How to Protect the system against electrical fluctuations?

[Deleted member 193596]

i don't understand why "First World" countries have these massive problems with power.

there was not a single power cut in my whole life nor my parents whole existence.
never any "voltage fluctuations" or anything else.
230V 16A 24/7 since... ever.

PS:
i had to google to understand what a "UPS" even is..

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

i don't understand why "First World" countries have these massive problems with power.

there was not a single power cut in my whole life nor my parents whole existence.
never any "voltage fluctuations" or anything else.
230V 16A 24/7 since... ever.

I think I have had my pc folding or crunching for ten years ups and trouble free

 

[8BitZ80]

I really wish folks would take the time to actually learn what an UPS does. Especially before telling others what they need or don't need.

Once again, a good UPS with AVR is NOT just a battery backup during power outages. And the batteries in a good UPS are NOT just for backup power. Contrary to what some seem to believe, and want others to believe too, sags and brownouts are much more common than many think - even in countries with modern power grids like the UK and other places that had to totally rebuild their infrastructures after the war.

Even within the home, sags occur. For example, when big wattage items, like ovens, electric clothes dryers, AC units, even hair dryers, dips and sags may occur. A good UPS will use its batteries to boost the voltage back up to normal levels.

My home has a very old and clunky ducted air conditioning system that would cause the ceiling lights to dip whenever the compressor switches on. I suspect that the soft starter system is faulty and the compressor kicks in at full power, so it takes a split second for the mains supply to adjust. Never had any computer issues when that happened though and I've never had a UPS.

 

[Bill_Bright]

A PSU has big caps in it for just that ripple suppression and a small degree of brown out survival and a good one all the protective circuitry you need upto a lightning strike.
Well I must be lucky these last many years, out.

Ripple suppression? This has absolutely nothing to do with ripple suppression. It is clear you really don't know what you are talking about! Ripple suppression is an issue even if your power grid is the most stable, most accurate, most regulated possible. Please stop talking about something you clearly know nothing about.

i don't understand why "First World" countries have these massive problems with power.

It is rather ironic, huh? But actually, it makes sense once you think about it.

In the US, the power grid was established almost 100 years ago, or even more than 100 years ago! But all across Europe and much of Asia and in developing countries, entire grids are relatively new and thus, much more stable. For example, I live in the "old town" section of my town and it dates back to the mid 1800s. All my utilities are "above ground". My power is distributed on polls, not buried.

All across Europe and other parts of the world, much of the grids were destroyed by massive bombings and other war events.

It should be noted at a good UPS with AVR is like insurance. You hope you never need it. But when tragedy strikes, you are glad you had it.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Ripple suppression? This has absolutely nothing to do with ripple suppression. It is clear you really don't know what you are talking about! Ripple suppression is an issue even if your power grid is the most stable, most accurate, most regulated possible. Please stop talking about something you clearly know nothing about.
It is rather ironic, huh? But actually, it makes sense once you think about it.

In the US, the power grid was established almost 100 years ago, or even more than 100 years ago! But all across Europe and much of Asia and in developing countries, entire grids are relatively new and thus, much more stable. For example, I live in the "old town" section of my town and it dates back to the mid 1800s. All my utilities are "above ground". My power is distributed on polls, not buried.

All across Europe and other parts of the world, much of the grids were destroyed by massive bombings and other war events.

It should be noted at a good UPS with AVR is like insurance. You hope you never need it. But when tragedy strikes, you are glad you had it.

I see your perspective you see only your perspective, that's the difference.

Plus I'm trying harder to not be insulting, goodbye for now bill.

 

[Bill_Bright]

It is not about perspective. It is about the facts. Ripple occurs during the conversion (rectification) of AC to DC. It has absolutely nothing to do with any anomaly that comes off the grid.

If you took just a few seconds to Google it, you would easily learn what ripple is and where it comes from.

Plus I'm trying harder to not be insulting

That's good. Because if you keep assuming you know what ripple is, and then try to insult me for it, it would only make you look more foolish. And honestly, I don't want that because it helps no one.

 

[80-watt Hamster]

In the US, the power grid was established almost 100 years ago, or even more than 100 years ago! But all across Europe and much of Asia and in developing countries, entire grids are relatively new and thus, much more stable. For example, I live in the "old town" section of my town and it dates back to the mid 1800s. All my utilities are "above ground". My power is distributed on polls, not buried.

