• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Global Warming & Climate Change Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
3,516 (0.51/day)
System Name Red Matter 2
Processor Ryzen 5600X
Motherboard X470 Gaming Pro Carbon
Cooling Water is Masterliquid 240 Pro
Memory GeiL EVO X 3600mhz 32g also G.Skill Ripjaw series 5 4x8 3600mhz as backup lol
Video Card(s) Gigabyte Gaming Radeon RX 6800
Storage EVO 860. Rocket Q M.2 SSD WD Blue M.2 SSD Seagate Firecuda 2tb storage.
Display(s) ASUS ROG Swift PG32VQ
Case Phantek P400 Glass
Audio Device(s) EVGA NU Audio
Power Supply EVGA G3 850
Mouse Roccat Military/ Razer Deathadder V2
Keyboard Razer Chroma
Software W10
FYI, that video says "we are gonna get more intense storms, more droughts and floods" twice and that's false.
Trying to convince a Warmest? Good luck!
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.63/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
They'd have to argue with GFDL--the NOAA research laboratory responsible for oceanic and atmospheric modeling.
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
854 (0.17/day)
Trying to convince a Warmest? Good luck!

When I understood that you were calling me a "warmest" I loled, truly. I didn't know there was an *ist word for it. lol. Funny. I am not an *ist anything concerning global warming. I just trust the thousands of scientists and agree that we are the largest cause of the climate change. If they were to start to to find their experiments wrong or the trend reversing or anything like that I wouldn't hold on to the belief like the religious. If I am an *ist anything it's a truthist. If the NOAA study is vetted and scientists vouch for the numbers I would listen.
 

Easy Rhino

Linux Advocate
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
15,444 (2.43/day)
Location
Mid-Atlantic
System Name Desktop
Processor i5 13600KF
Motherboard AsRock B760M Steel Legend Wifi
Cooling Noctua NH-U9S
Memory 4x 16 Gb Gskill S5 DDR5 @6000
Video Card(s) Gigabyte Gaming OC 6750 XT 12GB
Storage WD_BLACK 4TB SN850x
Display(s) Gigabye M32U
Case Corsair Carbide 400C
Audio Device(s) On Board
Power Supply EVGA Supernova 650 P2
Mouse MX Master 3s
Keyboard Logitech G915 Wireless Clicky
Software The Matrix
When I understood that you were calling me a "warmest" I loled, truly. I didn't know there was an *ist word for it. lol. Funny. I am not an *ist anything concerning global warming. I just trust the thousands of scientists and agree that we are the largest cause of the climate change. If they were to start to to find their experiments wrong or the trend reversing or anything like that I wouldn't hold on to the belief like the religious. If I am an *ist anything it's a truthist. If the NOAA study is vetted and scientists vouch for the numbers I would listen.

Can people stop repeating the notion that scientists agree on climate change? The "thousands" of scientists mark is nonsense. The large majority of them are not climate scientists and of those they have not had access to the primary sources. They simply read the review and agreed with it.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.63/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Science is not a democracy: numbers do not matter; confirmation of hypothesis through testing and observation does.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,657 (0.56/day)
Science is not a democracy: numbers do not matter; confirmation of hypothesis through testing and observation does.

I'm back here again, because you can't really let this end. At the same time, you say some of the dumbest things I have ever seen. They aren't dumb because they are wrong, they're dumb because they contradict what you said earlier.

I agree with the above quote. 97% of the reviewed abstracts, based upon harvested data, came to the conclusion that climate change exists and is human driven. You can find the summary here: https://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-advanced.htm. Note a few things. This isn't about opinions, but about the peer reviewed conclusions of studies. The people reviewing the reviews were not paid, and each review was subsequently review by another individual to eliminate personal biases. Finally, the reviewers aren't from one location, so any cultural bias towards a specific conclusion was mitigated. The hypothesis was tested, and the data points were abstracts from other studies. This is reviewing the data for trends to establish whether a hypothesis was accurate, or in short terms "the scientific process." You'll note that personal biases were isolated, and reasonably accounted for, thus removing any reasonable assertion that this was about the opinion of any individual author or study.


Your response to this has historically been that you'll wait for the results of new model X, or new technique Y before you come to a conclusion. That's bullshit. I can't put this any less bluntly. Science isn't a debate or a democracy, but what it does is cull through its results and determine which are statistical outliers. 12000 peer reviewed papers represents a sufficient enough test sample to work with. Of those 12000 papers, less than 480 come to the conclusion that either climate change isn't happening or it isn't human driven. We're going to use the "or" condition here to give you the widest margin of error.

Tell me, what does one more study provide? One study would represent 0.008% uncertainty, if it said climate change fell into the "or" category.

