Should SATA get updated specs? Example SATA 4.0 @ 36Gbps, 48Gbps or 64Gbps.

Keullo-e · May 17, 2022

Any update would be fine, as SATA3.0 is about 13 years old already.

SL2 · May 17, 2022

OliverQueen said:
we would start seeing the cost per Terabyte on nVME come down to similar levels of high end SATA storage with lower power overheads.

In my experience, the cost have been about the same for years.

eidairaman1 · May 17, 2022

lexluthermiester said:
The idea is to keep the connector the same and backward compatibility intact.

Valantar said:
If they could make a PCIe x1 link work over something resembling a regular SATA cable that could be interesting, but anyone who has touched PCIe 4.0 risers knows transmitting those kinds of speeds over a cable is... tricky at best, requiring high quality cabling with very good shielding etc - which is expensive. So either you need expensive, semi-exotic cabling or this tops out at a single lane of PCIe 3.0 (~900MB/s theoretical, ~800 real world?), which isn't much of an improvement over regular SATA. And if you're going PCIe anyhow, why not make it NVMe while you're at it?

This is why m.2 has taken over: motherboard mounting is far simpler, requires no fussy or expensive cables, and SATA is there as a fallback for slower storage if needed. There's no need for controllers, just more CPU/chipset lanes, which faster SATA would need as well. And the vast majority of people don't need that, crucially. m.2 absolutely has its drawbacks, and certainly isn't ideal for those wanting massive capacities (consumer platforms don't have the lanes, after all), but there doesn't seem to be a market for some in-between solution.

Yet people screw up the m.2 mounting...

Valantar · May 17, 2022

eidairaman1 said:
Yet people screw up the m.2 mounting...

Sure, but there's nothing idiot-proof about the internals of a PC. And it's not like SATA connectors are particularly durable or well engineered either, after all.

TheLostSwede · May 17, 2022

Valantar said:
Sure, but there's nothing idiot-proof about the internals of a PC. And it's not like SATA connectors are particularly durable or well engineered either, after all.

Yeah, it's pretty much the only internal connector I have managed to snap. Somehow the plastic can get brittle after a few years and if you tug a cable the wrong way, the part sticking out on the drives break. Can't say I'm a huge fan of SATA power connectors either, although Molex power connectors are pretty grim at times too.
That said, not missing IDE either.
M.2 is a bit fiddly and could've been designed a bit more sturdily.

GerKNG · May 17, 2022

i rather take no SATA Ports and one more M.2 Slot.

ThrashZone · May 17, 2022

eidairaman1 said:
SATA is a good standard thats been around Circa 2002/2003, it should have its bandwidth increased or the standard merged into SAS.

Temperature and stealing of pcie slots by m.2 is reason enough to keep SATA.

5800 rig is zippy with 11 on a 250GB MX500 SATA.

Hi,
I'm pretty much the same as above

m.2's are just to hot and most are a pita to get to if you need or want to.

I only have 2-500gb m.2's atm and don't even use them anymore sata's are way easier to deal with and more versatile because I also use 2.5" easy swap bays for. well name is self explanatory come in real handy dual booting and especially with linux.

But would be nice to update spec's past 6g for sure.

Selaya · May 17, 2022

Valantar said:
If they could make a PCIe x1 link work over something resembling a regular SATA cable that could be interesting, but anyone who has touched PCIe 4.0 risers knows transmitting those kinds of speeds over a cable is... tricky at best, requiring high quality cabling with very good shielding etc - which is expensive. So either you need expensive, semi-exotic cabling or this tops out at a single lane of PCIe 3.0 (~900MB/s theoretical, ~800 real world?), which isn't much of an improvement over regular SATA. And if you're going PCIe anyhow, why not make it NVMe while you're at it?

