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Global Warming & Climate Change Discussion

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TheMailMan78

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I'm sure that the fact that the sierra nevada having less and less snow pack every passing decade has nothing to do with it. I also know someone who grew up in Phoenix and I've had discussions about water with him and I can say that your statement is false. They waste is pretty bad which is why they won't have in a few decades.

Keep drinking the kool aid TMM. I won't stop you but, you're only kidding yourself.
Edit: I misread.

When you pump the majority of fresh water out of state into the ocean you have less water to make snow in the region. Its pretty simple. Also you are deflecting from the point.

A simple change in policy would fix California in less than 6 months. Again, bad government.
 

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That's due to population growth not policies. Also you are deflecting.
...and California isn't growing? That's a laughable statement.
When you pump the majority of fresh water out of state into the ocean you have less water to make snow. Its pretty simple. Also you are deflecting from the point.
I should run that by the meteorologist friend. I have a feeling that's the biggest load of BS I've heard in a long time.
A simple change in policy would fix California in less than 6 months. Again, bad government.
Calif. is far worse than 6 months away from recovery. They're really f**ked.
 

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...and California isn't growing? That's a laughable statement.
California isn't growing to the point it would be in a drought no. Its not.

...and California isn't growing? That's a laughable statement.

I should run that by the meteorologist friend. I have a feeling that's the biggest load of BS I've heard in a long time.

Calif. is far worse than 6 months away from recovery. They're really f**ked.
Run it by whoever you want. Do you think snow magically appears on top of mountains?
http://www.onthesnow.com/news/a/15171/ask-a-weatherman--where-does-snow-come-from-

Take away the moisture and guess what.....NO SNOW.
 

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Run it by whoever you want. Do you think snow magically appears on top of mountains?
Of course not, but water from oceans evaporates too which turns into what? Rain and snow... :confused:

Rivers don't flow upstream and turn into snow, water evaporates everywhere and that includes the ocean, not just fresh water.
 

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Of course not, but water from oceans evaporates too which turns into what? Rain and snow... :confused:

Rivers don't flow upstream and turn into snow, water evaporates everywhere and that includes the ocean, not just fresh water.
No water on the ground means no moisture rising. Its simple science.
 

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No water on the ground means no moisture rising. Its simple science.
Most of the moisture delivered to the western seaboard is from water evaporating off the ocean; consider winds and the jet stream. Your argument would describe the drought in the mid-west, not California.

It's not "simple science," you're over simplifying it... but go ahead and think you know more about weather than people who spend their lives studying it. ;)
 
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No water on the ground means no moisture rising. Its simple science.

And the Oceans

The total area of the Earth is approximately 510 million square kilometers and the oceans cover about 71 percent of the Earth's surface, which is about 360 million square kilometers. There are a total of 5 oceans, and they are the Arctic, Pacific, Atlantic, Indian, and the Antarctic Ocean.

water is evaporating and falling as rain and snow just not so much in the places it used to its falling elsewhere contray to popular belief there is more snow falling in parts of antartica than in the past while other parts are losing ice
 

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Tell that to midwestern states that are dying up their aquifers because of farming on a mass scale. You don't need to be liberal to be stupid about water management, that's my point. Look at Arizona and Phoenix. Plenty of Republicans and they'll be out of water before you know it.

I find your reasoning to be overly partisan and missing the point.
Yes, Nebraska is full of pivots powered by the Ogallala aquifer. Iowa is starting to see problems with falling water tables too but for a different reason: watering animals.


As for what this conversation has turned into, remember the mountains and California has a lot of them. It generally does not rain on the east side of mountains in the Rockies because they dropped their payload getting over them on the west side. If there's no water between mountain ranges, there will be virtually no rain dumped on the next mountain range.


The Antarctic ice shelf is growing; the Arctic ice shelf is shrinking. Despite that, I remember news headlines 10 years ago about ships being able to move freely around the Arctic today. Those statements are obviously false. In fact, a lot of the predictions about weather related to climate change have been false. Climate and weather models are too crappy to be remotely accurate. And remember, even the satellite-measured warming operates on a margin of error and, year over year, that margin could indicate the entire gamut from drastic cooling to drastic warming.
 