Your entire earlier arguments were literally hinging upon one more result. A result which may or may not be an outlier, but either way it doesn't represent a statistically significant amount of information to disprove the given hypothesis that humans are causing climate change. So I ask you, are you actually backing your conclusions on science at this point? The answer is an unequivocal no. You are a creationist. Your god is shrinking into narrower and narrower margins, but instead of simply saying that it's your unsubstantiated belief you want to argue about how the great flood could theoretically happen if there was an ice shield above the Earth. That sort of duplicity is poisonous. Your continued pedaling of it is a disgrace to you and anyone who agrees with your thoughts.



If you were an objective scientist, you'd back out of this debate right now. You aren't. You've proven that you have an ideological bend, and you're going to keep the discussion going until you can grasp at some straw which will make your ideology somehow concrete. You've literally spent pages waffling on the topic, and you follow up all of that with the above statement. You have literally told us your stance, and followed it up with a statement which proves your ideology inconsistent. This is what is so frustrating. You're trying to act as if you can use science, because you play by its rules. Whenever asked to follow those rules you say the jury is still out, because there's still a study going on somewhere. I'd find this a contemptible stance if this was the first time you had it. At this point, I'm only coming back here to call you out on the hypocrisy because somebody might believe the crap you're selling is science.

If you want to be an idealog, be an idealog. If you want to be a scientist, be a scientist. Bastardizing science to support your ideology, despite the fact that it disproves it, is unacceptable. I'll continue to call you out if you keep doing this. Putting off the discussion because tests are still running, when a comically large amount of the results have already disproven your hypothesis, retards everyone. I can't abide willful ignorance.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.63/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
We've already been over Skeptical Science and, specifically, Cook's study.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,657 (0.56/day)
We've already been over Skeptical Science and, specifically, Cook's study.

Small words.

You dismissed the results out of hand, because the person behind the study had ideological biases which you did not agree with. This was allowed because you decided to change your argument to wanting one more study to be done.

I dismiss your point out of hand, because your model will be based upon data that was harvested previously.


Tell me, you claim impartiality, yet have a defined ideology. You claim science supports you, yet cannot find a study supporting your conclusion without there being at least 8 others which counter it. You claim that further models are necessary. At what point is there sufficient proof? You've made one of the greatest slippery slope arguments on the planet. Just one more study will prove everything. But, why is that study different? What happens if the study is run again, and the opposite conclusion is reached? What happens to all that other data, that you've decided doesn't matter?

In short, you don't want an answer. You want this to go on until people either can't continue the fight, or you get the results you want. If that's your science, call me a religious zealot.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.63/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Doing a database search and publishing your result constitutes nothing more than what it is. The terms used injects a huge amount of bias and other than the fact the search is being performed upon scientific articles, the entire concept of what Cook did serves no purpose other than to politicize and polarize the real research lying underneath which is extremely detailed and nuanced as all scientific research papers are.

Additionally, research is usually conducted where funds are directed. Research on climate has overwhelmingly concentrated on carbon dioxide. The database (thusly search) is biased at its core. As previously stated (numerous times), there are many fields of study that are lagging way behind that play a role whose signifance is presently unknown. There is no doubt a few of these articles included in the database that Cook may or may have not found because they hit or missed his keywords.

I'd argue all articles that cite Cook should be reviewed for bias if not considered political propaganda at face value. I can think of no reason why any value-added scientific article would have need nor want to cite Cook in the first place.

Going further, the way Cook's paper is framed (which you didn't fall into that trap, kudos) is as extrapolating the database search to mean "climate scientists agree with" which is patently false. Pew Research and others have surveyed the actual scientists and not their papers and they conclude 87-90% (pending on membership, working Ph. D., or climate scientist) of scientists agree "climate change is mostly due to human activity." 7-10% is a pretty far off for a supposedly scientific article (speaking of Cook, of course), don't you think?

But I've already said all of this and, for whatever reason, you either choose to ignore it or dismiss it. If that doesn't satisfy you, well, I don't care.

You want this to go on until people either can't continue the fight, or you get the results you want. If that's your science, call me a religious zealot.
I "want" what "to go on?"
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,657 (0.56/day)
Doing a database search and publishing your result constitutes nothing more than what it is. The terms used injects a huge amount of bias and other than the fact the search is being performed upon scientific articles, the entire concept of what Cook did serves no purpose other than to politicize and polarize the real research lying underneath which is extremely detailed and nuanced as all scientific research papers are.

Additionally, research is usually conducted where funds are directed. Research on climate has overwhelmingly concentrated on carbon dioxide. The database (thusly search) is biased at its core. As previously stated (numerous times), there are many fields of study that are lagging way behind that play a role whose signifance is presently unknown. There is no doubt a few of these articles included in the database that Cook may or may have not found because they hit or missed his keywords.

I'd argue all articles that cite Cook should be reviewed for bias if not considered political propaganda at face value. I can think of no reason why any value-added scientific article would have need nor want to cite Cook in the first place.

