Nvidia "Redemption" and potential hardware requirements

[Searz]

I have learned a few things since my last thread.
1. Swearing is frowned upon here.
2. People like going off topic.
3. Reading is hard.

I hope to remedy the problems these things caused with this thread.
I would also like to publicly apologize to Frick, the guy I was unnecessarily rude to when he went off topic in the last thread: I'm sorry.

OFF TOPIC POSTS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. I will ask a mod to remove comments that are off topic.

Now, for the actual topic:
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Nvidia is rumored to be paying Red Hat to develop a new API to compete with AMD's Mantle API on Linux.
This new API is allegedly based on IOMMU technology.
"Redemption" is very much an inofficial name.

If anybody knows any more details on the topic please share. Is this rumor false or does it seem reasonable/belivable?


Now, this potentially creates a problem for me since I was planning on purchasing a 4670K to overclock, but as seen on the list below, there are no K CPUs with IOMMU support.
Here's a list of CPUs that support the technology and a few of the motherboards that do.

Asus' Z87 (and Z77) motherboards apparently have problems with IOMMU too, because they're using a different PCI controller than standard. This controller will allegedly cause problems for both Mantle and Redemption, while the K CPUs only cause problems for Redemption. (because the AMD GCN architecture has its own IOMMU pipeline and thus needs no CPU support)
This very same controller is also causing losses in performance according to the same source.
Is this true? Should Z87 Asus motherboards be avoided?

 

[W1zzard]

First time I hear that IOMMU is used with Mantle? You are confusing Mantle with HSA.

Look at the original presentation, I think the author at teksyndicate does not exactly understand what he's talking about and just did some guessing, based on seeing an NVIDIA logo in a Redhat presentation

 

[Searz]

First time I hear that IOMMU is used with Mantle? You are confusing Mantle with HSA

So IOMMU has nothing to do with Mantle? Do you know this? If so, how?
I'm very much a noob with lower level commands and protocols, so further explanation would be appreciated.

 

[W1zzard]

IOMMU these days is used for virtualization. So that you can map the VGA card's memory directly into the virtual machine and don't have to go through the host OS. This provides a performance advantage for virtual machines running 3D services, which seems to be exactly what NVIDIA is trying to achieve with RedHat on Linux.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/enterprise-virtualization.html
http://www.nvidia.com/content/vca/NV_GRID_VCA_DataSheet_HR.pdf

IOMMU (AMD term) on Intel is called VT-d: http://software.intel.com/en-us/art...ms-for-efficient-virtualization-of-io-devices

and it's not supported on Intel K processors, which makes it completely irrelevant for gaming

 

[Deleted member 24505]

IOMMU these days is used for virtualization. So that you can map the VGA card's memory directly into the virtual machine and don't have to go through the host OS. This provides a performance advantage for virtual machines running 3D services, which seems to be exactly what NVIDIA is trying to achieve with RedHat on Linux.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/enterprise-virtualization.html
http://www.nvidia.com/content/vca/NV_GRID_VCA_DataSheet_HR.pdf

IOMMU (AMD term) on Intel is called VT-d: http://software.intel.com/en-us/art...ms-for-efficient-virtualization-of-io-devices

and it's not supported on Intel K processors, which makes it completely irrelevant for gaming

Is there any particular reason it is not supported on the K's? Thanks

 

[Searz]

IOMMU these days is used for virtualization. So that you can map the VGA card's memory directly into the virtual machine and don't have to go through the host OS. This provides a performance advantage for virtual machines running 3D services, which seems to be exactly what NVIDIA is trying to achieve with RedHat on Linux.

I know, but is there a reason why this isn't or won't be used in 3D rendering applications outside of virtual machines?

and it's not supported on Intel K processors, which makes it completely irrelevant for gaming

How so? And I'd also like to second Tigger's question: is there a reason for this lack of support?