This is why m.2 has taken over: motherboard mounting is far simpler, requires no fussy or expensive cables, and SATA is there as a fallback for slower storage if needed. There's no need for controllers, just more CPU/chipset lanes, which faster SATA would need as well. And the vast majority of people don't need that, crucially. m.2 absolutely has its drawbacks, and certainly isn't ideal for those wanting massive capacities (consumer platforms don't have the lanes, after all), but there doesn't seem to be a market for some in-between solution.

.

eidairaman1 · May 17, 2022

Valantar said:
Sure, but there's nothing idiot-proof about the internals of a PC. And it's not like SATA connectors are particularly durable or well engineered either, after all.

They are keyed, m.2 most lean the device and not use the stand off correctly.

And SATA connectors use locking tabs.

lexluthermiester said:
The idea is to keep the connector the same and backward compatibility intact.

Then again SAS incorporates SATA into its comm bus, just connector is bigger lol

defaultluser · May 17, 2022

SAS 12Gbps is as fast as they could go, until you change the connector.

I'll take the bump, but I'm not sure I'd notice it!

ThrashZone · May 17, 2022

Hi,
Isn't intel killing off intel rapid storage console ?
I never use it but last time I opened it got a message it was being discontinued.

Valantar · May 17, 2022

TheLostSwede said:
Yeah, it's pretty much the only internal connector I have managed to snap. Somehow the plastic can get brittle after a few years and if you tug a cable the wrong way, the part sticking out on the drives break. Can't say I'm a huge fan of SATA power connectors either, although Molex power connectors are pretty grim at times too.
That said, not missing IDE either.
M.2 is a bit fiddly and could've been designed a bit more sturdily.

Same here. I remember reading somewhere that the insertion cycle rating for SATA connectors is absolutely stupidly low - I can't remember exactly, but I want to say 20? A connector that's within spec if it falls apart after being connected and disconnected 20 times is, IMO, a bad design, no matter if it mostly lasts much longer than that.

eidairaman1 said:
They are keyed, m.2 most lean the device and not use the stand off correctly.

And SATA connectors use locking tabs.

And I've seen those locking tabs cause people to rip headers off motherboards, so... yeah. Both those cases sound roughly equivalent to me: no such thing as an idiot proof PC component.

windwhirl · May 17, 2022

Honestly, I'm not sure there's much point for a new SATA standard with higher bandwidth.

Starting with HDDs, I doubt the multi-actuator thing that Seagate has been working on will make the HDDs a lot faster. Maybe double the speed (so, roughly 500 MB/s), but still well within the limits of 3rd gen SATA.

Regarding SSDs...I don't think it makes sense. NVME does the job fine, better than SATA could.

And if you wanted multiple SSD drives (which could be a use case for the multiple SATA ports that are usually available on almost every board), you're usually better off with an external enclosure/NAS or a M2 PCIE adapter.

ir_cow · May 17, 2022

SATA12 exists but it flopped so hard not many know of it.

regs · May 17, 2022

AT is dead. Time to move on.

R-T-B · May 17, 2022

ir_cow said:
SATA12 exists but it flopped so hard not many know of it.

Wikipedia does not even know of this... you sure?

newtekie1 · May 17, 2022

This question seems odd to me, because SATA and NVMe are two completely different things. It makes no sense to compare them. SATA and PCI-E are comparable as they are the physical connectors or AHCI or NVMe are comparable as they are transfer protocols.

That said, I'd be happy with SATA staying at the same speed connection, but using the NVMe protocol instead of AHCI. This should minimize cost, as well as make backwards compatibility simple, while also boosting the random read/write speeds over the SATA connection, which is going to make the biggest difference in real world use. Obviously faster speed and NVMe would be best. However, I'd take same speed with NVMe over faster speed but still AHCI.

windwhirl · May 17, 2022

R-T-B said:
Wikipedia does not even know of this... you sure?

It flopped so hard it didn't leave the drawing board (?) :laugh:

SL2 · May 17, 2022

R-T-B said:
Wikipedia does not even know of this... you sure?

Just google sata-12gbps

R-T-B · May 17, 2022

Mats said:
Just google sata-12gbps

Yeah I did. Looks like a lot of theory and no product?