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I'm sure that the fact that the sierra nevada having less and less average snow pack every passing decade has nothing to do with it. I also know someone who grew up in Phoenix and I've had discussions about water with him and I can say that your statement is false. They waste it pretty bad which is why they won't have in a few decades. People in Pheonix still water their lawns despite the local shrubbery is anything but grass.

Keep drinking the kool aid TMM. I won't stop you but, you're only kidding yourself.

Yeah how about someone who lives here now? We have 4 years worth of Colorado river allowance stored underground. Ie if tomorrow the colorado was completely dry, lake mead? gone, lake havasu? gone, lake powell? gone we would still have 4 years of water providing we didn't cut back at all from our current usage.

This "friend" of yours is either made up or a complete idiot.

Global warming has nothing to do with the California situation. Not being able to supply half a state with 4.4 million acre feet a year has no relation to the climate and everything thing to do with crappy politics. That's not even taking into account the fact that the allotments were handed out during a time when rains were well above average and there aren't actually 16.7 million acre feet to divide up. Even if there were, California's running into trouble because they were overdrawing and taking more than the 4.4 million acre feet allotment. AZ made sure to take our full allotment and store what we don't use, but Colorado has been letting theirs run down into the lakes where CA has essentially been stealing it for years.

They have become dependent on that excess and now that it's not there to take they are realizing how f'd they are.
California supplies too much of the nations food. The state can't take the load anymore. So that avacado you're eating in NY = 74 gallons of CA water. CA has been exporting water in the form of food to states with more than enough of it while it has too little of its own. That lb of beef in NY? 1800 gallons of CA water.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM

There is an entire half of the country with 44 + inches of rain each year being supplied food from an area they gets less than 20. They don't send the equivalent water used back. Instead they get flooded. Whatever mismanagement has happened in the cities with consumers it pales in comparison to the agriculture deals made.

Is the climate and soil better? yes, do the states getting the food who have an abundance of water need to give some back for the amount used to make their food? YES!

We have oil pipelines, make water ones. DONE. (it's not like CA can't afford to pay for the water used either)

But no the US is only a nation when taking credit, never when dealing with issues. And CA is just eyeing our storage in AZ drooling failing to realize that there are states with crap tons of rain who are taking their water and give none back.
 

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Only way I'd agree to pipelines is if:
a) California pays for them...ALL OF IT.
b) the state it pulls water from determines how much goes into the pipeline.

If you think seriously about that idea, the only place with an abundance of water they aren't using is New England. A pipe over 2,600 miles long...is ridiculous. I suppose the Great Lakes states also have more water than they need but, even there, you're talking about 2000 miles of pipes.

It makes more sense to cut California off and funnel that water into the Midwest's aquifers where productivity is much higher at much lower costs.
 

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From what I've read California is fundamentally broken. Too much entitlement thinking going on there.
 

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From what I've read California is fundamentally broken. Too much entitlement thinking going on there.

when the big quake comes and most of California slides into the pacific the California problem will be solved.....:p
 

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Yeah how about someone who lives here now? We have 4 years worth of Colorado river allowance stored underground. Ie if tomorrow the colorado was completely dry, lake mead? gone, lake havasu? gone, lake powell? gone we would still have 4 years of water providing we didn't cut back at all from our current usage.
Are you joking? 4 years isn't much time. Simple fact is that Pheonix is unsustainable be it 4 years or 40 years. Sooner or later, it's going to completely dry up as more is being used than is being replenished.
This "friend" of yours is either made up or a complete idiot.
You don't see me throwing around insults. Do think think that helps your argument? :confused:

I'm not disagreeing with you but, don't kid yourself. Phoenix is just as f**ked as California is but, for different reasons.

