cache does absolutely nothing is wrong. Undervolting the cache allows one to also undervolt the core. Combined, you will end up with a cooler laptop or a faster laptop, sometimes both. As long as you do not undervolt the core or cache too much, your computer will still be 100% stable.

EDIT: So i've noticed that if i lower the Turbo Ratio Limits in FIVR to 35, I score around 1850 but i do not get power throttled at all.
If i push them to 41, i score over 2000 but i do get PL1 and EDP OTHER.
The difference between temps is going from max 75 to max 82 but its on average below 80. (spikes to 80 for a second and goes back down)
The thing is, is it worth to lose those 150 points, get lower temps, NOT get power throttled, or is it better to increase the temps, score 2000 and get power throttled?
I am a bit confused to why I score lower and don't get throttled, and score higher and do get power throttled. Also i've noticed that on ThrottleStop 8.70 i get better performance.

Sorry for writing so much and bothering you again..!
Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. Never seen a program developer who is so active and helpful around his community and even many years after the first release.

 

[unclewebb]

i've noticed that on ThrottleStop 8.70 i get better performance.

If you set the power limits and turbo ratios and everything else the same, there should be no difference in performance between TS 8.70 and TS 9.2. What benchmark did you run and what sort of difference were you seeing? The TS Bench is totally different between those two versions so do not jump to any conclusions based on TS Bench scores.

When I saw that you reached 2000 points in Cinebench R20, I figured that you did not need my help anymore. That score is good for third place at HWBot.

Cinebench - R20 overclocking records @ HWBOT

Overclocking records

hwbot.org

I would leave the turbo ratios at their default settings.
(41, 41, 40, 40)

You can set them all to 41 but the CPU will ignore that request and use the default values instead.

i do get PL1 and EDP OTHER

If Limit Reasons shows PL1 throttling under the CORE and your CPU is not thermal throttling, try increasing your power limits some more. Instead of 60, try 65 or 70. Maybe that will be good for a few more Cinebench points.

I score lower and don't get throttled

If you lowered the turbo ratios then you are being throttled. The only difference is you are throttling your CPU. You are asking your CPU to run slower instead of the power limits being triggered and the CPU forcing the CPU to run slower.

is it better to increase the temps, score 2000 and get power throttled?

It is better to increase the power limits, increase the temps, not get power limit throttled and score over 2000 in Cinebench. Maybe even make it to the top of the HWBot list.

2000 is a great Cinebench score for your CPU. I still enjoy helping others get the most out of their computers. That is why I continue to work on ThrottleStop.

Edit - If you run Cinebench at a higher Windows priority, that can be good for a few more points too.

 

[TomerDe]

If you set the power limits and turbo ratios and everything else the same, there should be no difference in performance between TS 8.70 and TS 9.2. What benchmark did you run and what sort of difference were you seeing? The TS Bench is totally different between those two versions so do not jump to any conclusions based on TS Bench scores.

When I saw that you reached 2000 points in Cinebench R20, I figured that you did not need my help anymore. That score is good for third place at HWBot.

Cinebench - R20 overclocking records @ HWBOT

Overclocking records

hwbot.org

I would leave the turbo ratios at their default settings.
(41, 41, 40, 40)

You can set them all to 41 but the CPU will ignore that request and use the default values instead.


If Limit Reasons shows PL1 throttling under the CORE and your CPU is not thermal throttling, try increasing your power limits some more. Instead of 60, try 65 or 70. Maybe that will be good for a few more Cinebench points.


If you lowered the turbo ratios then you are being throttled. The only difference is you are throttling your CPU. You are asking your CPU to run slower instead of the power limits being triggered and the CPU forcing the CPU to run slower.


It is better to increase the power limits, increase the temps, not get power limit throttled and score over 2000 in Cinebench. Maybe even make it to the top of the HWBot list.

2000 is a great Cinebench score for your CPU. I still enjoy helping others get the most out of their computers. That is why I continue to work on ThrottleStop.

Edit - If you run Cinebench at a higher Windows priority, that can be good for a few more points too.

I understand. Thank you for a great explanation and your great help. I really appropriate it!