SL2 · May 17, 2022

R-T-B said:
Yeah I did. Looks like a lot of theory and no product?

Actually I found products and no useful info beyond theory. Now I'm not sure tho, those at allhd dot com could just be SAS drives with typos.

Valantar · May 17, 2022

Mats said:
Actually I found products and no useful info beyond theory. Now I'm not sure tho, those at allhd dot com could just be SAS drives with typos.

I found those same results, though searching for the HDD model numbers gives either SAS 12Gbps or SATA 6Gbps results. This seems 99% like some site making erroneous listings for some reason.

Aquinus · May 17, 2022

The reality is that SATA as a connector as it stands right now is severely limited. We would need a new connector to accompany a new spec to achieve the kinds of numbers suggested in the poll.

R-T-B · May 17, 2022

I mean, they could probably eek a little more out of it with good shielding or something. Then you'd just have "SATA4" ready cabling. But I don't know about the specs assumed here. I doubt you'd get past 30gbps frankly.

AusWolf · May 17, 2022

Valantar said:
I see no reason for an updated SATA standard. The current spec is plenty for HDDs, and NVMe handles anything else. m.2 is vastly more practical, and there's u.2 if you need off-board mounting - which is easily adapted from any m.2 slot or PCIe slot. The lack of extra controllers is a boon for efficiency and makes for simpler chipsets and motherboards, and the inherent flexibility and scalability of PCIe is great. Thr only drawback is the increased need for PCIe controllers, but faster SATA would require that as well.

This (link) is also a practical solution for adding more nvme drives.

System Name	4K-gaming
Processor	AMD Ryzen 7 5800X up to 5.05GHz
Motherboard	Gigabyte B550M Aorus Elite
Cooling	Custom loop (CPU+GPU, 240 & 120 rads)
Memory	32GB Kingston HyperX Fury @ DDR4-3466
Video Card(s)	PowerColor RX 6700 XT Fighter OC/UV
Storage	~4TB SSD + 6TB HDD
Display(s)	Acer 27" 4K120 IPS + Lenovo 32" 4K60 IPS
Case	Corsair 4000D Airflow White
Audio Device(s)	Asus TUF H3 Wireless
Power Supply	EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse	Logitech MX518
Keyboard	Roccat Vulcan 121 AIMO
VR HMD	Oculus Rift CV1
Software	Windows 11 Pro
Benchmark Scores	It runs Crysis remastered at 4K

System Name	PCGOD
Processor	AMD FX 8350@ 5.0GHz
Motherboard	Asus TUF 990FX Sabertooth R2 2901 Bios
Cooling	Scythe Ashura, 2×BitFenix 230mm Spectre Pro LED (Blue,Green), 2x BitFenix 140mm Spectre Pro LED
Memory	16 GB Gskill Ripjaws X 2133 (2400 OC, 10-10-12-20-20, 1T, 1.65V)
Video Card(s)	AMD Radeon 290 Sapphire Vapor-X
Storage	Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, WD Velociraptor 1TB
Display(s)	NEC Multisync LCD 1700V (Display Port Adapter)
Case	AeroCool Xpredator Evil Blue Edition
Audio Device(s)	Creative Labs Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply	Seasonic 1250 XM2 Series (XP3)
Mouse	Roccat Kone XTD
Keyboard	Roccat Ryos MK Pro
Software	Windows 7 Pro 64

System Name	Hotbox
Processor	AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 110/95/110, PBO +150Mhz, CO -7,-7,-20(x6),
Motherboard	ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax
Cooling	LOBO + Laing DDC 1T Plus PWM + Corsair XR5 280mm + 2x Arctic P14
Memory	32GB G.Skill FlareX 3200c14 @3800c15
Video Card(s)	PowerColor Radeon 6900XT Liquid Devil Ultimate, UC@2250MHz max @~200W
Storage	2TB Adata SX8200 Pro
Display(s)	Dell U2711 main, AOC 24P2C secondary
Case	SSUPD Meshlicious
Audio Device(s)	Optoma Nuforce μDAC 3
Power Supply	Corsair SF750 Platinum
Mouse	Logitech G603
Keyboard	Keychron K3/Cooler Master MasterKeys Pro M w/DSA profile caps
Software	Windows 10 Pro