Someone told me once that utilities would prefer that more wiring be above ground, as it's easier to maintain and repair. Burrowing rodents are apparently a bigger risk than weather and trees.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

It is not about perspective. It is about the facts. Ripple occurs during the conversion (rectification) of AC to DC. It has absolutely nothing to do with any anomaly that comes off the grid.

If you took just a few seconds to Google it, you would easily learn what ripple is and where it comes from.

That's good. Because if you keep assuming you know what ripple is, and then try to insult me for it, it would only make you look more foolish. And honestly, I don't want that because it helps no one.

I also mentioned they are there for minor voltage drops but you ignored that eh.

I know what ripple is i was giving more than one use case for the large capacitors and capacitors generally in a PSU and i mentioned that those work to keep the power adequately stable for small power deviations and in short i mentioned a good psu has adequate protection circuitry too, you seem triggered im off, again.

 

[Amskeptical]

Useless? Ummm, no. Sorry but not true.

Surge and spike protectors can easily absorb many surges and spikes without being grounded. They simply convert the excess voltage into heat. But for "extreme" surges and spikes, they would normally shunt the excess to ground. So in those events a dependable ground is certainly a must.

And of course, for an UPS, it is not true because for many anomalies, the regulator circuits adjust as needed. And if an excessive anomaly is detected (or a full outage), they cut-over to the batteries. So likewise, it can do its job without being grounded. They are more effective with "extreme" anomalies with a dependable ground - but they certainly are not "useless" without one.

 

[tabascosauz]

Hello everyone, I've just built my desktop system. But since I've invested a lot of money on it, I want to protect the circuits, and prolong the lifespan of my computer. Therefore I've bought a APC Schneider Essential Surge Arrest, but should I also have a UPS and/or Voltage regulator? Sometimes there are small fluctuations in my area which causes blinks in my monitor.
Thanks in advance!

A PSU has big caps in it for just that ripple suppression and a small degree of brown out survival and a good one all the protective circuitry you need upto a lightning strike.
Well I must be lucky these last many years.
You want a UPS fine it provides more protection no doubt but IMHO it's not essential and for most not necessary.
Your ok to disagree but from my perspective I'm right still ..

I mean, yes, but the OP literally said in the first post that his monitor "blinks". I'm happy that you live in an area where power is good (one of the few things I'll admit was better living in Bristol), but it looks like OP doesn't quite enjoy the same.

I live in an area with a now-terrible grid (outages every other month in the winter) and before I got my APC BR1500MS, I had these "blinks" all the time - especially in the years where we had brownouts more than blackouts. The computer stays running but the lights in the house go off for a split second, and the video on the monitors cuts out together with those lights. All for less than a second. When the lights come back, the video comes back.

After I got the UPS, it would quickly kick over to battery and back several times a day on the worst days of the season.

With the privilege of reliable and clean power it's a given that a UPS is a luxury (hell, they aren't cheap), but as for the rest of us...

Coincidentally we had a windstorm last night that knocked out power to 100,000+ customers . I didn't immediately get the power cut, but the power cycled on and off about 3 times in the span of 10 seconds while I was playing some games. Yeah, I'm not keen on finding out what happens without a UPS.

 

[xrobwx71]

i don't understand why "First World" countries have these massive problems with power. It's the simple science of electricity. Also, the complexity of the grid and it's multiple variables ie: connections, age, maintenance, etc.

there was not a single power cut in my whole life nor my parents whole existence.
never any "voltage fluctuations" or anything else. This would be as rare as finding a $USD dime on Mars.
230V 16A 24/7 since... ever.

PS:
i had to google to understand what a "UPS" even is..

 

[mclaren85]

I just want to remind you that my monitor blinks not because of a faulty grid, but rather little fluctuations which occurs in the building. Especially when turning on high power machines.. At the same time of the blink, the speakers gives a strange "click" sound.
@Bill_Bright

 

[Bill_Bright]

I just want to remind you that my monitor blinks not because of a faulty grid, but rather little fluctuations which occurs in the building. Especially when turning on high power machines.. At the same time of the blink, the speakers gives a strange "click" sound.

Which suggests faulty wiring inside the home, and/or possible RFI/EMI from some other devices - perhaps due to a faulty ground or damaged shielding on a cable.

