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2 Pumps in 1 one set up

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I prefer running two separate loops. Better for temps and if you need to remove a block or something from one loop, it doesn't affect the other.

If you really want lower CPU temps, at this point you're going to want to de-lid it.
 

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I prefer running two separate loops. Better for temps and if you need to remove a block or something from one loop, it doesn't affect the other.

If you really want lower CPU temps, at this point you're going to want to de-lid it.

I was going to say, time for delid.
 
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Not sure, ive never actually tested it myself. But with you and Aquinus theory, most if not all water cooled computers would be less than optimal......

I haven't seen many rigs that have radiators in between the blocks, if at all.
I posted my single loop at the start I HAVE tried many many combos and routes and I can definitely state as FACT if you put gpus straight after cpu water blocks you Will lower the max oc of the gpu same occours with any two components , ,that's why mine are in the order they are , and ive had dual loops and many combinations of parts, rad sizes and blocks
 

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I was going to say, time for delid.

What a brilliant idea to lower temperatures, been honest terrorize me a bit but lower temperatures always has a price, it's easy to do, should be done carefully, but now my questions are:
Have you done something like that, would you do it, which are the disadvantages of doing it?
 

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What a brilliant idea to lower temperatures, been honest terrorize me a bit but lower temperatures always has a price, it's easy to do, should be done carefully, but now my questions are:
Have you done something like that, would you do it, which are the disadvantages of doing it?

if you have a vice, hammer, and piece of wood it takes 5 minutes. I haven't done it, but I would if I had a better chip.

but right now you won't see much of a drop in temps with any change to your watercooling. Delid is the next step if you want better temps.

I posted my single loop at the start I HAVE tried many many combos and routes and I can definitely state as FACT if you put gpus straight after cpu water blocks you Will lower the max oc of the gpu same occours with any two components , ,that's why mine are in the order they are , and ive had dual loops and many combinations of parts, rad sizes and blocks

Okay! yet I have it going from CPU to GPU and have found that my max overclock is now limited by what the actual chip can do before temperatures are an issue.
 
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FireFox

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if you have a vice, hammer, and piece of wood it takes 5 minutes. I haven't done it, but I would if I had a better chip.

but right now you won't see much of a drop in temps with any change to your watercooling. Delid is the next step if you want better temps.
And which are the disadvantages?
 

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And which are the disadvantages?

Well obvious the warranty is voided. Even if you have have the Intel Tuning Plan.

If I were to delid, id buy another chip as back up if anything goes south.
 
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Everyone here apart from MX is tripping balls.

It doesn't matter where you put components in what order in your loop, the entire loop will reach an equilibrium in temperature regardless. The order MIGHT make a difference in max temps for the first 10 minutes from a cold boot. After that, there is literally no difference. I've built plenty of loops, small and large. One of which had 3 GPU's, 1 CPU, 240+240+480 rad, and a single 750lph pump. I had put components wherever they were simpler and easier to install. I did not put them in any mythological order to improve temps. That whole ideal is a fallacy. Make it easy for yourself, connect the components in the easiest order, and the best order so they are even easier to maintain.

Either put them in separate loops, or put in a T junction connector with some quick disconnects so you can drain your loop easily.
 

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Everyone here apart from MX is tripping balls.

It doesn't matter where you put components in what order in your loop, the entire loop will reach an equilibrium in temperature regardless. The order MIGHT make a difference in max temps for the first 10 minutes from a cold boot. After that, there is literally no difference. I've built plenty of loops, small and large. One of which had 3 GPU's, 1 CPU, 240+240+480 rad, and a single 750lph pump. I had put components wherever they were simpler and easier to install. I did not put them in any mythological order to improve temps. That whole ideal is a fallacy. Make it easy for yourself, connect the components in the easiest order, and the best order so they are even easier to maintain.

Either put them in separate loops, or put in a T junction connector with some quick disconnects so you can drain your loop easily.
Everything What you said it's right and I agree with you, but now we are talking about to delid the cpu and which are the advantages and disadvantages of doing such a process.
 
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Everything What you said it's right and I agree with you, but now we are talking about to delid the cpu and which are the advantages and disadvantages of doing such a process.