System Name	Overlord Mk MLI
Processor	AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D
Motherboard	Gigabyte X670E Aorus Master
Cooling	Noctua NH-D15 SE with offsets
Memory	32GB Team T-Create Expert DDR5 6000 MHz @ CL30-34-34-68
Video Card(s)	Gainward GeForce RTX 4080 Phantom GS
Storage	1TB Solidigm P44 Pro, 2 TB Corsair MP600 Pro, 2TB Kingston KC3000
Display(s)	Acer XV272K LVbmiipruzx 4K@160Hz
Case	Fractal Design Torrent Compact
Audio Device(s)	Corsair Virtuoso SE
Power Supply	be quiet! Pure Power 12 M 850 W
Mouse	Logitech G502 Lightspeed
Keyboard	Corsair K70 Max
Software	Windows 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores	https://valid.x86.fr/5za05v

System Name	Sunk Cost Fallacy
Processor	AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D
Motherboard	ASRock B650E Steel Legend Wifi
Cooling	Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 Rev. 7
Memory	2x16GB G.Skill Trident Z5 NEO 6000 CL30
Video Card(s)	Sapphire Nitro+ RX 7900 XTX Vapor-X
Storage	WD Black SN850X 1TB + 2x 2TB, 2x 4TB Crucial MX500, 4TB Samsung 870 Evo.
Display(s)	Alienware AW2723DF, LG 27GR93U, LG 27GN950-B
Case	Lian Li O11 Air Mini
Audio Device(s)	Bose Companion Series 2 III, Sennheiser GSP600 and HD599 SE - Creative Soundblaster X4
Power Supply	bequiet! Dark Power Pro 12 1500w Titanium
Mouse	Logitech GPRO X Superlight & G502 X
Keyboard	Corsair K65 RGB Mini, Razer Black Widow V3 TKL
VR HMD	Oculus Rift S

Should SATA get updated specs? Example SATA 4.0 @ 36Gbps, 48Gbps or 64Gbps.

Should SATA get updated specs?

SATA 4.0 @ 36Gbps.

SATA 4.0 @ 48Gbps.

SATA 4.0 @ 64Gbps.

SATA 4.0 @ 72+Gbps.

I like NVMe but also want an updated SATA spec.

No, I'm happy with NVMe.

Other(Please discuss below).

Keullo-e

S.T.A.R.S.

SL2

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman

Valantar

TheLostSwede

News Editor

GerKNG

ThrashZone

Selaya

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman

defaultluser

ThrashZone

Valantar

windwhirl

ir_cow

regs

R-T-B

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder

windwhirl

SL2

R-T-B

SL2

Valantar

Aquinus

Resident Wat-man

R-T-B

AusWolf

System Name	Ghetto Rigs z490\|x99\|Acer 17 Nitro 7840hs/ 5600c40-2x16/ 4060/ 1tb acer stock m.2/ 4tb sn850x
Processor	10900k w/Optimus Foundation \| 5930k w/Black Noctua D15
Motherboard	z490 Maximus XII Apex \| x99 Sabertooth
Cooling	oCool D5 res-combo/280 GTX/ Optimus Foundation/ gpu water block \| Blk D15
Memory	Trident-Z Royal 4000c16 2x16gb \| Trident-Z 3200c14 4x8gb
Video Card(s)	Titan Xp-water \| evga 980ti gaming-w/ air
Storage	970evo+500gb & sn850x 4tb \| 860 pro 256gb \| Acer m.2 1tb/ sn850x 4tb\| Many2.5" sata's ssd 3.5hdd's
Display(s)	1-AOC G2460PG 24"G-Sync 144Hz/ 2nd 1-ASUS VG248QE 24"/ 3rd LG 43" series
Case	D450 \| Cherry Entertainment center on Test bench
Audio Device(s)	Built in Realtek x2 with 2-Insignia 2.0 sound bars & 1-LG sound bar
Power Supply	EVGA 1000P2 with APC AX1500 \| 850P2 with CyberPower-GX1325U
Mouse	Redragon 901 Perdition x3
Keyboard	G710+x3
Software	Win-7 pro x3 and win-10 & 11pro x3
Benchmark Scores	Are in the benchmark section