Going further, the way Cook's paper is framed (which you didn't fall into that trap, kudos) is as extrapolating the database search to mean "climate scientists agree with" which is patently false. Pew Research and others have surveyed the actual scientists and not their papers and they conclude 87-90% (pending on membership, working Ph. D., or climate scientist) of scientists agree "climate change is mostly due to human activity." 7-10% is a pretty far off for a supposedly scientific article (speaking of Cook, of course), don't you think?

But I've already said all of this and, for whatever reason, you either choose to ignore it or dismiss it. If that doesn't satisfy you, well, I don't care.


I "want" what "to go on?"

Holy crap, I get it now.

You never seem to fully read anything. You argue dogma. When confronted with demonstrable facts you argue nuance in order to obfuscate the truth. You're arguing god of the margins.


It took me far too long to see this, but your response to that tire of the future thread has finally let me put two and two together. Between utterly missing what was presented, and then spending no effort to critically deconstruct an idea, you recklessly come to a conclusion grounded by nothing.


First off, the terminology search wasn't Cook's study. You're actually citing an earlier piece, and the search term was "global warming." The fact that you couldn't even be bothered to read an abstract points to utterly poor follow through. The Cook piece did search the abstracts for the key words global warming and climate change. It parsed out 12000 of these reports, and then the abstracts were reviewed. From reading the abstracts, they determined which of three states the paper had.
1) Climate change is happening, humans cause it
2) Climate change isn't happening
3) Climate change is happening, humans aren't the cause
Of those papers, less than 480 fall into categories 2 and 3. This was a word search to pull their sample pool, then a review and re-review process to determine what the abstract actually implied. Again, you've discounted this, based presumably off the piece done by James Powell (an utterly garbage puff piece, that has already been discounted). You've never really answered that particular question, and based upon your defense you seem to be conflating the two.


Why call this god of the margins? I've seen this before. When presented with a contradiction you'll find one source that either disagrees, or doesn't agree exactly, and as there isn't 100% consensus you posit there must not be a viable conclusion. When asked to review the big picture, you need to reject it because your ideology isn't compatible with the vast majority of the data. Hell, at this point your entire argument is to wait for a bigger supercomputer to model climate. Said supercomputer will be tested for accuracy based upon...drum roll please...exactly what data? If it's the information we've harvested to date, then you have to have one massive case of cognitive dissonance to both trust the data and reject the conclusions based upon it. If you say they'll model a decade, then check accuracy against actual results it'll be years before you have enough data to be reasonably sure that you're isolated any outlier data. What you're actually asking for is a few years for the computer, another few years to test and refine models, and then after a couple of decades we can come to some conclusion.

That's the god of the margins. God must exist, so there must be proof. I can delay the science disproving god, simply by asking for more tests. I can change my definition of God, so that nobody can disprove it. There are things that currently cannot be explained, so my God must be behind them.


Jesus, I feel stupid. I should have seen this earlier. You'll continue to argue no matter what information is provided. No amount of proof will ever be enough. No model or data will ever be acceptable, because you never have to come to a conclusion if you just keep calling for more studies. It's an argument against a freaking congressman. It's easier to kick the can on down the line than it is to actually do something.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.63/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,657 (0.56/day)
It was the Cook study:
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...F866609C9F91F33E782.c3.iopscience.cld.iop.org

Read the first sentence of the abstract. Step #1 was to exclude all articles that did not contain those two very specific terms in the abstract and both terms are extremely biased. So of course it's going to come back with a near 100% agreement because that's all he searched for.

?

Search terms that would also fall under that broad category.

"Conclusively proving that climate change is a statistical anomaly, rather than an actual effect."
"Modeling how climate change influences the life cycle of the sea anemone."
"Global warming and other fear mongering; measuring the psychological response to reporting in the media."
"Global warming conclusively linked to solar cycle."

All four of these titles would fall into the 480 articles not conclusively linking humans as a causation for global warming. That's rather clearly spelled out in their abstract. You again seem to be mistaking the earlier article's clear bias with the new one.


Why search these two terms? It's simple, scientific abstracts are designed to catch the attention of a reader. As such, they use trendy words. Put simply, your abstract sells yourself for future work. A trendier, or more hot-button issue can propel you into a huge grant and continued studies. The huge amount of studies created in a decade would take as long to individually catalog and analyze, with the vast majority yielding no direct results for your study. How then could you effectively parse through a mountain of work, knowing that trending topics will always be referenced in an abstract? Oh, that's right. You parse through the mountain by finding popular key words about your topic, which by nature hold no bias without context.