Make sure all your computer components are connected to the same wall outlet. This ensure they share a "common" ground. I also recommend checking each wall outlet for proper wiring and grounding. Every home and every computer user should have access to a AC Outlet Tester to ensure the wall outlet is properly wired and grounded to Earth ground. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets (outlets near water) too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, (like this one for the UK) at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Wal-Mart. Use it to test all the outlets in the home and if a fault is shown, have it fixed by a qualified electrician.

I also mentioned they are there for minor voltage drops but you ignored that eh

Gee whiz. I did not ignore it. I have mentioned dips, sags and brownouts multiple times. You were just incorrect.

So let's look at what you really said. You implied ripple suppression is a factor in deciding whether or not to use a UPS. That is incorrect. Ripple and ripple suppression play no role at all. Why? Because ripple is unwanted AC riding the DC output of the power supply. It has nothing to do with input voltage to the PSU. And an UPS outputs AC, not DC.

You said a PSU provides a small degree of "brown out survival". That also is wrong. The ATX Form Factor standard only requires ATX PSUs maintain ("hold up") output for 16ms should the input voltage drop below 90VAC/180VAC thresholds. A "brownout", by definition is a long duration sag. And a sag typically lasts from 3 to 10 cycles, or 50 to 170 milliseconds. Therefore, no way will an ATX PSU provide any protection or "survival" from a brown out - or even a sag.

Note the average human eye/brain can detect power fluctuations (flickering lights) that last 30ms or longer. This means a "dip" (opposite of a spike) of just 20ms is more than a enough to cause a PSU to stop output and crash the computer - all without the user ever being aware a power anomaly occurred.

Then you said, in your mind, their only advantage is providing power during an outage. It has repeatedly been mentioned that it is the AVR (automatic voltage regulation) that is their primary advantage and backup power during a power outage is just a minor bonus. But you keep ignoring that fact and accuse me of only seeing my perspective.

And you suggested one has to spend 1K to protect 3K! Total nonsense.

Then of course, a UPS also protects more than just the computer's PSU. It can also protect the monitor(s) and all your network gears. If you have VoIP, it can keep your phone service running. Not to mention, the UPS can keep the computer from crashing, thus protecting the data from corruption. And I note for many, the data is MUCH MORE valuable than all the hardware.

Someone told me once that utilities would prefer that more wiring be above ground, as it's easier to maintain and repair. Burrowing rodents are apparently a bigger risk than weather and trees.

No - they definitely prefer underground utilities. It does cost more to lay/install underground, but once in place, it takes very little maintenance as there is very little need for repair. Wind, ice, and falling trees and tree branches are not a concern. The outer insulation is essentially rodent-proof. Plus, in most cases, those cables are buried at least 24 inches deep - even deeper (below the frost layer) in cold climates. And rodents prefer grubs and roots to hard plastics and metal shielding. When buried in sewers, the cables run through metal conduits.

If there is a break in the line, a crew of just a couple people in 1 repair truck can repair it. If lines are pulled off polls, it could take many people in several trucks.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Which suggests faulty wiring inside the home, and/or possible RFI/EMI from some other devices - perhaps due to a faulty ground or damaged shielding on a cable.

Make sure all your computer components are connected to the same wall outlet. This ensure they share a "common" ground. I also recommend checking each wall outlet for proper wiring and grounding. Every home and every computer user should have access to a AC Outlet Tester to ensure the wall outlet is properly wired and grounded to Earth ground. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets (outlets near water) too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, (like this one for the UK) at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Wal-Mart. Use it to test all the outlets in the home and if a fault is shown, have it fixed by a qualified electrician.

Gee whiz. I did not ignore it. I have mentioned dips, sags and brownouts multiple times. You were just incorrect.

So let's look at what you really said. You implied ripple suppression is a factor in deciding whether or not to use a UPS. That is incorrect. Ripple and ripple suppression play no role at all. Why? Because ripple is unwanted AC riding the DC output of the power supply. It has nothing to do with input voltage to the PSU. And an UPS outputs AC, not DC.

You said a PSU provides a small degree of "brown out survival". That also is wrong. The ATX Form Factor standard only requires ATX PSUs maintain ("hold up") output for 16ms should the input voltage drop below 90VAC/180VAC thresholds. A "brownout", by definition is a long duration sag. And a sag typically lasts from 3 to 10 cycles, or 50 to 170 milliseconds. Therefore, no way will an ATX PSU provide any protection or "survival" from a brown out - or even a sag.

