Naturally Aspired PC WaterCooling Club

[Wile E]

Are you gonna run 2 loops, or just one? If you put the cpu in it's own loop, those pumps will work fine with the EK block.

 

[[MD]Phantom]

@Wile E,

For a pump, An MCP355 with a different top would work great with the Dtek Fuzion and GPU in the same loop.

This was what you said a few posts earlier, so i was creating the WC for a single loop.

I was planning to use the Hydro L20 for the mainboard cooling.

 

[Wile E]

@Wile E,

For a pump, An MCP355 with a different top would work great with the Dtek Fuzion and GPU in the same loop.

This was what you said a few posts earlier, so i was creating the WC for a single loop.

I was planning to use the Hydro L20 for the mainboard cooling.

If you go with the Dtek, then yeah, it will be fine to put the cpu and gpu in the loop.

 

[[MD]Phantom]

I am posting on another part in this forum about this, and there it was said that if you made one loop, the component that will be later in the loop will not be cooled down enough, sort off.

PS: i don't want too upset people by questioning they'r answers, because i am very greatfull for any answer i get. Being a bit of a Noob at this.

 

[Wile E]

Cooling won't be as good, because you are adding more heat to the loop. But it will still be better than air. It's better to do 2 loops from a cooling standpoint, but it's often much easier to run one loop from a assembly standpoint. 2 loops = better cooling. 1 loop = more convenience.

 

[Fitseries3]

I am posting on another part in this forum about this, and there it was said that if you made one loop, the component that will be later in the loop will not be cooled down enough, sort off.

PS: i don't want too upset people by questioning they'r answers, because i am very greatfull for any answer i get. Being a bit of a Noob at this.

no.. it's cool. everyone has different thoughts about stuff.

i have run single and dual loop setups and the dual loop cools better.

 

[EastCoasthandle]

I've read a few posts that the L20 may rattle if not kept cool. If you buy the L20, make sure you keep it in a well ventilated area.

 

[EastCoasthandle]

@sirkeldon, i have seen a lot of shops al ready and a PA120.1 will cost almost as much as a PA120.2 with a difference of only 7 euro at times, and i have seen that the PA120.2 is performing considerably better. Maybee that would be a better choice?.


Oke let's asses it then, as it is now

1 pump i preffer the Laing DDC1+ 12v (i think)
2 Thermochill PA120.2 (most expensive parts that's for sure)
1 thermaltake aquabay M3
1 D-Tek fuzion with nozzle kit
1 Gpu block (still too be found)
1 RADI120AL Magicool Radiator 120 aluminium
1 Hydor Seltz L20 Universal pump

Well this is it i think then, fluid and other minor things not included.

it will cost around 300-350 euro's.
A lot off money,

And still i wonder if i use the Laing D5 won't that pump be strong enough too incorporate the EK supreme?. Reason it's a bit cheaper. The D-Tek wil cost me about 70 Euro and the EK supreme around 45 Euro, a difference of 25 Euro.

The difference between the DDC1+ at 75.43 Euro and the Laing D5 at 80.02 Euro is only 5 Euro, so 20 Euro less spend.

I have saved money for a good watercooled system but i am not prepared to throw it out the window easily.

The list is not bad at all . For cooling may I suggest distilled water (if available in your area). I wouldn't use de-ionized water as it can corrode the metal in your blocks/rad to get its ions back. A few drops of either PT Nuke or 91%+ rubbing alcohol should do the trick.

The D5 pump should accommodate the cooling advantage found in a EK Surpreme in a single loop. However, I am not sure if those advantages are had if you install more blocks to that loop. Also note, that the advantages found are roughly 1C or less to a FuZion from what I've seen.


Edited for correction

 

[[MD]Phantom]

One thing is for sure im a bit overwhelmed with al this infomation, but still thank you all for it.

Maybee i started out the wrong way,

This is what i want,

A watercooling solution that performs well and is still not too noisy and don't cost an arm and a leg (probably the perfect system as i read it now].

It has too cool down my new pc made of fast hardware, because i am a gamer.

The mainboard will probably be based on the X48 chipset, the CPU will be around the E8400 and i am intended too overclock it.

The GPU will be around the 8800GT and also will be overclocked.

Sinds there is not much information about the new intel processors and Nvidia graphics cards i cannot be more precies about it, but i am waiting for those two to be sold.

