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ISRT refuses to see my Samsung SM951 128GB M.2 drive

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Yeah, I know IRST it's limited to 64GB but SM951 doesn't come in smaller size so I figured I'll have the remaining 64GB as overprovisioning, extending the lifetime of the drive.

I currently regularly switch between 3 modern games (NS2:Combat, NS2 and CoD Black Ops 2) and they are all cached. When I change my gaming preference, games will re-cache by themselves. By using a dedicated install SSD I'd have to shuffle data around by hand. How is that better, I don't know... I mean, when cache is decently populated, cache/disk hit ratio is usually over 80% during regular PC usage. This means 80% of all read commands were performed from SSD and only 20% from actual HDD. While having 2TB of data storage available. Just a reminder, 2TB SSD costs over 700€. I've spent like 60€ for a cache that essentially gave me the same performance for everyday tasks. But hey, what do I know, right?

I might give PrimoCache a try. eBoostr is nice because it also allows exclusion of certain filetypes so they don't get populated in the cache like music, videos and other stuff that's sequential anyway and you don't really benefit from it other than wasting your cache space. But I think 120GB cache is causing problems to this app which essentially never was designed for this kind of use (even though it worked amazingly well with a 32GB cache). It's 30 bucks, I can deal with that.

@Pill Monster
This just shows you don't know what HDD+SSD hybrid cache is and how it works. And everyone is always so god damn smart about "how much it sucks" and they never actually tried it. PrimoCache is a block level caching software. It doesn't cache in RAM, it caches to SSD and then reads from it when apps request data. If data is cached of course. These caches are persistent and "survive" across system reboots. Meaning once it's populated, it gives significant boost for extended periods of time and is not just a one shot thing that makes low yields...
 
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@Pill Monster
This just shows you don't know what HDD+SSD hybrid cache is and how it works. And everyone is always so god damn smart about "how much it sucks" and they never actually tried it. PrimoCache is a block level caching software. It doesn't cache in RAM, it caches to SSD and then reads from it when apps request data. If data is cached of course. These caches are persistent and "survive" across system reboots. Meaning once it's populated, it gives significant boost for extended periods of time and is not just a one shot thing that makes low yields...
Bullshit, nothing in RAM survives after a reboot, that's how cache is cleared.

If you wanna get condescending, so can I. You have no idea how Windows Memory Management works, read Russunovich's Winternals then come back and we'll talk about it...

Firstly Primo Cache/Fancy Cache and caching on Hybrid SSD's have nothing to with each other.
Primo Cache is software which loads users files from any drive into RAM, just like Superfetch does,

It can be used on any OS regardless of the type of drive, in fact the the slower the better. It does not cache files on the drive.

The difference between Primo Cache and OS file caching is Primo preloads whatever u want whereas Windows caches when the file a acessed..

Hybrid SSD's are mechanical HDD's with a small flash memory cache. ISRT caches a few prefetch files on the Hybrid's Non Volatile cache which allows persistence over a reboot. That is all.

An SSD is basically the same as the cache on a Hybrid Drive, but a million times bigger, so it should be clear that Primo Cache doesn't help where SSD's are concerned.


With windows caching u have to acess the file before it's cached.

All other files are cached in RAM if you think otherwise you're only fooling youself, and being fooled.


Hell it says this right on Intel's site...
SSD caching reduces the time it takes to load commonly used programs, but there is a limit to the benefits. If the data is already stored in the computer's RAM, then SSD caching does not improve load times at all since the computer's RAM is much faster than even the fastest SSD drive currently on the market. The main advantage of SSD cache comes into play when booting into Windows or when a program is run for the first time after a reboot or power off.
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/How-it-Works-Intel-SSD-Caching-148/
 
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Oh my freaking god, the ignorance is just monumental. But hey, I have no clue despite the fact that I've just setup a hybrid HDD+SSD system using PrimoCache. I guess I'm just imagining things...

SAMSUNG_CACHE.png

L1 cache means system RAM (which I'm not using at all that's why it says 0 under Free Cache), L2 cache is permanent cache which is using SSD drive (dedicated 100GB). Cache tasks on the left are partitions designated to be cached, the L2 right panel is the drive dedicated to SSD caching. Still so determined that I'm wrong and you're right? Sorry, but I'm using SSD caching for long enough to know my shit.
 