How about this, you define two other terms that should be used. Remember, the terms must magically have no bias as per your claims. The terms have to produce a significant amount of abstracts. In this particular case asking for just 75% of what was cited isn't an unreasonable qualifier. Remember that you also can't appreciably increase the number of abstracts. Each one has to be read, reviewed, and added to a listing by two volunteers (with any discrepancies being addressed by another volunteer). Now, you've also got to make sure that your team has any inherent biases accounted for. Let's start throwing out terms that cannot be used, and why:
1) Temperature - Too broad, as it covers everything from metallurgy to gemography
2) Precipitation - Again, too broad.
3) Warming - Too broad, and inherently biased based upon your criteria
4) Climate - This is interesting, but likely a problem as biological organisms generally have their locations, and thus preferred climate, information logged.
....


Do you get it yet? You're still using a god of the margins argument. You don't agree with their search terms, but you haven't proposed your own. Hell, you haven't even explained why the terms are inherently biased without any provided context. The reason Cook's study has validity is the fact that he didn't just ctrl-f for a result, he setup an abstract review to verify the conclusions. You haven't acknowledged the work provided to find reviewers that were both not motivated by profit, and whose inherent biases were negated by blind reviews and varying background. You're throwing out a huge amount of work because you don't like the search terms based on the bias you assign them. Find your margins elsewhere, real science has already bitch-slapped your conclusion into last week. The only people still arguing the point either want to argue that the minutia somehow invalidates the conclusions because of the bias they inject, or they are arguing a dogma that cannot be wrong lest it shatter the carefully constructed illusion they have made for themselves.


Of course, you're more than welcome to prove otherwise. As you're so fond to point out, do some science on your own if your hypothesis disagrees with the conclusions drawn. As yet you've only cited that you think there's a bias in the process, but not proven a damn thing is incorrect or biased.

Edit:
Too much work for you to do all of this? That's absolutely fine. I have a simpler logical question which you can answer. Maintaining output gasses is an absolute drain on cars. The reverse pressure, and required temperature of the catalytic converter drags down fuel efficiency substantially. The automotive industry has money, and they have a huge incentive to prove CO2 emissions aren't related too climate change. If they could do that, they could save billions by having catalytic converters removed from cars. Given financial incentives such as that, why aren't they commissioning reviews of abstract like this. For a less than $100,000 invested they stand to make billions. Car manufacturers aren't stupid, so why are they not disproving the vast conspiracy you are implying?

If it's acceptable to make any accusation, and thereby negate your opposition without any backing, your computer models are absolute crap because they don't accurately start by modeling the variations in gravitation experienced across the surface of the planet. Gravitation will influence the properties of the fluids in the atmosphere, thereby making any models which wants a resolution of a few hundred miles completely inaccurate without the millions of data points for varying gravitation accounted for.

Of course, I've done more to prove why your assumptions are accurate than you've felt necessary. You say there's an inherent bias, without any context. I provide a concrete variable that is unaccounted for. Tell me, can you science? Are you just going to continue arguing about your margins? Are you going to explain why words somehow have bias, when put into a demonstrable context they can mean the exact opposite of what you seem to imply? I'll not be holding my breath. Creationists never managed to do that. They never gave an answer as to why the science was broken. I'm just going to sit here for a few moments, and bask in the glorious stupidity of the Creation Museum. A "museum" where dinosaurs and cave men (not neanderthals, cave men) lived side-by-side like a rejected Flintstones cartoon.


Tell me how you're any different than that. No, demonstrate you are superior. Hiding behind one study here and another there is not proof. It's proof that you can win by modifying the rules on the fly. It's proof you're willing to drag out the discussion until you win because your opponents are exhausted simply negating the crazy you perpetuate. This is why the god of the margins arguments "work." You can never be wrong if you change the margins. It's a great tactic...for the adolescent and people whose dogmatic beliefs cannot be shattered, lest they have to square a broken dogma with reality.






Allow me to make this simple, by posing a hypothetical situation. You feel threatened, presumably by me because of this exchange. To prove your point, you search out the terms in all of my responses. You find one with the terms "kill," "you," and "in your sleep." You argue to the judge that because it is in one post, it's a blatant threat. He reviews the quote, and it reads: "There are few things which kill me more than arguing against an irrational player. All you get is a response that forces your hand, and requires giving up your objectivity to fighting them on their own level. It seems like the only way to escape that labor is in your sleep, where at least their chatter can be silenced momentarily." The judge asks you if you are absolutely serious, and responds that context matters. The words, on their own, aren't biased. Arguing that they are means you're either a fool, or shouldn't be trusted with anything sharper than a soup spoon.
 
Last edited:

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.63/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
How about this, you define two other terms that should be used.
Just "climate" would suffice in my opinion. Yes, you'll get a mountain of documents which a separate program should be written for to categorize each document from those that are irrelevent (e.g. your biological example) to those that explicitly use political terms (e.g. "global warming" and "global cooling"). If I were to improve upon Cook's methods, I think I would focus on the documents that fall between those two extremes. The program would separate them including emphisizing the sentence(s) in which "climate" was used. If there's a reasonable number of documents, those are the ones the volunteers would have to read and categorize. If there was still a mountain, I'd further improve the algorithm to attempt to single out those that discuss climate on a large scale (at least continental or ocean scale). That should be sufficient to get to the meet which volunteers would read and categorize.


