Microsoft says this might be the last console generation

[P4-630]

"
It also explained its confusing E3 statements on Project Scorpio exclusives.

Earlier today I sat down with Aaron Greenberg, Microsoft's head of Xbox games marketing, to talk about Xbox One, Project Scorpio and the future of console gaming. Here are Greenberg's thoughts on three key topics.

On Project Scorpio–exclusive titles
At E3, Xbox head Phil Spencer said that all games and accessories will support all versions of the Xbox One, including Project Scorpio. I said at the time that this statement was not true, because only Project Scorpio will support a VR headset (an accessory), and there will definitely be VR-only games that work only with Project Scorpio. Greenberg shed some light on this, saying that the main reasoning behind Spencer's making this point is that everything that works on Xbox One will work on Project Scorpio, rather than the other way around.

He added that while Microsoft is "not going to have console-exclusive games for Project Scorpio," it doesn't "think of [high-fidelity VR] as console gaming, and so with the VR experiences those will be new things that you will get on Project Scorpio."

Here's the full question-and-answer:

Q: Phil Spencer said that all accessories and all games work across all versions of the Xbox One. But he also said Project Scorpio is specifically the only Xbox that's powerful enough to run VR. I don't quite understand how those two statements can coexist.

Greenberg: The idea was, first, how can we innovate with hardware without sacrificing compatibility? Generally when you bring a new iteration of console hardware you lose compatibility with their games and accessories. So we're saying, if you bought games and accessories for your Xbox One, or you buy an Xbox One S, those games and those accessories are going to work on Project Scorpio. When you think about backwards compatibility and our games lineup, we want gamers to know that when they're ready to upgrade to Scorpio, that content will go with them. That's our promise and commitment around compatibility.

The next thing was "Are you going to make games exclusively to Project Scorpio?" And we said we're not going to have console-exclusive games for Project Scorpio. It's one ecosystem -- whether you have an Xbox One S or Project Scorpio, we don't want anyone to be left behind, Now, with the power and capabilities we have, we'll be able to do high-fidelity VR. Now, that space, we don't think of that as console gaming, we think of that as high-fidelity VR, and so with the VR experiences those will be new things that you will get on Project Scorpio.

On the end of console generations
"The future of Xbox looks a lot like PC gaming." That's what Engadget editor Nathan Ingraham wrote after speaking with Phil Spencer earlier this year. Spencer spoke about wanting to see a steady stream of hardware innovation rather than seven-year gaps between consoles, citing the smartphone market as inspiration. Greenberg went one step further. In his opinion, this is the last console generation. "We think the future is without console generations," he said, explaining that Project Scorpio was a "big bet" that gamers will embrace that notion.

Q: The Xbox platform has moved forward to have such regular updates and new features coming all the time. It kind of seems like hardware is going the same way. There was a very short gap between the Xbox One and the Xbox One S, and we're probably talking an even shorter gap before Project Scorpio. Do you see a future of console upgrades continually happening? Is this the last console generation?

Greenberg: I think it is. ... For us, we think the future is without console generations; we think that the ability to build a library, a community, to be able to iterate with the hardware -- we're making a pretty big bet on that with Project Scorpio. We're basically saying, "This isn't a new generation; everything you have continues forward and it works." We think of this as a family of devices.

But we'll see. We're going to learn from this, we're going to see how that goes. So far I'd say, based on the reaction, there appears to be a lot of demand and interest around Project Scorpio, and we think it's going to be a pretty big success. If the games and the content deliver, which I think they will do, I think it will change the way we think about the future of console gaming.

On closing the gap between PlayStation 4 and Xbox One
Sony is "winning" this console generation, at least in sales. Microsoft hasn't released any data in an age, but Sony passed 40 million sold months back, while current estimates put Xbox One at around the 22 million mark. I asked Greenberg how Microsoft fixed that, and if it's actually trying. He said that console sales are "really healthy," and that more people are using Xbox One now than last year. A large focus for the company is in bringing the games to a bigger audience through Xbox Play Anywhere (a feature that lets you buy a game once and play on Xbox and PC), rather than just trying to sell new consoles.

Q: I was in [a company's] briefing last week, and they said by the end of the year you'd sell 29 million Xbox Ones, versus 52 million PlayStation 4s. Obviously those are estimates, but the gap is there. How do you close that gap, and how focused are you on closing it versus just trying to make the 29 million Xbox gamers you do have happy?

Greenberg: We're focused on a few things. I'd say first we're focused on growing the user base of our games, bringing our games to as many gamers as possible; that's why you see a lot of our big franchises on Windows 10. That allows more gamers than ever before to play titles like Gears of War, Forza Horizon, etc. From a console ecosystem standpoint, we're seeing really healthy console sales and really healthy engagement. Year over year, for the month of July, we saw Xbox One usage up 18 percent, so also really healthy.

Sony's had a lot of success as well. I think what you're seeing is that the console market is really healthy, console sales are doing really well in general, software sales are strong. It's been a good industry for both of us, and we're innovating in different ways. We're innovating in a way where we know a lot of gamers are multi-device gamers -- they don't just buy one system -- and so we want to be able to have the same types of experiences on Xbox Live, the same games, the same friends, both in the living room on their console or at work, on vacation or at school on their PC. You should be able to stay connected, and play the same games through things like Play Anywhere. That's really been where we've been focused.