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Sorry, I searched some stuff I thought usefull for the M2 stick issues. Didn't know the party is now about caching ; )
SSD Guides on ROG site (were usefull for me when I bought of those)
All the options: http://rog.asus.com/308552014/label...a-and-sata-express-the-differences-explained/
Small differences: http://rog.asus.com/313352014/labels/guides/buying-an-m-2-ssd-how-to-tell-which-is-which/

Btw: I just checked my X99-S manual and all the time it speaks of M.2 it never says which mode it is. But the product website states the same as yours: "PCIE SSD".
 
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Oh my freaking god, the ignorance is just monumental. But hey, I have no clue despite the fact that I've just setup a hybrid HDD+SSD system using PrimoCache. I guess I'm just imagining things...

View attachment 69534
L1 cache means system RAM (which I'm not using at all that's why it says 0 under Free Cache), L2 cache is permanent cache which is using SSD drive (dedicated 100GB). Cache tasks on the left are partitions designated to be cached, the L2 right panel is the drive dedicated to SSD caching. Still so determined that I'm wrong and you're right? Sorry, but I'm using SSD caching for long enough to know my shit.
Jesus man L1 is not system RAM, it's CPU cache. So yes I guess that makes you wrong. Happy?
I'd blame the software.




So there's no doubt what windows actually does, here is the proof.
This a shot of my system after rebooting and opening up PanzerCorps then closing it again. The game is not running. You see the cached amount im TM? Well that's 700MB of files from Panzer Corps plus a few system files..

The shot below is everything currently sitting in RAM, mapped files are files on the drive which have been accessed or used by a process and cached. This process here happens to be Panzer Corps.

 
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Bullshit, nothing in RAM survives after a reboot, that's how cache is cleared.

You should look at hos SSD caching works. SSDs are not volatile, so the cache data is persistent across reboots.

Primo Cache is software which loads users files from any drive into RAM, just like Superfetch does

PimoCache uses either the RAM or an SSD, it has the option for both. Superfetch doesn't help with things like game loading, because games are usually considered too big to cache, so Superfetch ignores them. IRST and Primocache use SSDs to cache large things, and they do it in a way that is persistant. Superfetch won't help with boot times, for example, IRST and PrimoCache will.

Jesus man L1 is not system RAM, it's CPU cache. So yes I guess that makes you wrong. Happy?

OMG, why comment on something if you have no clue what you are talking about? Primocache is a cache hierarchy. In Primocache L1 cache is RAM and L2 cache is SSD. L1 and L2 and L3 does not just have to refer to the CPU cache, it just stands for Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3. It is used in a lot of different ways, in many different cache hierarchies. GPUs have L1 and L2 cache too. Anything with a cache generally uses L1 and L2 terms. Even the SSHDs from Seagate and WD use an L1 and L2 cache. The standard 64MB cache that is normally on all drives is considered L1 and the 8GB SSD is considered the L2.
 
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You should look at hos SSD caching works. SSDs are not volatile, so the cache data is persistent across reboots.
You should take some reading lessons before posting again.

Nowhere did I say SSD's were volatile I said RAM is volatile, I also said clearly SSD's were NOT Volatile, so stop talking shit.

nothing in RAM survives after a reboot, that's how cache is cleared.
ISRT caches a few prefetch files on the Hybrid's Non Volatile cache which allows persistence over a reboot.




PimoCache uses either the RAM or an SSD, it has the option for both.
Yes, and? You're repeating what I said already.

Superfetch doesn't help with things like game loading, because games are usually considered too big to cache, so Superfetch ignores them.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
Anything can be cached into RAM the only limit is how much RAM you have, Superfetch can cache as much as it wants., so can Primo, that's why Primo has a 64GB limit.

IRST and Primocache use SSDs to cache large things, and they do it in a way that is persistant. Superfetch won't help with boot times, for example, IRST and PrimoCache will.
No, Primo does not make anything persistent, no software does.
Persistence depends on the type of cache memory, not the algorythms used.
You obviously think anything Primo caches into RAM is persistent, wrong again.