I delidded my 3570K and it reduced temps by almost 20 degrees. Unfortunately I had a crap chip for overclocking, so it required a tonne of voltage for a mere 4.4Ghz. Unfortunately all the watercooling in the world couldn't solve that.

I recommend CooLab ultra for delidding. I had to repaste my IHS every 6 months with MX-5.
 

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I delidded my 3570K and it reduced temps by almost 20 degrees. Unfortunately I had a crap chip for overclocking, so it required a tonne of voltage for a mere 4.4Ghz. Unfortunately all the watercooling in the world couldn't solve that.

I recommend CooLab ultra for delidding. I had to repaste my IHS every 6 months with MX-5.

If he has an EK Supremacy CPU block, he can get the Naked kit.

Take the retention bracket off the CPU socket so you just use the block as the pressure for the cpu to make good contact with the pins. Sounds like a bad idea, but a ton of people are doing it with awesome results.

And then for that you can pretty much use any thermal paste you want.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...on_Naked_Ivy.html?tl=g57c603s1910&id=EAQaKccu
 

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I delidded my 3570K and it reduced temps by almost 20 degrees. Unfortunately I had a crap chip for overclocking, so it required a tonne of voltage for a mere 4.4Ghz. Unfortunately all the watercooling in the world couldn't solve that.

I recommend CooLab ultra for delidding. I had to repaste my IHS every 6 months with MX-5.
That's means I am lucky, because I was able to run my cpu at 5.0Ghz with my actual watercooler getting 35 degrees in idle and 75/78 in full load with voltage 1.30
Why did you repaste every six months?
 

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If he has an EK Supremacy CPU block, he can get the Naked kit.

Take the retention bracket off the CPU socket so you just use the block as the pressure for the cpu to make good contact with the pins. Sounds like a bad idea, but a ton of people are doing it with awesome results.

And then for that you can pretty much use any thermal paste you want.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...on_Naked_Ivy.html?tl=g57c603s1910&id=EAQaKccu
My cpu block come already with that support.
 
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My water cooling methods work well and as I said on mine , worth noting though that my cpu is a dog and at 5ghz it was dumping a lot of heat into the loop and the max gpu clock limitation was with waterblock ed five series radeons , , even the heat from the first gpu in the loop altered tbe second cards max clock and I tried a rad between them , gueess what the result was 1050 on both gpus stable folding for three years , , without the rad gpu2 was 950 max, the throttling system gpu makers use now is what's partially hiding this plus lower tdp cpus.
 
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a dissadvantage to the hammer and vice method...
dont have confirmation of what went wrong "although i suspect the wood split which cased that damage on the right of the chip"
But the guy now has a 4770k key ring so its not all bad i guess



Prehaps its a good idea to make sure you have some tough wood if your going to be doing it.
I still think the blade method is better if you dont use a really thin blade.

also i agree where the rad in the loop is makes no difference. "the pump has to be below your reservoir and the 1st thing supplied with water though"
what does matter is how much radiator space you have.
But if you use multiple radiators you will usually find that in a single loop its just neater to go res pump rad component rad component rad res.
(thats in a 3 radiator set up)
that is simply because of mounting options.
with 2 radiators you would usually go res pump component rad component rad res.
but that really is down to mounting options and how clean you can make your loop look. the temps for the system will be the same once its up and running regardless of where you have the radiators (unless you have a really slow flow rate. then the water can hang about a lot longer. and be hotter when it gets to the next component. but that would be your flow rate/restiction issues not rad mounting)

and its also a balance of flow rate/pump size.
you do want the best flow rate you can get At the smalest pump size you can get it at..

just for shizz n giggles.
if you had 2 pumps that do 700L/h
one of them is 12v 13w and the other is 12v 20w. they both have the exact same head and flow rate and all that. The 20w pump would have your system running hotter than the 12w pump because it transfers more heat energy in to the water it is pumping..
 