Then again, I would argue this is pointless. It's not applicable science. It's an analysis of published climate documents. What is applicable science is knowing that CO2 and CH4 has risen drastically over the past century and generally what caused it. Talk is cheap. We should do something about it and the only economic and environmental solution is advancements in energy technology.

Even your average hill billy that believes the world is flat, that man never walked on the moon, and that atmospheric CO2 levels have not changed would buy a hydrogen powered vehicle if fuel was cents on the dollar compared to gasoline. The two (economic and environment) are not intrinsically opposed. That is where the future lies, not this unproductive bickering.


Given financial incentives such as that, why aren't they commissioning reviews of abstract like this. For a less than $100,000 invested they stand to make billions. Car manufacturers aren't stupid, so why are they not disproving the vast conspiracy you are implying?
...volumes could be written on this but I think I can briefly sum up the jist of it:

Broadly: Only about 50% of the public (according to Pew Research) believe global warming is caused by human activity. Public perception plus the work of lobbyists have completely stopped envrionmental legislative action in the US Congress. What regulations have been put in place come from the EPA acting under the direction of Obama which, when necessary (e.g. the coal power plant restrictions) have been fought in court and won because the EPA illegally expanded its powers to act. In terms of protecting their investments, they clearly have already succeeded.

Narrowly: The EPA's emissions requirements on vehicles are inside of constraints the automative industry can work with. Further, those requirements apply uniformily accross all participants in the market so why fight it when all of the costs are passed on to the consumer? I know one individual that works inside the automotive industry (I forget the name, his position, and who he worked for--it was in Truck Trend years ago) said that they'll fight the government if/when the government makes unreasonable demands. For the time being, it is cheaper to comply than to fight it. And remember, they've been able to not only clean up emissions but improve fuel economy because the burn is more thorough. They can sell improved fuel economy especially when fuel is ~$4/gallon. Tying back to my previous point, this improvement in emissions and fuel economy has been brought about through advancements in technology (electronics, materials, and machining).
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
3,516 (0.51/day)
System Name Red Matter 2
Processor Ryzen 5600X
Motherboard X470 Gaming Pro Carbon
Cooling Water is Masterliquid 240 Pro
Memory GeiL EVO X 3600mhz 32g also G.Skill Ripjaw series 5 4x8 3600mhz as backup lol
Video Card(s) Gigabyte Gaming Radeon RX 6800
Storage EVO 860. Rocket Q M.2 SSD WD Blue M.2 SSD Seagate Firecuda 2tb storage.
Display(s) ASUS ROG Swift PG32VQ
Case Phantek P400 Glass
Audio Device(s) EVGA NU Audio
Power Supply EVGA G3 850
Mouse Roccat Military/ Razer Deathadder V2
Keyboard Razer Chroma
Software W10
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
3,516 (0.51/day)
System Name Red Matter 2
Processor Ryzen 5600X
Motherboard X470 Gaming Pro Carbon
Cooling Water is Masterliquid 240 Pro
Memory GeiL EVO X 3600mhz 32g also G.Skill Ripjaw series 5 4x8 3600mhz as backup lol
Video Card(s) Gigabyte Gaming Radeon RX 6800
Storage EVO 860. Rocket Q M.2 SSD WD Blue M.2 SSD Seagate Firecuda 2tb storage.
Display(s) ASUS ROG Swift PG32VQ
Case Phantek P400 Glass
Audio Device(s) EVGA NU Audio
Power Supply EVGA G3 850
Mouse Roccat Military/ Razer Deathadder V2
Keyboard Razer Chroma
Software W10

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.63/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
A man after my heart.
Tom Yulsman said:
I carry on in this beat because I believe my job as a journalist is to bear witness to events, to help explain them, and to put them in proper context. I’m sure that this is also what motivates Eric Holthaus, a journalist who has done excellent work.

But if in bearing witness as journalists our testimony becomes exaggerated or even inaccurate, then the credibility of journalism in general suffers.

In addition to being a journalist, I’m also a professor of journalism. So I think I have a particular responsibility to focus on issues like this. That’s why I decided to take a detailed look at this one story, and to try to set the record straight — as a cautionary tale for all journalists who struggle to cover this complex topic.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,657 (0.56/day)
Just "climate" would suffice in my opinion. Yes, you'll get a mountain of documents which a separate program should be written for to categorize each document from those that are irrelevent (e.g. your biological example) to those that explicitly use political terms (e.g. "global warming" and "global cooling"). If I were to improve upon Cook's methods, I think I would focus on the documents that fall between those two extremes. The program would separate them including emphisizing the sentence(s) in which "climate" was used. If there's a reasonable number of documents, those are the ones the volunteers would have to read and categorize. If there was still a mountain, I'd further improve the algorithm to attempt to single out those that discuss climate on a large scale (at least continental or ocean scale). That should be sufficient to get to the meet which volunteers would read and categorize.