System Name	System V
Processor	AMD Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard	Asus Prime X570-P
Cooling	Cooler Master Hyper 212 // a bunch of 120 mm Xigmatek 1500 RPM fans (2 ins, 3 outs)
Memory	2x8GB Ballistix Sport LT 3200 MHz (BLS8G4D32AESCK.M8FE) (CL16-18-18-36)
Video Card(s)	Gigabyte AORUS Radeon RX 580 8 GB
Storage	SHFS37A240G / DT01ACA200 / WD20EZRX / MKNSSDTR256GB-3DL / LG BH16NS40 / ST10000VN0008
Display(s)	LG 22MP55 IPS Display
Case	NZXT Source 210
Audio Device(s)	Logitech G430 Headset
Power Supply	Corsair CX650M
Mouse	Microsoft Trackball Optical 1.0
Keyboard	HP Vectra VE keyboard (Part # D4950-63004)
Software	Whatever build of Windows 11 is being served in Dev channel at the time.
Benchmark Scores	Corona 1.3: 3120620 r/s Cinebench R20: 3355 FireStrike: 12490 TimeSpy: 4624

System Name	Pioneer
Processor	Ryzen R9 7950X
Motherboard	GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling	Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory	64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s)	XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage	2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s)	55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case	Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s)	TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply	FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse	Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard	WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches + PBT DS keycaps
Software	Gentoo Linux x64

Processor	Intel Core i7 10850K@5.2GHz
Motherboard	AsRock Z470 Taichi
Cooling	Corsair H115i Pro w/ Noctua NF-A14 Fans
Memory	32GB DDR4-3600
Video Card(s)	RTX 2070 Super
Storage	500GB SX8200 Pro + 8TB with 1TB SSD Cache
Display(s)	Acer Nitro VG280K 4K 28"
Case	Fractal Design Define S
Audio Device(s)	Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply	eVGA SuperNOVA 1000w G3
Software	Windows 10 Pro x64

System Name	Apollo
Processor	Intel Core i9 9880H
Motherboard	Some proprietary Apple thing.
Memory	64GB DDR4-2667
Video Card(s)	AMD Radeon Pro 5600M, 8GB HBM2
Storage	1TB Apple NVMe, 4TB External
Display(s)	Laptop @ 3072x1920 + 2x LG 5k Ultrafine TB3 displays
Case	MacBook Pro (16", 2019)
Audio Device(s)	AirPods Pro, Sennheiser HD 380s w/ FIIO Alpen 2, or Logitech 2.1 Speakers
Power Supply	96w Power Adapter
Mouse	Logitech MX Master 3
Keyboard	Logitech G915, GL Clicky
Software	MacOS 12.1

System Name	Nebulon-B Mk. 4
Processor	AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D
Motherboard	MSi PRO B650M-A WiFi
Cooling	be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Memory	2x 24 GB Corsair Vengeance EXPO DDR5-6000
Video Card(s)	Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 7800 XT
Storage	2 TB Corsair MP600 GS, 2 TB Corsair MP600 R2, 4 + 8 TB Seagate Barracuda 3.5"
Display(s)	Dell S3422DWG, 7" Waveshare touchscreen
Case	Kolink Citadel Mesh black
Power Supply	Seasonic Prime GX-750
Mouse	Logitech MX Master 2S
Keyboard	Logitech G413 SE
Software	Windows 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores	Cinebench R23 single-core: 1,800, multi-core: 18,000. Superposition 1080p Extreme: 9,900.