I never said Superfetch helps with boot times either, I said Primo Cache works like Superfetch in that it caches files into RAM, which it does. I never denied it could also cache to Hybrid flash so stop fabricating stuff.



OMG, why comment on something if you have no clue what you are talking about? Primocache is a cache hierarchy. In Primocache L1 cache is RAM and L2 cache is SSD. L1 and L2 and L3 does not just have to refer to the CPU cache, it just stands for Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3. It is used in a lot of different ways, in many different cache hierarchies. GPUs have L1 and L2 cache too. Anything with a cache generally uses L1 and L2 terms. Even the SSHDs from Seagate and WD use an L1 and L2 cache. The standard 64MB cache that is normally on all drives is considered L1 and the 8GB SSD is considered the L2.
Piss off mate, you're completely full of it...... read below, and welcome to my ignore list.




 
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You are arguing with newtekie using fun parts of the quote feature. No offense mate but did you even read his posts? I thought it was pretty clear he was talking about SSDs the entire time he never once confused persistence and ram or vice versa. You are literally correcting him on things he was not wrong about. You are simply wording it a different way and quoting him out of context.

The real issue here is WHY are you doing this? Threads like this provide a real value to the community and if you have a problem with a member (which I am going to imply given the ridiculous level of targeting that is oh so apparent in this thread) it would be more beneficial to report him or PM him or simply not reply. It takes away from the focus and the information. Not to mention its tiresome. Even if you were right it would have made sense a long time ago to simply put your post into thoughtful bullet points and leave it for the OP to decide whos judgement to trust instead of shitting all over a thread that could be beneficial to members seeking such information.

For shame for literally taking away from this community and thread in literally every possible way in the last few posts.
 

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You guys are arguing in circles. Simple fact is that @newtekie1 and @RejZoR are right about this one. PrimoCache appears to use a kernel mode driver to intercept I/O requests from the disk. This means at this point, Windows file cache has already been missed and is going forward to get the data from the disk. Primo is simply caching to the SSD and utilizing it when the I/O requests fall through to the disk. It sits between Windows file cache and your spinning disk as a kernel mode driver. It's not a replacement for Windows file cache, it's just another level below it.

@Pill Monster : I would stop fighting this one as you're not only wrong, you're becoming belligerent. I would rather you concede that you misunderstood what they were talking about and leave it at that because your posts clearly indicate that you're missing the point that they're making.

Simple fact is that the cache levels in PrimoCache are not the same thing as CPU cache. It's just confusing because Primo used the same names which only makes matters worse. I would actually read up on the very thing you're saying it isn't...

https://www.romexsoftware.com/en-us/primo-cache/term-l2cache.html
 
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You are arguing with newtekie using fun parts of the quote feature. No offense mate but did you even read his posts? I thought it was pretty clear he was talking about SSDs the entire time he never once confused persistence and ram or vice versa. You are literally correcting him on things he was not wrong about. You are simply wording it a different way and quoting him out of context.
No, I'm having 2 discussions with 2 people about different types of caching. Primo with new Tekkie and Hybrid with Rezjor... This topic stemmed from another thread with Newtekkie which is why it prob appears out of context. If anyone is quoting out of context it's NewTekkie.

I'm jumping out here anyway.. waste of time.
 
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No, I'm having 2 discussions with 2 people about different types of caching. Primo with new Tekkie and Hybrid with Rezjor... This topic stemmed from another thread with Newtekkie which is why it prob appears out of context. If anyone is quoting out of context it's NewTekkie.

I'm jumping out here anyway.. waste of time.

You're wrong man and your going about the right way to get yourself an infraction, go and actually READ the replies to you and you will see that you are talking about something completely different to the OP... good move walking away cause I can't see it ending good for you if you carry on down the road you are going... the threads been completely derailed because of you.
 

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You should take some reading lessons before posting again.

Nowhere did I say SSD's were volatile I said RAM is volatile, I also said clearly SSD's were NOT Volatile, so stop talking shit.

I should take reading leasons? You can't even read how Primocache works.

Yes, and? You're repeating what I said already.

No, you seem to think Pimocache only use RAM.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
Anything can be cached into RAM the only limit is how much RAM you have, Superfetch can cache as much as it wants., so can Primo, that's why Primo has a 64GB limit.