Then again, I would argue this is pointless. It's not applicable science. It's an analysis of published climate documents. What is applicable science is knowing that CO2 and CH4 has risen drastically over the past century and generally what caused it. Talk is cheap. We should do something about it and the only economic and environmental solution is advancements in energy technology.

Even your average hill billy that believes the world is flat, that man never walked on the moon, and that atmospheric CO2 levels have not changed would buy a hydrogen powered vehicle if fuel was cents on the dollar compared to gasoline. The two (economic and environment) are not intrinsically opposed. That is where the future lies, not this unproductive bickering.



...volumes could be written on this but I think I can briefly sum up the jist of it:

Broadly: Only about 50% of the public (according to Pew Research) believe global warming is caused by human activity. Public perception plus the work of lobbyists have completely stopped envrionmental legislative action in the US Congress. What regulations have been put in place come from the EPA acting under the direction of Obama which, when necessary (e.g. the coal power plant restrictions) have been fought in court and won because the EPA illegally expanded its powers to act. In terms of protecting their investments, they clearly have already succeeded.

Narrowly: The EPA's emissions requirements on vehicles are inside of constraints the automative industry can work with. Further, those requirements apply uniformily accross all participants in the market so why fight it when all of the costs are passed on to the consumer? I know one individual that works inside the automotive industry (I forget the name, his position, and who he worked for--it was in Truck Trend years ago) said that they'll fight the government if/when the government makes unreasonable demands. For the time being, it is cheaper to comply than to fight it. And remember, they've been able to not only clean up emissions but improve fuel economy because the burn is more thorough. They can sell improved fuel economy especially when fuel is ~$4/gallon. Tying back to my previous point, this improvement in emissions and fuel economy has been brought about through advancements in technology (electronics, materials, and machining).

?

You say that climate change may or may not exist. You say that may may or may not be responsible. You hinge all of this argument on a new model, that will be taking in old data as a source of initial settings to help develop a predictive algorithm. You're, by very definition, arguing the margins here. More frightening, you say "science isn't a democracy," and follow it up with "most Americans don't believe in climate change according to a Pew study." Do you really want such duplicity, or is this another "honest" mistake? I'll say this, your argument is face palmingly stupid with regards to congress. The EPA was given some pretty sweeping powers a long time ago, and enacting restrictions on emissions is largely something that they can do without the direct approval of congress. If you'd like a brief synopsis I'd suggest Forbes' piece: http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/18/ep...ngress-opinions-contributors-allen-lewis.html


You follow this up with a diatribe about what emissions you care about. This is after you went off on a ran about hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in a different thread. You criticized the fact that they'd still emit water vapor, which is a green house gas. You made said criticism with the statement that "changing one green house gas for another is not a solution." All the while failing to understand that complete combustion of hydrocarbons produced CO2 and H2O already.

You criticize word choices, because in your magical world a word has bias. In your magical reality there's no case in which a person, seeking funding for research, would use a word in a context which can either be for or against your own preconceived notions. The evidence to the contrary not withstanding, you want work to be done again, without ever adequately explaining why your injected bias is reasonable doubt. When confronted you say that you know better than anybody else, but are unwilling to actually stand and defend your position by doing a damn thing but cite individual studies.



All of this is galling, and absolute bullshit. What you then go on to do is insulting.

You don't understand chemistry, or combustion physics. Your patently moronic statements about the process demonstrate this without a doubt. I'm going to take the time to educate you, but god knows you'll find a selective interpretation that agrees with you crap somehow.

A combustion engine sucks in cool dense air, and adds particulates of fuel. It compresses this mixture, and then ignites the fuel. The combustion reaction produces thermal energy, water, carbon dioxide, and radical particles (usually hydroxyls because complete combustion cannot occur in the time allowed). The compressed gas dramatically increases its pressure, because of suddenly having more particles and heating up (that old ideal gas law, PV=nRT). This wall pressure is transferred into linear motion by a piston, that is pushed along its travel length because the gasses exert more force on the piston. The hot gasses are then vented into the atmosphere. The efficiency at which they are expelled is determined by the pressure and temperature of the exhaust vent and its surroundings. In order to remove the radical particles, which generally decompose into dangerous green house gasses, we pass the exhaust gas through a catalytic converter. Said converter uses a reversible chemical process and a catalyst to convert radicals into CO2 and the like. Of course, for that to work the catalyst has to be heated and pressurized, meaning the engine's venting of exhaust gasses is hampered. This means the intake air is less dense (because venting is hampered), which means less energy produced by forcing the combustion to occur with less fuel. A complete combustion reaction isn't what makes an engine more efficient, because you can get that by running lean on the fuel-air mixture. What makes an engine more efficient is cool air intake (more O2 to combust), finer atomization of the fuel (more reactive area for combustion), or more complete venting of exhaust gasses (relating back to the input air having more O2).