Note the average human eye/brain can detect power fluctuations (flickering lights) that last 30ms or longer. This means a "dip" (opposite of a spike) of just 20ms is more than a enough to cause a PSU to stop output and crash the computer - all without the user ever being aware a power anomaly occurred.

Then you said, in your mind, their only advantage is providing power during an outage. It has repeatedly been mentioned that it is the AVR (automatic voltage regulation) that is their primary advantage and backup power during a power outage is just a minor bonus. But you keep ignoring that fact and accuse me of only seeing my perspective.

And you suggested one has to spend 1K to protect 3K! Total nonsense.

Then of course, a UPS also protects more than just the computer's PSU. It can also protect the monitor(s) and all your network gears. If you have VoIP, it can keep your phone service running. Not to mention, the UPS can keep the computer from crashing, thus protecting the data from corruption. And I note for many, the data is MUCH MORE valuable than all the hardware.


No - they definitely prefer underground utilities. It does cost more to lay/install underground, but once in place, it takes very little maintenance as there is very little need for repair. Wind, ice, and falling trees and tree branches are not a concern. The outer insulation is essentially rodent-proof. Plus, in most cases, those cables are buried at least 24 inches deep - even deeper (below the frost layer) in cold climates. And rodents prefer grubs and roots to hard plastics and metal shielding. When buried in sewers, the cables run through metal conduits.

If there is a break in the line, a crew of just a couple people in 1 repair truck can repair it. If lines are pulled off polls, it could take many people in several trucks.

Welcome to ignore , now you can whittle on page after page go you.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Welcome to ignore

That would be wonderful. Thank you.

 

[ThrashZone]

I just want to remind you that my monitor blinks not because of a faulty grid, but rather little fluctuations which occurs in the building. Especially when turning on high power machines.. At the same time of the blink, the speakers gives a strange "click" sound.
@Bill_Bright

Hi,
Sounds like too many items on the same circuit.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Hi,
Sounds like too many items on the same circuit.

That's a good point! Especially if they are high-wattage. Something worth checking into and if possible, moving some items to another circuit.

But I note he said, "in the building". That could suggest a multi-dwelling unit, like an apartment building where circuits are shared among units. It may not be possible to redistribute those loads.

That said, if it is an apartment building, I sure would get one of those outlet checkers and if a fault is found, you have some leverage to have the landlord pay to get it fixed - and quickly.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Not sure what they do in your country but if they use multiple circuits they should be labeled for which room they are for.
Just have to move stuff maybe to separate power consumption off computers.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Not sure what they do in your country but if they use multiple circuits they should be labeled for which room they are for.

I think that is a pretty standard code requirement everywhere. However, whether or not that code standard is enforced or not is an entirely different matter. Many jurisdictions don't have the funding and resources to enforce those codes, and in some jurisdictions, the inspectors are living well above their "reported" income.

 

[mclaren85]

I think I will buy this:

APC, a flagship brand of Schneider Electric

APC, a flagship brand of Schneider Electric, provides clean battery back-up power, surge protection, and IT physical infrastructure inside and outside the traditional IT environment to deliver ‘Certainty in a Connected World’

www.apc.com

And Bill @Bill_Bright thank you, APC confirms your warning..

Using surge strips with APC's Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products. - APC USA

"In order for your UPS to get the best power available, you should plug your UPS directly into the wall receptacle"

 

[Bill_Bright]

That is definitely big enough to support your computer, at least one monitor and all your network gear too - I would guess for at least 15 minutes. It has a 6ms typical (10ms maximum) transfer (cutover) time which is really good (assuming your PSU meets the ATX standards).

I don't see where it has communications between the UPS and Windows via USB. It supports USB charging but I don't see communications. It is not absolutely essential but it is nice to be able to tell the UPS to signal Windows and the computer to "gracefully" close out all open files and programs and properly shutdown Windows and the computer before the batteries run down. Not sure if this computer supports that or how you could program it without a LCD control panel or software. You might want to download and go over the user manual and see what it says.

Again, this communication is not absolutely essential. The AVR will still work just fine. As will the battery backup, if needed. You just might not be able to program when or how the UPS shuts down. If not an option, the UPS runs on batteries until the batteries drain, then the UPS just shuts off and waits until grid power is restored.