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save everybody some grief don't go hitting your cpu with a hammer use a plastic razor and some thermal persuasion
iv said this before the hammer and vice method is stupid as hell and way more risk then what is actually required
a plastic razor won't cut the CPU or damage it unless you are stupid with it
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050P0PJQ/?tag=tec06d-20
all you need is a hair dryer and a couple of plastic razor's
heat the IHS with the hair dryer and then proceed to work the plastic razor under the IHS infact in most cases you can forgo the hairdryer
 
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save everybody some grief don't go hitting your cpu with a hammer use a plastic razor and some thermal persuasion
iv said this before the hammer and vice method is stupid as hell and way more risk then what is actually required
a plastic razor won't cut the CPU or damage it unless you are stupid with it
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050P0PJQ/?tag=tec06d-20
all you need is a hair dryer and a couple of plastic razor's
heat the IHS with the hair dryer and then proceed to work the plastic razor under the IHS infact in most cases you can forgo the hairdryer
This is the way I'd do it. The hammer method can be too unpredictable. You could easily whack a resistor or something. A razor, lots of time and patience is deffinitely the better method.
 

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O
This is the way I'd do it. The hammer method can be too unpredictable. You could easily whack a resistor or something. A razor, lots of time and patience is deffinitely the better method.
In fact I would never use a hammer
 
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save everybody some grief don't go hitting your cpu with a hammer use a plastic razor and some thermal persuasion
iv said this before the hammer and vice method is stupid as hell and way more risk then what is actually required
a plastic razor won't cut the CPU or damage it unless you are stupid with it
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050P0PJQ/?tag=tec06d-20
all you need is a hair dryer and a couple of plastic razor's
heat the IHS with the hair dryer and then proceed to work the plastic razor under the IHS infact in most cases you can forgo the hairdryer

I actually found the heat that emanated from my hands was enough to soften the outer putty substance on the IHS. I just constantly scored the outside of the IHS with a razor until it popped off. Eventually you can feel the give of the IHS putty losing strength. It's a far more relaxing process.
 

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Another great idea is buying the cheapest IVB chip you can get your hands on, like a Pentium or a Celeron so you can learn on something other than an i7. That way you also have a backup CPU in case something ever happens to the i7 if you're successful both times. At least if you do it wrong with a cheap CPU, you're not destroying a significantly more costly CPU.
 

OneMoar

There is Always Moar
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if you gotta have the IHS off and don't wanna spend 15M doing it use some Brake-Clean .. available at any auto-parts store it will soften the RTV and *shouldn't* harm the CPU
 

MxPhenom 216

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@LagunaX just posted in the Haswell Overclocking thread about his way of doing the vice method, hammerless.
 
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Flow rate with two elbows and tubing was roughly 50% higher vs. 1 pump.
WOW! I'm thinking of adding a second pump when (and if) I add a second radiator. It never occurred to me that buying just the pump will improve things that much! For some reason, I was thinking that already-flowing water would not be speeded up more. But putting them in series is like putting AA batteries in series to double the voltage (electrical pressure).

That's the kind of info I come here for. THANX!

-flk
 
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higher water temperature going into the GPU block will result in a lower Δt between the die and the block which means less heat is pulled away.
Ballocks! Ballocks, I say!

What you said is true, but feeding cooler water into the GPU causes less heat to be pumped out the back of the case. Here's why:

Putting the radiator between the hot devices means the water entering the radiator will be much cooler than if it had GPU heat, too. You talk about thermodynamics. Because heat flow rate increases with temperature, feeding cooler water into the radiator causes the total heat removed from the system to be less.

If you put the radiator after both hot devices, then yes, you pay the price of a warmer GPU. But what you're buying is not just a cooler CPU, but a MUCH cooler CPU. That is more important. You're pulling a lot of heat out of the CPU and putting just a little of it into the water flowing across the GPU.

CPU-wise, it looks good because you have the cooler directly after the CPU (largest Δt).

It's only the largest Δt between the intake and outflow of a hot device. But the user isn't interested in which device has the highest Δt; he cares about the Δt of the radiator. And that is maximized by putting it after the hot devices.

The loop is always in equilibrium because it's a closed system
Wrong again, Albert!

When you first turn the thing on, the CPU is hot and the water is cold. When it reaches equilibrium (which theoretically, it never actually does), the system is pulling much less heat from the CPU than it did at first.

Even if you diddle with the definitions of words to handwave that away, it's still only a closed system in terms of water leaking out. It's not closed thermodynamically because you're feeding bigtime energy into it via the pump. That's what drives the water, and the water is the heat transfer medium. You're also feeding heat into the system via electric power to the two chips and pumping into in the air, which is outside the system.