If you really know somebody in the automotive industry, and that's what they told you, then they were making a rather substantial assumption. They were assuming that a catalytic converter was mandatory (because of the EPA rules). If you've got a set output temperature and pressure, then the only way to get better efficiency is to pull more energy from the fuel. At the same time, it's trying to increase efficiency by fractional percentages. Removing the catalytic converter increases efficiency dramatically (think 20-30% minimum). You seem rather big into the whole making assumptions before defining them thing, which is why so much of what you say needs to come with a salt grain bigger than an elephant. Between that, and selecting how you want to address your critics (again, god of the margins), I don't know what exactly is holding your beliefs together other than an unwaivering dogma. Dogma isn't science.

Go to a mechanic. Make sure they're a true motor head, and ask them what's the first thing they remove from a car whenever it's just going to be a racer. After they laugh, and cite the interior/trim, ask them about the stuff that isn't connected to the body. There are two answers that I've been given. On older cars, it's the muffler. The two justifications are to make it louder, and to remove back pressure from the engine. The next answer I get is the catalytic converter. Anybody with experiencing in actual mechanics says that the thing is a heavy chunk of metal, that makes the engine breathe through a straw. While technically inaccurate, a gearhead that can barely spell catalyst knows that the converter is a drag on performance.

Automotive companies could save huge amounts of money by not including catalytic converts. They include them because a $300 part would cost them thousands of dollars in EPA fines. Despite this, the automotive industry has lobbyists in the EPA and congress. They're fighting for more time to meet emissions standards, and ideally they're fighting for emissions standards to be regulated by somebody other than the EPA. If that's not clear, let's talk about our European brethren, who are spending millions on lobbyists to help write new emissions standards that benefit the automotive market: http://corporateeurope.org/power-lobbies/2015/09/power-car-industry-lobby-makes-scandal-inevitable

I find it insulting that you pretend to speak with authority. You do so, while demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding that could be described as equal parts shocking and criminal. You don't want to actually have a discussion, you want to dictate the minority of studies that agree to your preconceptions as facts, and pretend that everything else is biased. It's insulting when someone tries to play scientist, and fails so hard at it. Please, just stop. We understand you believe something (though what seems to change depending upon who's calling you out). We understand that you don't have a grasp on the topics, and don't seem to want to invest the time unless the abstract agrees with your preconceived notions. I won't even call bullshit on that. I just want you to be honest. You have a bias that cannot be addressed with facts. Said bias is not supported by the majority of the science.


This is the argument for a god. Allow me to be brutally honest one last time. The evidence for a god is not good. Despite that, I believe in a higher power. A higher power that doesn't give a crap about humanity as individuals, but does have a vested interest in kicking off the universe (though meddling in its current state is something that either cannot or is chosen not to be done). What science supports that? None. Can I justify my statements? No. If confronted with a definitive explanation of the origin of the universe, would I stop believing in this higher power? Yes. Do I accept that there are people who may share all of my beliefs, except for that last bit? Yes. I respect these people not for their blind faith, but for the fact that they know not to use science to justify their faith. They divorce the two. You try and marry faith to science, and nobody is happy. Stop trying to make that marriage.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.63/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
I said "volumes" for a reason; a parsed version is going to leave a lot out. I could go on, but I digress. I knew this sort of response was coming and furthers my conclusion that discussing anything with you isn't worth my time since you already have all of the answers.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,657 (0.56/day)
You're impossible.

And I said "volumes" for a reason; a parsed version is going to leave a lot out. I could go on, but I digress. I knew this sort of response was coming and furthers my conclusion that discussing anything with you isn't worth my time.

Slow clap.


You can't understand how a combustion engine works. You can't tell me why there's bias in a word. You can't even read all the way through the things you cite.


It's god of the margins. You argue it all you'd like, but it should be apparent to anyone that you don't know what the hell it is you're talking about more often than should be allowable. I shouldn't be this floored, but you're resolving this with "I'm going home." Bravo. It's exactly what I should have expected.


Before we go on, let's cover what you've missed in your defenses.
1) The study used biased words, which you can't display as biased. You can't do so because a word is not biased without context. It's like saying "albino" is racist, when describing a lab rat with white fur and pink eyes.
2) You don't understand how combustion works. This is demonstrated by your criticism of a hydrogen vehicle, specifically by stating that a hydrogen vehicle would produce water, and changing combustion for hydrogen would be trading one green house gas (CO2) for another (H2O).
3) You don't understand how a combustion engine works. Namely how removing a catalytic converter would dramatically increase output energy and engine efficiency.
4) You want to wait for another computer model to "prove" or "disprove" climate change. Of course, we've glossed over the years of input data required to generate any model. The take away is either you trust the current data (which is almost universally demonstrating climate change being man made), or you're calling for another decade of twiddling thumbs until you have something which you could still call BS on when it's done because it wasn't 100% accurate.
5) You've continued to bastardize science, and change targets whenever pinned in an argument. If CO2 is an issue, you move to methane. Methane an issue, you move onto the fact that CO2 is still a thing. One study proves you wrong, cite a single contradictory study and completely deny that there's a demonstrable trend in the data. A summary of abstracts counters your point and demonstrates a trend, call it biased despite the insane lengths that have been gone to to remove the bias (because an earlier summary was entirely biased).