 

[W1zzard]

Intel says K processors are designed for gaming, not for virtualization. My guess is the underlying reason is that they don't want to endanger their Xeon server processor business. Nothing stops you from buying a 4770K, saving a ton of money, packing it full of RAM and running it as a server - as long as you don't run a lot of virtual machines

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Intel says K processors are designed for gaming, not for virtualization. My guess is the underlying reason is that they don't want to endanger their Xeon server processor business. Nothing stops you from buying a 4770K, saving a ton of money, packing it full of RAM and running it as a server - as long as you don't run a lot of virtual machines

Kind of understandable reason, thanks

 

[Searz]

Intel says K processors are designed for gaming, not for virtualization. My guess is the underlying reason is that they don't want to endanger their Xeon server processor business. Nothing stops you from buying a 4770K, saving a ton of money, packing it full of RAM and running it as a server - as long as you don't run a lot of virtual machines

Okay, thanks.
Only two more questions then and I'm done with this thread:
Is there a reason why IOMMU isn't or won't be used in 3D rendering applications outside of virtual machines?
And does the statement that 'Asus Z87 PCIe controller has problems with reduced framerates/performance' hold any weight?

 

[W1zzard]

Is there a reason why IOMMU isn't or won't be used in 3D rendering applications outside of virtual machines?

I can't think of anything, except for HSA maybe.

And does the statement that 'Asus' Z87 PCIe controller has problems with reduced framerates/performance' hold any weight?

I never heard of that or any such issues. Got a link for me with more substantial info?

Edit: I found some references in official MS statements that Xbox One is running virtualization on both the CPU and GPU, so maybe there could be a use for it after all. But still, no IOMMU on K processors, so not gonna happen on PC

 

[Searz]

I never heard of that or any such issues. Got a link for me with more substantial info?

I haven't found any more info, no. This was a statement by the guy that made the Nvidia Redemption thread. I'm skeptical of the truthfulness of the statement as such a thing would likely have been noticed by enthusiasts by now.

I found some references in official MS statements that Xbox One is running virtualization on both the CPU and GPU, so maybe there could be a use for it after all. But still, no IOMMU on K processors, so not gonna happen on PC

So essentially, it could happen, but probably won't, at least not for a good few years forward?

 

[qubit]

Intel says K processors are designed for gaming, not for virtualization. My guess is the underlying reason is that they don't want to endanger their Xeon server processor business. Nothing stops you from buying a 4770K, saving a ton of money, packing it full of RAM and running it as a server - as long as you don't run a lot of virtual machines

Usual tactic of the company making the customer fit around them, rather than the other way around.

It implies that there's no genuine performance difference between the Xeons (excepting more cache/cores) and the regular chips so this is a way to help keep prices high for so-called "server grade" processors.

 

[Searz]

Usual tactic of the company making the customer fit around them, rather than the other way around.

Yeah, kinda douchy


Also, after a few questions in the Nvidia Redemption thread on Tek Syndicate I'm really starting to doubt the truthfulness of his statements, at least the one about the Asus PCIe controllers. I've asked several times for links now. The first time I got a link to a test that didn't even use graphics cards (just integrated graphics). The second time he wanted to refer me to searching google or ddg and explicitly said that he didn't want to give me a link and that he didn't give a shit about what I thought.. It honestly seemed like he was trying to dodge my request for proof.
After that I took some time to try to dig up some benchmarks between H87 and Z87 motherboards. I found ONE benchmark that tried 3D mark and Metro 2033, both of which displayed no hints of the the things he stated. His mention of the 3.12 Kernel leads me to believe these problems might be specific to Linux(I thought they were hardware specific first), but he has mentioned nothing about that..
He has not responded to my third try after over a day.

Anyway, big thanks to Wiz for all the responses I got. This was very fruitful.

 

[Frick]

Intel says K processors are designed for gaming, not for virtualization. My guess is the underlying reason is that they don't want to endanger their Xeon server processor business. Nothing stops you from buying a 4770K, saving a ton of money, packing it full of RAM and running it as a server - as long as you don't run a lot of virtual machines

Usual tactic of the company making the customer fit around them, rather than the other way around.

It implies that there's no genuine performance difference between the Xeons (excepting more cache/cores) and the regular chips so this is a way to help keep prices high for so-called "server grade" processors.

On the other hand, non-K CPU's have all those fancy features. They just don't like overclocking anymore.