Superfetch is limited to a portion of your RAM, at most 50%. Most people don't have the 128GB of RAM required to cache all the textures files for GTA:V, forget GTA:V and Fallout4.

Also, again you fail at reading, Primocache has no 64GB limit. That is a IRST limit. Try doing at least a little research on the topic.

No, Primo does not make anything persistent, no software does.
Persistence depends on the type of cache memory, not the algorythms used.
You obviously think anything Primo caches into RAM is persistent, wrong again.

I never said things cached into RAM are persistent. Primocache uses SSD/s! What is hard to understand about this? SSDs are not volatile, therefor the cache is persistent. So, yes, there is software that makes the cache persistent. Both IRST and Primocache do.

I never said Superfetch helps with boot times either, I said Primo Cache works like Superfetch in that it caches files into RAM, which it does. I never denied it could also cache to Hybrid flash so stop fabricating stuff.

No, I said that the alternatives COULD. That is the benefit of using them, and why Superfetch isn't as good.

You actually did deny that Primocache could cache to SSDs creating a hybrid setup. Remember when you said Primocache, or any software, couldn't make any persistent cache? Yeah, that is denying Primocache can use SSDs.

Persistence depends on the type of cache memory. - You Said that, and it is correct.
I never denied it could also cache to Hybrid flash. - You said that again, though it caches to SSD, not exactly hybrid flash, but close enough.
Primo does not make anything persistent, no software does. - You again. But see how this statement is directly contradicted by the previous 2...

Can you see how this makes it clear you have no clue what your talking about?

Piss off mate, you're completely full of it...... read below, and welcome to my ignore list.





So, you put up the cache heirachy for the Intel Haswell processor. Good for you. Do you believe that the only thing that uses cache is the CPU? I don't believe anyone could be that dense.
 

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@newtekie1 Thanks for mentioning PrimoCache which I'd not heard of.

While I've got a fast SSD as my boot drive, all my data resides on a 4TB WD Green, including my Steam games, so that obviously means slow loading times, which is a pain that this utility should help to alleviate. I know that Steam now also allows individual games to be stored in different places, so I could instead put a game I'm currently playing such as Black Ops 3, onto the SSD and enjoy max performance. Decisions! Decisions! :)
 

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@newtekie1 Thanks for mentioning PrimoCache which I'd not heard of.

While I've got a fast SSD as my boot drive, all my data resides on a 4TB WD Green, including my Steam games, so that obviously means slow loading times, which is a pain that this utility should help to alleviate. I know that Steam now also allows individual games to be stored in different places, so I could instead put a game I'm currently playing such as Black Ops 3, onto the SSD and enjoy max performance. Decisions! Decisions! :)

I actually got it so I could put a 128GB cache on my server's RAID-5. It uses WD Red, which are 5400RPM drives(WD doesn't officially list the RPM, but most agree it is 5400RPM). The RAID-5 is fine for sequential read/write, easily capable of maxing out my gigabit network connection. But when I start doing multiple read/writes at the same time, really hammering the array with random data, it starts to choke. The 128GB cache really helps.
 
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You guys are arguing in circles. Simple fact is that @newtekie1 and @RejZoR are right about this one. PrimoCache appears to use a kernel mode driver to intercept I/O requests from the disk. This means at this point, Windows file cache has already been missed and is going forward to get the data from the disk. Primo is simply caching to the SSD and utilizing it when the I/O requests fall through to the disk. It sits between Windows file cache and your spinning disk as a kernel mode driver. It's not a replacement for Windows file cache, it's just another level below it.

@Pill Monster : I would stop fighting this one as you're not only wrong, you're becoming belligerent. I would rather you concede that you misunderstood what they were talking about and leave it at that because your posts clearly indicate that you're missing the point that they're making.

Simple fact is that the cache levels in PrimoCache are not the same thing as CPU cache. It's just confusing because Primo used the same names which only makes matters worse. I would actually read up on the very thing you're saying it isn't...

https://www.romexsoftware.com/en-us/primo-cache/term-l2cache.html
My words are getting seriously twisted here.....that doesn't make me wrong mate. That is what makes me really annoyed.