Where's you god? I ask, because this has been done before. It's been a staple of creationists. After them, the anti-vaccination crowd used this argument style. They based everything on a discredited paper, but the mountains of evidence could be brushed aside (who the f*** thought measles would be a thing again in our lifetime). You're treading a well worn path. You're using the same arguments and tactics. If having that explained to you is somehow offensive, then you should really take a look at yourself.


A decade ago I could reasonably say that global warming was worthy of a lot more study before conclusions were drawn. 5 years ago you could reasonably state that global warming wasn't a thing, but that we should frame the research as climate change. It's now 2016. Studies from a decade worth of research have demonstrated that climate change isn't something a person can deny based upon available data. Continuing to ask for more studies isn't unreasonable, but acting as though current data doesn't demonstrate a trend is so backwards that you have to completely forego scientific research if you want to deny it. The problem is you're not willing to admit the science doesn't agree with you. You want to use science to prove your points, and deny it when it doesn't agree. Stop it. You don't get to choose. Pretending that there's a reasonable debate, so we need to wait another decade for any conclusions, is lying. It's trying to make science bend to ideology. Stop it, or be prepared to be as discredited as the incompetents who've failed before you. I can only tell you that if I was in the same boat as a creationist or anti-vaccination zealot I'd seriously think that my point was wrong. That level of stupid doesn't wash off.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.63/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
I don't know why I bother but you've finally given me something I can respond to:
1) Using the phrase "global warming" excludes articles that concluded the opposite ("global cooling") as well as those that are either inconclusive, states no opinion, nor determine the climate is stable. Cook deliberately ignored the latter group which actually comprised of the majority of articles (>66%).
2) And? It's a statement of fact. Going further, which I didn't do previously, I believe we can strike a balance with the water cycle from producing/consuming hydrogen fuel. It may involve simply bottling the oxygen and hydrogen separately and storing the resulting water so it is never introduced to the atmosphere; thusly, the atmosphere isn't treated as a sink for human activity.
3) I never said anything about removing catalyitic converters (or about catalyitic converters). More thorough combustion is used to reduce NOx emissions especially in diesel engines. It reduces the need for DEF but emissions controls have gotten so strict (especially in the USA), DEF is effectively mandatory.
4a) I really don't care about proving anything. All I know is there are gapping holes in specific fields of atmospheric research that need filling.
4b) I never suggested "twiddling thumbs." I suggest (and always have) action through the discovery and application of technology.
5) I've been very consistent in saying CO2 is an issue. As for methane, see point 4a.
 

TheMailMan78

Big Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
22,599 (3.67/day)
Location
'Merica. The Great SOUTH!
System Name TheMailbox 5.0 / The Mailbox 4.5
Processor RYZEN 1700X / Intel i7 2600k @ 4.2GHz
Motherboard Fatal1ty X370 Gaming K4 / Gigabyte Z77X-UP5 TH Intel LGA 1155
Cooling MasterLiquid PRO 280 / Scythe Katana 4
Memory ADATA RGB 16GB DDR4 2666 16-16-16-39 / G.SKILL Sniper Series 16GB DDR3 1866: 9-9-9-24
Video Card(s) MSI 1080 "Duke" with 8Gb of RAM. Boost Clock 1847 MHz / ASUS 780ti
Storage 256Gb M4 SSD / 128Gb Agelity 4 SSD , 500Gb WD (7200)
Display(s) LG 29" Class 21:9 UltraWide® IPS LED Monitor 2560 x 1080 / Dell 27"
Case Cooler Master MASTERBOX 5t / Cooler Master 922 HAF
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1220 Audio Codec / SupremeFX X-Fi with Bose Companion 2 speakers.
Power Supply Seasonic FOCUS Plus Series SSR-750PX 750W Platinum / SeaSonic X Series X650 Gold
Mouse SteelSeries Sensei (RAW) / Logitech G5
Keyboard Razer BlackWidow / Logitech (Unknown)
Software Windows 10 Pro (64-bit)
Benchmark Scores Benching is for bitches.
Text wall warriors, ACTIVATE!
 

dorsetknob

"YOUR RMA REQUEST IS CON-REFUSED"
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
9,105 (1.31/day)
Location
Dorset where else eh? >>> Thats ENGLAND<<<
@TheMailMan78

with some posts i just need more screen space to read them



:) :) :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top