Also global warming is a misnomer, it's global climate change. Not every place across the planet is getting less rain or hotter temperatures. Simple fact is what California is doing is unsustainable, I don't disagree with that. My point is that farmers would still pull water out of the ground for farming and there are always going to be companies and people who think their need for water is more important than someone else.
If you think seriously about that idea, the only place with an abundance of water they aren't using is New England.
For New Hampshire, it helps when most of the lakes are surrounded by mountains. We also get a ton of snow and rain that comes up the eastern seaboard so a lot of it stays here. New England is in a much different position than California, that's for sure. Also New England is anything but flat, it's not just piping you would need but, lot, and lots, of pumps. You would probably need to construct a lot of reserviors as well to hold it while it gets there. You can't just run a several thousand mile long pipe. :p
 

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Also global warming is a misnomer, it's global climate change.
Which is also a misnomer because if man never existed, the climate would still change. Case in point: all of that oil in the middle east strongly suggests that area was once covered in lush forest/jungle. It hasn't been that in over 10,000 years (when man first learned to document what he/she saw). There is absolutely nothing unnatural about climate changing. The only thing we can pin on man, at this point, is the relatively high levels of atmospheric CO2.
 

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There is absolutely nothing unnatural about climate changing.
I wouldn't call "climate change" a misnomer however, I tend to agree that it would occur with or without humanity. I think the question is how much we've been accelerating it and how much different it would be without humanity. I would find it hard to believe that humanity doesn't play any role however I don't think we're the sole reason for it. I do think it has more to do than with just CO2, though. The earth is a rather complex system and I suspect we still don't understand a good chunk of it.
 

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I think the question is how much we've been accelerating it and how much different it would be without humanity.
I suspect not much on both accounts. Most credible sources on climate aren't sounding the alarm for today, they're sounding it for the future. They warn about reducing CO2 output today so it doesn't exceed a threshold in the future.
 
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Are you joking? 4 years isn't much time. Simple fact is that Pheonix is unsustainable be it 4 years or 40 years. Sooner or later, it's going to completely dry up as more is being used than is being replenished.

You don't see me throwing around insults. Do think think that helps your argument? :confused:

I'm not disagreeing with you but, don't kid yourself. Phoenix is just as f**ked as California is but, for different reasons.

Also global warming is a misnomer, it's global climate change. Not every place across the planet is getting less rain or hotter temperatures. Simple fact is what California is doing is unsustainable, I don't disagree with that. My point is that farmers would still pull water out of the ground for farming and there are always going to be companies and people who think their need for water is more important than someone else.

For New Hampshire, it helps when most of the lakes are surrounded by mountains. We also get a ton of snow and rain that comes up the eastern seaboard so a lot of it stays here. New England is in a much different position than California, that's for sure. Also New England is anything but flat, it's not just piping you would need but, lot, and lots, of pumps. You would probably need to construct a lot of reserviors as well to hold it while it gets there. You can't just run a several thousand mile long pipe. :p

Um yeah, you fail at analysis. I still see no evidence you weren't simply lying about your "friend" to make a point. Whereas many members can vouch for me when I say I'm from AZ. Erocker's even shipped stuff to me here. If you find that accusation insulting it's meant to be. Don't lie and claim you know all about where I live, I take offense to it.

In case you missed it, CA is out of water now, well really 2 years ago (save for Lake Tahoe which as big as it is, is only a short term fix). AZ won't be out of water until exactly 4 years after the Colorado completely dries up assuming we don't curtail our usage by 1 drop. It hasn't yet btw and isn't going to for some time to come. The most that will happen is Lake Mead will drop below 1025ft and we will see our Colorado allotment drop by 480,000 acre feet (from 2.8 million to 2.32 million acre feet) . That will affect CAP farmers but not residential. Nevada also sees a drop which is pretty ridiculous when you see how little they get as it is.

While were on this subject Farmers in CA have priority draw due to grandfathered water rights. CA is trying to change that but its the way things are. Farmers in AZ (excluding Wilcox, AZ) get CAP water. That is Central Arizona Project and their access to it expires in 2030. Not sure what they're going to do about that but its not my problem. So no we are nowhere near as screwed as CA. AZ has always understood it was a desert and we took precautions in the 80's to assure that ground pumping was limited as well as made many other concessions to ensure we could endure long droughts. Wilcox, AZ again is the exception but they did that to themselves. CA was in denial and has ignored the problem. I lived there in the 80's and 90's (moved to AZ in 96) when we had droughts (milder of course) and they threw on the low flow toilet and shower head requirements and called it good. No ground pumping restrictions, no long term plans, just the low flows aimed at those who use such a small portion of the states water.