Another thing springs in too mind, the cost off this as i have it now will be around 300-350 euro, you can buy like a RESERATOR XT for the same price. But will it perform as good as a custom made WC?.

@fitseries3 was there a lot off difference between one and two loops?, in degrees if possible.

@Eastcoasthandle what other cheap but still good pump would you have in mind too keep the mainboard cool, if not the L20. Keeping in mind that maybee the RAM will also bee watercooled by it.

@Wile E i have a bit of a technical/mechanical background so inconviniance will be at a minimum. and as i understand your'e post if i want good cooling make two loops.

But will the performance outwheight the extra cost?.

 

[Fitseries3]

q6600 @ 3.6ghz and 8800gtx....

1 loop
q6600 33c idle.....46c load
8800gtx 39c idle....53c load

2 loop
q6600 26c idle.....35c load
8800gtx 36c idle....44c load

single loop was...
1x laing d5
PA120.3
DD GTX block
d-tek fuzion

dual loop was...
loop 1..
laing d5
d-tek fuzion
PA120.2

loop 2..
DD GTX block
laing d5
PA120.3

i had 2 gtxs on the GPU loop as well and temps were only about 1-3c higher.

pics in my sig.

 

[SirKeldon]

@sirkeldon, i have seen a lot of shops al ready and a PA120.1 will cost almost as much as a PA120.2 with a difference of only 7 euro at times, and i have seen that the PA120.2 is performing considerably better. Maybee that would be a better choice?.

Money is not the problem at all, space is, to use it i'll have to buy an adaptor to place it at the 120mm fan bay that's located onto the rear of the case, this is not the main problem cause i'll be able to do it ... but since my case is a mid-tower one (45cm high) i think it won't allow me to connect the graphics cards connector as well as the Audigy4 Pro ones if the 120x2 rad is there so i said i thought i'll be condemned to use just 120x1 rad, and as i can see, Thermochill is the best option so i'll get one, i will measure well before buying one of them.

As EastCoastHandle says, my L20 produces a lot of heat and starts rattle sometimes, the heat produced are not just that 14W they say on the specs cause the transformer from 220 to 12V sure it's located inside and produces extra heat, so if you're planning to get it, i'll place it outta the case. Since i have this problem i want to know if a D5 will produce the same heat as this Hydor L20 cause if the answer is yes or maybe more, i'll get just a MCP355 with a modified top. I think neither of them won't produce that heat cause both pumps are built to work on 12V and not 220V but your answer will be very appreciated. Thanks in advance

 

[EastCoasthandle]

[MD]Phantom,
The L20 is the cheapest that I know of at this time (according to what you quoted in a previous post regarding pricing in your area). However, you may look into
Danger Den DD-CPX1
Danger Den DDC-12V 18 Watt Version 3.2

But read this thread about the MCP350/355 failure rate problem. The update to that post is found here

These are 2 that I can think of right now. I am not sure of their reliability as the DD-CPX1 if fairly new and the other, well read the link above.

If you decide on a waterblock that only cools the GPU (it only covers the gpu). May I also suggest a ram/pwm sink for your video card? Examples:
Iandh: Silver and Black
The guy who invented them posted a thread about it here
Thermalright 8800GT PWM Heatsinks

Post

Originally Posted by gabe View Post
Ok guys, let's talk about reliability.

In preamble, let me apologize in advance as I am not at liberty to release thorough statistical data because I have to respect the factory directives on the subject matter. So please read between the lines on some of the basic facts below:

90% of the pumps that we receive in RMA are not defective (we test every single one of them).

There is little if no difference in reliability between D5 (MCP655) and DDC1 (MCP350), and the number of actual failures is incredibly low (far better than any other pump manufacturer IMO). Stupid mistakes like inverting the wires in the D5 Molex connectors is arguably not counted as a failure.

Yes, one can normally expect somewhat less reliability from a pump that spins faster and heats up more (DDC2/MCP355).

 

[EastCoasthandle]

Money is not the problem at all, space is, to use it i'll have to buy an adaptor to place it at the 120mm fan bay that's located onto the rear of the case, this is not the main problem cause i'll be able to do it ... but since my case is a mid-tower one (45cm high) i think it won't allow me to connect the graphics cards connector as well as the Audigy4 Pro ones if the 120x2 rad is there so i said i thought i'll be condemned to use just 120x1 rad, and as i can see, Thermochill is the best option so i'll get one, i will measure well before buying one of them.