I never said CPU cache is the only type of cache, and you know I don't believe that anyway because you and had this discussion, remember I told u CPU cache is not the only type of cache. My point was in the hierarchy L1 is CPU cache....

Primo Cache is still a waste of time and money. Anyway I'm dropping it so lets all move on.....;)
 
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Maybe we (I really mean I) should reread the original post. Does his SSD stick match or not his mobo? :p
 
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SSD (Samsung SM951) works fine, I did that much research. I didn't expect absolute lack of support for it for the Intel Smart Response Technology however because it's going through PCIe lane and not SATA. Meaning I'm not able to pair it with the HDD to boost performance through caching. I'm sure it could be done and it would make sense because of insane speeds these M.2 drives can output, but at the moment it just doesn't work and you have to use a software solution. It may just as well happen that Intel will wait for so long that SSD caching won't make much sense anymore (it does now, but once high capacity SSD's get cheaper, it won't make any sense anymore). For now, I still believe it does.

I was using eBoostr before and it worked fine, but it has some quirks with avast! where it just caches stuff that I don't need just because avast! scanned the files and eBoostr adds it tot he SSD cache. It gets thrown out eventually, but it's unnecessary work done on SSD. PrimoCache is an interesting alternative. Has it's own quirks like not being immune to defragmentation since it works on block level and I can't exclude certain files from being cached like in eBoostr, but for now it seems to work fine, without any system hangs. Will test with it some more...
 

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I dont know why you would want to waste a m.2 and the performance they hold by using it to cache a HDD. Caching is dead it was only around to satisfy the consumer that couldn't afford to buy high capacity SSDs in the early days.
 

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My words are getting seriously twisted here.....that doesn't make me wrong mate. That is what makes me really annoyed.

I never said CPU cache is the only type of cache, and you know I don't believe that anyway because you and had this discussion, remember I told u CPU cache is not the only type of cache. My point was in the hierarchy L1 is CPU cache....

Primo Cache is still a waste of time and money. Anyway I'm dropping it so lets all move on.....;)

Again, you seem to think that the CPU cache hierarchy is the only cache hierarchy. I've never seen someone directly contradict themselves so many times in such short statements.

First you say you never said CPU cache is the only type of cache(which I don't believe you ever did actually), then on the EXACT SAME LINE OF TEXT you said L1 is CPU cache...

Sorry, you're 100% wrong. In the Primocache heirachy L1 is system RAM, and L2 is SSD. No one is twisting your words, you're just full of crap.
 
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Sorry, you're 100% wrong. In the Primocache heirachy L1 is system RAM, and L2 is SSD. No one is twisting your words, you're just full of crap.
My point was in the hierarchy L1 is CPU cache....
@Pill Monster : Read this before posting again, please. The terms newtekie are using are specific to this software. It's not talking about any cache level except for its own. I'm getting really tired of repeating myself...
https://www.romexsoftware.com/en-us/primo-cache/term-l2cache.html
PrimoCache said:
This topic gives a detailed explanation of level-2 cache. As you may know, PrimoCache implements a two-level caching architecture consisting of level-1 cache and level-2 cache. Level-1 cache is composed of physical memory while level-2 typically resides on a solid-state drive or flash drive. The purpose of level-2 cache is to increase the read speed of traditional mechanical hard disks.
 
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Again, you seem to think that the CPU cache hierarchy is the only cache hierarchy. I've never seen someone directly contradict themselves so many times in such short statements.
I would appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about what I think, and if you're going to accuse me of contradicting myself, at least have the decency to quote me.

There is only 1 Cache Hierarchy. The "Hierarchy" is every level of cache on the platform, it always starts with CPU which is Level 1 (L1) and steps down from there, L1, L2, L3, L4, RAM, Drive Cache and so on, like a chain. Fastest to slowest.

First you say you say you never said CPU cache is the only type of cache(which I don't believe you ever did actually), then on the EXACT SAME LINE OF TEXT you said L1 is CPU cache...
Of course CPU cache isn't the only type of cache, I'm not that stupid. Ask Aquinus about the discussion he and I had a while back.... Ironically my argument to him was that exact point....that there is more than one type of cache.