That's not equilibrium, dude. It's like saying that the water in a firehose doesn't move because the amount going in one end is the same as what sprays out the other one.

The only time your PC is in thermal equilibrium is when the whole thing has been switched off for while.
___________

If past is indeed prologue, instead of saying "Well, I'll be damned, I was wrong!" you'll get mad at me.

-faye kane ♀ joule thief
 

Aquinus

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Ballocks! Ballocks, I say!

What you said is true, but feeding cooler water into the GPU causes less heat to be pumped out the back of the case. Here's why:

Putting the radiator between the hot devices means the water entering the radiator will be much cooler than if it had GPU heat, too. You talk about thermodynamics. Because heat flow rate increases with temperature, feeding cooler water into the radiator causes the total heat removed from the system to be less.

If total heat removed decreased and heat generation remained the same you would have a run away thermal event. It's true that the average temperature of the loop climbs until it reaches a high enough temperature where the difference between the water temperature and air temperature would allow the heat to be moved out of the loop, but thermodynamics still applies inside the loop itself. The point is that if you keep heating already heated water, the difference in water temperature and GPU temperature are less, a smaller difference in temperature results in less heat transfer depending where the heat is coming from and where it is going.

If you put the radiator after both hot devices, then yes, you pay the price of a warmer GPU. But what you're buying is not just a cooler CPU, but a MUCH cooler CPU. That is more important. You're pulling a lot of heat out of the CPU and putting just a little of it into the water flowing across the GPU.

That's not realistic, CPUs tend to consume less power than GPUs which would make sense to balance the loop out. It depends on what you consider needs more cooling in your loop, but the most efficient way would be to ensure the widest temperature gradient between each stage (water block or rad.) As I said, reheating water absorbs less heat from whatever device you're pulling heat from, just as the ambient temperature being higher will result in overall higher temps.

It's only the largest Δt between the intake and outflow of a hot device. But the user isn't interested in which device has the highest Δt; he cares about the Δt of the radiator. And that is maximized by putting it after the hot devices.
You're not trying to get the largest Δt unless only one device is producing that heat, you're trying to maintain a reasonable max temperature, but as I said before, a smaller Δt will mean less heat transfer into and out of the loop.


Wrong again, Albert!

When you first turn the thing on, the CPU is hot and the water is cold. When it reaches equilibrium (which theoretically, it never actually does), the system is pulling much less heat from the CPU than it did at first.

Even if you diddle with the definitions of words to handwave that away, it's still only a closed system in terms of water leaking out. It's not closed thermodynamically because you're feeding bigtime energy into it via the pump. That's what drives the water, and the water is the heat transfer medium. You're also feeding heat into the system via electric power to the two chips and pumping into in the air, which is outside the system.

That's not equilibrium, dude. It's like saying that the water in a firehose doesn't move because the amount going in one end is the same as what sprays out the other one.

The only time your PC is in thermal equilibrium is when the whole thing has been switched off for while.
A fire horse isn't going in a loop nor is your example using it to transfer energy... your example is flawed. Liquid cooling is a loop, the water is moving in a circle. As far as the loop in concerned, the system in closed because you're never taking water out of the system except for maintenance. Also the pump is hardly adding heat to the system, the motor generates little heat in comparison to the CPU and GPU.

I should clarify my "equilibrium" thought though, when I say that I mean that the loop can't continuously hold more and more heat and that heat isn't being added or removed from the loop except at the blocks and rads, which theoretically when it's up to an operating temperature would ouput the same heat it takes in. However, as you said when you first turn the machine on, the water is air temperature, but when you turn the tower off the loop is also still heated. Despite the computer being turned off, there is still a temperature difference and heat will continue to be released albeit at a slower rate until the difference in temperature is nothing which only has to do with the medium temperature and its ability to transfer heat. If it's a closed system or not and when it's been running or not, it eventually acts as a closed loop in the sense that heat transfer become a zero sum between heat entering the loop and heat leaving the loop is at the same rate.

The simple fact is that cold water will absorb more heat than hot water and the recommendation I gave is if you care about cooling your CPU just as much as your GPU. While CPU temps might be a little higher, GPU temps will be lower because more heat can be moved from the GPU. I don't know about you, but I see GPUs being a lot more power hungry than CPUs, hence why I wouldn't do it the way you suggest.
 