As EastCoastHandle says, my L20 produces a lot of heat and starts rattle sometimes, the heat produced are not just that 14W they say on the specs cause the transformer from 220 to 12V sure it's located inside and produces extra heat, so if you're planning to get it, i'll place it outta the case. Since i have this problem i want to know if a D5 will produce the same heat as this Hydor L20 cause if the answer is yes or maybe more, i'll get just a MCP355 with a modified top. I think neither of them won't produce that heat cause both pumps are built to work on 12V and not 220V but your answer will be very appreciated. Thanks in advance

The D5 can get hot after prolong use but I don't believe it will get as hot as the L20. I still suggest some sort of active cooling for either pump.

 

[Fitseries3]

just put the d5 by a fan. it doesn't get that hot. maybe 1 degree difference over a different pump.

 

[[MD]Phantom]

Maybee i should make my life easier by taking a waterblock that does not need high pressure to opperate at top performance.

Than i could use two L30's in a double loop,

As i have seen at the temps off fitseries3 it will be around 10 degrees difference that's a lot.

I know that a block wich is not as good as the Fuzion or supreme will cool less, but it won't be 10 degrees i think.

And i was thinking if i would make the loop like this RESERVOIR-PUMP-RADIATOR-CPU-RADIATOR-GPU-RESERVOIR.

Woudn't the second radiator cool down the water down enough?.

And then the search begins again, for a CPU block that does not need high pressure too operate good.

I was thinking of the L30 pumps 1300Liter/Hour is a lot of water that should be enough, shoudn't it?.

My zalman reserator that i have now does only 300Liter/Hour

And is 1 loop, and still keeps my Intel P4 prescott 3.4GHZ at around 40-45 degrees idle and the graphics card at 40-45 degrees too. When fully loaded they both get around 55-65 degrees.

@eastcosthandle, i always use distilled water it's easy too come buy and very cheap. And i also add some anti-corrosion stuff in it as well.

@eastcosthandle, i was indeed thinking off a GPU block that cools down the ram sinks as well.

 

[SirKeldon]

I was thinking of the L30 pumps 1300Liter/Hour is a lot of water that should be enough, shoudn't it?.

They'll bring you just 1200 liter per hour, at the same level as the laing D5 ... but i don't know if that Hydor L30 will produce the same heat as my Hydor L20, as they said to you, keep the Hydor's ventilated or outside the case. The Hydor's have one advantage, they're meant to be on an aquarium so they can be submerged, you can do it to a place with always fresh water (as a portable beach fridge), suring the cooling of the pump and avoiding you from possible rattles if becomes hot, if i had the needed stuff, i'll do it.

 

[[MD]Phantom]

Here is a nice review on the L30 and this guy says that it would bee even strong enough for a high pressure block, go figure what's right and wrong.

http://www.gruntville.com/reviews/wc/hydor_l30/index.php

And here another one,

http://www.overclockers.com/articles723/

 

[SirKeldon]

Yeah, it's a good pump, i have no doubt, my Hydor L20 is just 18EUR and is performing the job really well, just that "heat" issues. I read also good reviews about the Hydor L30, you'll getting a high-end pump but without the reliability of Laing, Swiftech or DD, it's on the same level of wattage and performance, and the price is really cool for that specs. I'd take note if the Hydor L30 (as her small sister) has also the 220->12V transformer inside, which will produce extra-heat to the water, or if you have place that will avoid them from heat, go ahead and think on better pumps for the future.

 

[intel igent]

1)dont use a single 120 rad for anything OTHER than mosfets/nb/sb. even thats pushing it with the newer chips.

2)the money you will spend on a thermochill 120.1 will get you a VERY nice swiftech 120.2 maybe a 120.3.

swiftech make the best price/performance rads.

3)LPH are only half the equation, that is only flow. you want a pump with good HEAD. 5ft - 6ft + is good, that is your pressure. that will tell you how well a pump will work with restrictions in the loop.

4)D4/D5 mcp650/mcp655 and all variants DO NOT require active cooling. i have had my loop running for months at a time without negative effect. the DDC series and mcp350/355 series however is reccomended to provide them with VENTILATION especially on the motor side. the use of petras gel is NOT reccomended as the pumps can generate enough heat to melt the gel thereby causing a short in the pump.