Sorry, you're 100% wrong. In the Primocache heirachy L1 is system RAM, and L2 is SSD. No one is twisting your words, you're just full of crap.

OK, so I'm 100% wrong because of what u see in Primo Cache?
If that's the argument you're standing on, I was wrong about you twisting my words, it's more a case of you not understanding the OS fundamentals. And I don't mean that to sound condescending in any way at all.

As I said above, L1 is CPU cache, there is no other type of L1. It doesn't matter what you see in PrimoCache, it's not correct, particularly since the drive is connected as part of a platform.

Anyone who knows Windows will tell you caching software is snake oil - to quote what someone posted earlier :"caching is for noobs". I could show you Primo Cache is wrong from reliable sources like Microsoft, but I'm not sure you'd be convinced.

Feel free to reply, however I'm not taking this discussion any further with you....sorry. :)
 
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Aquinus

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I would appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about what I think, and if you're going to accuse me of contradicting myself, at least have the decency to quote me.

There is only 1 Cache Hierarchy. The "Hierarchy" is every level of cache on the platform, it always starts with CPU which is Level 1 (L1) and steps down from there, L1, L2, L3, L4, RAM, Drive Cache and so on, like a chain. Fastest to slowest.

Of course CPU cache isn't the only type of cache, I'm not that stupid. Ask Aquinus about the discussion he and I had a while back.... Ironically my argument to him was that exact point....that there is more than one type of cache.



OK, so I'm 100% wrong because of what u see in Primo Cache?
If that's the argument you're standing on, I was wrong about you twisting my words, it's more a case of you not understanding the OS fundamentals. And I don't mean that to sound condescending in any way at all.

As I said above, L1 is CPU cache, there is no other type of L1. It doesn't matter what you see in PrimoCache, it's not correct, particularly since the drive is connected as part of a platform.

Anyone who knows Windows will tell you caching software is snake oil - to quote what someone posted earlier :"caching is for noobs". I could show you Primo Cache is wrong from reliable sources like Microsoft, but I'm not sure you'd be convinced.

Feel free to reply, however I'm not taking this discussion any further with you....sorry. :)
Once again, you're not reading or doing any research on the software that you're talking about. Your ignorance is beyond astonishing and your back-peddling is pissing me off. I have a lot of things I want to say right now, but they're all going to land me infractions. Simple fact is that your ignorance doesn't make you right and the point you have been making has no proof and is merely anecdotal. :slap:
 

newtekie1

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I would appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about what I think, and if you're going to accuse me of contradicting myself, at least have the decency to quote me.
I did quote you, I quoted your entire post, including the line of text where the second half directly contradicts the first. Perhaps it is time you go back to grade school and learn to read, though it probably wouldn't help much since you seem completely incapable of comprehending new information.

There is only 1 Cache Hierarchy.
I never said CPU cache is the only type of cache
Are you really that dense. Literally one post apart from you, completely contradicting yourself. No one can be this dumb...

I will say it one last time. There are multiple cache hierarchies in a computer system. The storage hierarchy is separate from the CPU. The normal cache on the drive(even SSDs have this) is the L1 cache in the storage hierarchy, the 8GB MLC SSD is consider the L2. In the Primocache hierarchy system RAM is L1 and SSD/Flash is L2. In the GPU hierarchy there is an L1 and often an L2 on the GPU, and the VRAM is the next level after that, usually L3.
OK, so I'm 100% wrong because of what u see in Primo Cache?
As I said above, L1 is CPU cache, there is no other type of L1.
No, you are 100% wrong because you are still arguing that the CPU is the only thing that can have an L1 cache.

OMG, what is that?! Is that a GPU block diagram? Is that L1 and L2 cache listed there?! How is that possible? Pill Monster says that can't happen! The CPU is the only thing that can have an L1 cache. He knows all! There is no way he could possible be wrong! This breaks the laws of computing! The world is going to end!!!!1!!!:rolleyes:
 
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Arguing how PrimoCache doesn't use SSD and I'm enjoying blazing fast game load times using SSD. I don't think I need or miss ISRT anymore. Plus it gives me some more insight what's happening with the cache and from checking the specs, PrimoCache even supports TRIM, something that I know isn't supported in ISRT.
 
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