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physics is simple, provided you remember every aspect of it..
with unlimited pressure restrictive passages pose no issues at all because you get the venturi effect.. (water passing through a narrower passage will have the same volume as the same water passing through a wider area.)
so 100l/m through a wide tube that gets narrower would still be 100l/m coming out the other end it would just be moving faster.
but with less pressure the restrictive areas will slow the flow rate of the whole loop. (its actaully the restrictions in crease the speed but lower the overall water pressure. but for this example i chose to say flow rate. figured id add this in before i get trolled for it)

its not a matter of 2 500/h pumps are 1000l/h when in series its simply they have more pressure so the restrictions do not slow it down so it can always achieve its 500l/h its still the same volume but it has higher pressure and a better head.
head is also determined by the total length of your run "not just the vertical" this can be combated by the position of your res though.

now back to the flow rate.
Physics clearly states that water traveling faster will be colder and can be at 0c "the tripple point of water" and not freeze.
it also clearly states that the colder said water is The more heat that can be transferred in to it easier.

So looking at that you would think well then i need a 12bar 6000l/h pump.
But you have the thermals of the pump to consider too. A BIG pump creates more heat and A lot of that heat is transferred in to your water.
So you have to figure out what is the smallest pump you can use to get the highest amount of pressure and flow rate.
a pump with a few watts more power may need to have a much higher flow rate to keep your system at the same temps as a smaller pump with lower flow rates. simply because of the heat transfer from the pump. (we are only talking 1-2c here though, maybe a bit more depending on the size of the pump)

to go back to the radiator placement.

if you have 3 radiators. and you went
res pump rad component rad component rad component res.
or you went
res pump rad rad rad component component component.

After you have warmed the system up. the water temperature when it gets back to the res would be the same in both situations.

your flow rate should be enough so that the water at the component is never fully saturated with heat even after passing 3 components. and still has plenty of cooling capabilities when it reaches the res.
Obviously if your flow rate was so slow that your water was in the block for long enough to get to 90c then if it ever made it to a second component it would not really cool it down any.
But if your flow rate was that bad your pump is either dead/dying or you have like 1 10l/h pump running through a very restrictive loop.


any way all thats just physics. and i may be missing some aspects out of it. but at very basics of it thats how it works.
 
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Knox 29, I'll throw my proverbial "2 cents" worth of "advice into this thread. Like you, I have a HAF 932 Adv case. You would think for as big as it is, it would be good for custom water cooling but in reality it is not. No problem with a 360 rad up top, but putting a 240 in front requires modding etc. I originally had a RX 360 at the top internally and a 120 rad internally to the rear without modding. It was real tight and I decided I wanted more rad space (obviously as described later I love extra rad space). My choices were to heavily mod the interior of the 932 or install a rad externally to the rear or buy a big case like the Corsair 900D.

I had just bought the 932 and didn't want to take a big loss. The top rear has punch outs for running hoses and I got over the fear of mounting the second rad externally (the XSPC mounting brackets sure helped).

I mounted a XSPC EX 360 in series with the internal RX 360. I mounted the EX 360 externally, vertically to the rear. Worked well.

Now for the fun, admittedly crazy rad part. Late last year I got the "itch" for a bigger rad (the curse of all custom water coolers) and spotted a new Watercool MO RA3-420 with fan enclosure and pedestal feet for sale on Ebay. I was hooked.

Made an offer which the buyer accepted and now I owned a "bruiser" external rad. Nine 140 mm fans,2 sets of Koolance quick release couplings and tons of new tubing later I was ready. I removed the external EX 360 and coupled the internal RX360 to the external MO RA3-420. I had always used a XSPC D5 bay/res. Again, due to the worry of "enough flow rate" I changed to a XSPC Twin D5 bay res where the pumps run in series.

From my experience, the single D5 was enough for the RX360/EX360 combo and even the RX360/MO RA3-420 combo but now there is no doubt the twin D5s in series helps the flow rate and in turn shaves a few degrees off the top end when stress testing, even with the MO RA3.

Bottom line is the HAF 932 case really doesn't have the room, internally, for a lot of rad space. If you want that much room, start with a Corsair 900D or spend the $$$ and buy a Caselabs case OR do what I did and mount an external rad ( if you can do it go 480).
 
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