5)if using any AC pump (such as HYDOR/eheim) it is reccomended that you also purchase a starter relay so that the pump will function with the PC on/off cycles

 

[SirKeldon]

1)dont use a single 120 rad for anything OTHER than mosfets/nb/sb. even thats pushing it with the newer chips.

2)the money you will spend on a thermochill 120.1 will get you a VERY nice swiftech 120.2 maybe a 120.3.

swiftech make the best price/performance rads.

Interesting, i'm just cooling my CPU ... that makes me think i'd make place for a 120x2 rad anywhere i can, i'll try my best cause i think a 120x2 rad will ruin my backwards PCI connections, at least, Audigy4 Pro ones and i need them to play guitar on the PC so i'll investigate. Actually this BlackIce GTS120 is performing as i expected, but if you say 120.2 ... 120.2 will be better sure to go to Swiftech and not to HWLabs? their prices are also good and the level of performance is also in the level.

 

[EastCoasthandle]

1)
4)D4/D5 mcp650/mcp655 and all variants DO NOT require active cooling. i have had my loop running for months at a time without negative effect. the DDC series and mcp350/355 series however is reccomended to provide them with VENTILATION especially on the motor side. the use of petras gel is NOT reccomended as the pumps can generate enough heat to melt the gel thereby causing a short in the pump.

I am going to respectfully disagree with you here. I've had my pump for well over a year and know point blank that if there was no active cooling it WILL get hot after extended period of time. Even Gabe (the guy from Swiftech) even suggest that pump fail can happen do to heat. Therefore, it's implied to actively cool the pump.

Yes, one can normally expect somewhat less reliability from a pump that spins faster and heats up more (DDC2/MCP355).

Post

Not sure what kind of gel Petras sells

 

[[MD]Phantom]

Oke i am trying too understand this,

If you have a high restriction block, you need a high pressure pump.

The pressure is like this, 3,8 mHead for a DDC 1T.

But it has got nothing too do with the flow rate, like 400Liter/Hour

But how do you tell wich is a high restriction block and wich is not?.

And is a Laing DDC-1T a high pressure pump?.

 

[EastCoasthandle]

Oke i am trying too understand this,

If you have a high restriction block, you need a high pressure pump.

The pressure is like this, 3,8 mHead for a DDC 1T.

But it has got nothing too do with the flow rate, like 400Liter/Hour

But how do you tell wich is a high restriction block and wich is not?.

And is a Laing DDC-1T a high pressure pump?.

In most cases a decent review will tell which WB has the most pressure.

A Laing DDC-1T pump provides roughly 12.14ft of head. While a D5 provides 11ft of head. If memory serves me you need more at least 9ft of max head in order to deal with most blocks. But it's been awhile since I last researched that. That may have changed since I last researched that though (take with a grain of salt for now). I recall that a D5 (although it offers slightly lower max head then 350/355 with modded tops) does the job good enough for most water blocks.

 

[intel igent]

@ eastcoast : your link/s proves what? the heat generated by running a D4/D5 for ANY extended period of time DOES NOT require active cooling. please do not start myths and make false claims.

 

[EastCoasthandle]

@ eastcoast : your link/s proves what? the heat generated by running a D4/D5 for ANY extended period of time DOES NOT require active cooling. please do not start myths and make false claims.

No, I am not starting myths nor made any false claim. The link is self explanatory. And, because I had the pump for some time I can offer my personal experience with it. Besides, offering a bit of caution can go a long way when you water cool

However, lets look at the PDF of a D5 (for example):

The pump has an integrated over-temperature safety device that
shuts the pumps electronics off when reaching the temperature
limit of +203° F, as a complete shutdown of the pump may result
in adverse effects on a circulating system. Prior to this, the
electronics will reduce the pump speed in order to compensate
for heat gain. However, if the temperature continues to rise
(i.e. the fluid media is too hot), the pump will eventually turn off
completely. After cooling, the pump will restart automatically.

PDF


Lets look at a DDC-3.2 (for example):
A DDC-3.2 has a Max. system temperature 140° F. PDF

Basically, regardless of how the pump heats up, if you want it to operate at it's full potential it's best to keep it cool.