CA made its bed by ignoring the problem. Much like the nation is ignoring it now. They don't realize what will happen to the price and supply of food if CA farming goes belly up.

AZ on the other hand hasn't been hit anywhere near as bad by the drought, our rain hasn't been too far below average and the White Mountains (which flow into the White, Black, and then Salt Rivers) haven't been as badly affected as the Sierra Nevadas. Population in the valley has grown but we've planned for it. That's why right now someone in CA is being fined for watering their lawn while someone in AZ is actively pumping reclaimed grey water irrigation onto his, or using a drip system to water his desert landscape. You are talking about 2 very different cultures here.
 

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Congress has kowtowed to California since before California even applied for statehood. There's not much California asked for and didn't receive throughout its history, the rest of the country be damned. Examples:
-Nevada's and Arizona's water? They got it.
-The mountain ranges that have known precious metal claims? You bet.
-High speed railroad between very distant cities? Of course.
-"You're state is too big, we need to make it smaller" to which California replied, "like hell you will."
-I believe it's the only state that policies its borders for "illegal" produce.
-USA adopts most environmental standards California adopts first.
-Truck trailers often now have those panels on its belly because trailers that don't have those cannot enter California.

The list is literally endless. USA still kowtows to California. I wouldn't be surprised if California demands access to AZ's water reserves and Congress forces AZ to hand it over on a gold platter.
 
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^Oh yeah we're aware CA is after it. Not sure when that will all go down but it will likely set the precedent going forward. If CA gets access to AZ's reserves look for a renegotiation of the Colorado allotments. I guarantee CO doesn't get anywhere near as much in that circumstance (which again would be pretty ironic considering it's the Colorado river lol).

If CA starts chipping away at our storage I could see a strong push against alfalfa and cotton farming in AZ as well as a restriction on golf courses and sod farming. Consumers will likely get the low flows as well but we've know that was coming anyways.

In the end it will be another band aid rather than an actual fix, CA still won't have enough water and it will put pressure on AZ, NV, CO, and NM who all have their own issues to deal with. I still say create more reservoirs in states with more rainfall and build pipelines to the west. But that's likely fantasy land at this point. The east won't care until it hits them directly in the wallet and in the mouth.
 
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They cite:
Institutionalizing Delay
Doubt Is Their Product
Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming
Merchants of Doubt
The Climate War: True Believers, Power Brokers, and the Fight to Save the Earth
The Climate Deception Dossiers
...they don't seem very academic.


Pretty sure the Citizens United v. F.E.C. decision guts Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act:
Citizens United v. F.E.C. said:
First Amendment protection extends to corporations.
http://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=clevstlrev
Political Gangsters said:
Like any criminal statute, the racketeering statute can be broken down to specific essential elements that must be present to constitute the crime. Two main elements must be present to form a racketeering action. First, the actor must obstruct, delay, or affect commerce. And second, the actor must do this through robbery or extortion.
...
An obvious obstruction or effect on commerce would be a restriction upon the sale of goods or the transport of goods, but the courts in the past have required less action than that.
...
"the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right."
I think RICO applies more to these scientists than the organizations they accuse. Case in point: try to buy an incandescent light bulb today or gasoline that isn't tainted with ethanol. As for extortion, what is the "Carbon Tax?" I don't think Shukla et. al. can prove or even suggest the lobbying the accused has allegedly done can even be considered extortion. These professors-turned-activists don't have a leg to stand on it when it comes to RICO.
 
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Which is also a misnomer because if man never existed, the climate would still change. Case in point: all of that oil in the middle east strongly suggests that area was once covered in lush forest/jungle. It hasn't been that in over 10,000 years (when man first learned to document what he/she saw). There is absolutely nothing unnatural about climate changing. The only thing we can pin on man, at this point, is the relatively high levels of atmospheric CO2.
 

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