We're live all week from Cologne, Germany, for Gamescom 2016. Click here to catch up on all the news from the show."

https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/17/microsoft-aaron-greenberg-qa-project-scorpio-vr/

 

[Disparia]

'bout time. 16 years ago MS started all this by saying the Xbox would be a long-term-support PC, for those not desiring anything more than games and some web. But when it came out a year later, I saw what it was, and haven't bought or even touched an Xbox since.

 

[Steevo]

With the continued improvement in performance, and the complete and utter failure in the idea that people won't own desktop computers, coupled to the high speed internet and huge amount of storage available....... the console will go back to being the other thing that people play instead of MS trying to force an expensive box onto customers that only does less than what a computer does with fewer options and customization abilities.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

I don't know if this is really the end of console generations, or just an alternative to only having the choice of one cheaper system. If they're focusing a lot on backwards compatibility, that means a lot of people not able to afford a Scorpio will stay on One. If they ignore that, they lose a big part of their customer base.

I think Scorpio will be popular among older, middle income single gamers and dads whom can easily afford it, but One will still satisfy quite a few whom can't. That means the formula going forward would be a 7-8 year cycle for the cheaper platforms, and more like 3-4 years for the higher end ones. So they're just adding shorter cycle platforms into the mix.

The biggest shocker for me in all this was their saying Scorpio will have zero exclusives. Seriously? The first time a console has high end PC power, and full KB/M support, and with all that potential, you're going to leave it void of exclusives? I personally think that alone is going to leave a lot of people not wanting to buy one.

 

[alucasa]

What I have noticed is gradual loss of sales over the generation. Playstation 2 was a HUGE, big ass, success. P3 had far less success. P4 even has less. Consoles are progressively dying out sale number wise.
I can only assume that P5, the next generation, will even have less success if it's ever announced.

Personally, I see the gradual loss of sales is a direct result of far less 3rd party gaming studio. Large companies bought them out and qualities became lowered.
Nowadays, most games are either shooter or actions games. There are hardly any decent RPGs anymore. J-RPGs nowadays focus on skirts. American RPGs focus on graphics too much.

 

[D007]

Lol they fought as hard as they could to kill the PC gamer.. But in the end.. The master race wins!
Vindicated much? lol

 

[rtwjunkie]

Personally, I see the gradual loss of sales is a direct result of far less 3rd party gaming studio. Large companies bought them out and qualities became lowered.
Nowadays, most games are either shooter or actions games. There are hardly any decent RPGs anymore. J-RPGs nowadays focus on skirts. American RPGs focus on graphics too much.

You're talking about on console, right? Because with PC there is a proliferation of 3rd party studios.

 

[alucasa]

You're talking about on console, right? Because with PC there is a proliferation of 3rd party studios.

Of course? This thread is about consoles, right?

On PC, hell too many 3rd parties. Some are just cash grabbers and disappear.

 

[slozomby]

well since Microsoft wants all new games to be compatible for xbox and win10 whats the point of the xbox anymore. they wont have to sell hardware at cost/loss anymore.

the only part that confuses me is they killed media center tv tuners in 10.

 

[Niteblooded]

If Microsoft has that future foresight thinker that helps revolutionize the industry they wouldn't be in the position they're in right now. The Microsoft Store is a hot mess. First they say scruff off to PC gamers, now they say it to console gamers. Sounds like a sore loser not knowing who to cater to saying whatever just to gain favor.

Microsoft may bow out but Sony and Nintendo will thrive on. And PC Gamers will stick with Steam, GOG and a couple others. But Microsoft won't, they already pre-built their backpedal clause.

But we'll see. We're going to learn from this, we're going to see how that goes. So far I'd say, based on the reaction, there appears to be a lot of demand and interest around Project Scorpio, and we think it's going to be a pretty big success. If the games and the content deliver, which I think they will do, I think it will change the way we think about the future of console gaming.

 

[cdawall]

Fix the Microsoft store and I have no issue with any of this.

 

[SaltyFish]

So this means consoles (at least those of Microsoft and Sony) will have "innate backwards-compatibility" instead of continually re-releasing old games on new platforms. Not that different from how it is with PC and Android (same platform, better hardware) while retaining the simple plug-and-play.feature of consoles. Don't see why this is a bad thing. PC Master Race circle-jerk people can complain but few gamers (even those with PC) bother with tinkering and all that jazz. Though I suspect some form of convergence is happening. Not sure if keyboard and mouse supported games will take off on consoles (it's been done before and it kinda goes against the whole simplicity thing) but it does, it makes PC less intimidating for the masses. But I think people will still be confused by all the extra options on PC... it's one thing to play games on PC, it's another to muck around with it.

If I recall, Scorpio's exclusives lie in VR. I suspect new iterations of XB1 and PS4 will eventually have "exclusives" at some point. Eventually there will be more iterations and it would be pointless not to make use of that shiny new stuff. If anything, Nintendo beat them to the punch with its New 3DS. At worse, games will detect the console iteration and use appropriate graphic settings (not that different from auto-detect on PC games... only with a smaller set of hardware, it'd be more accurate). Which still isn't that bad since game mechanics have stagnated. And with the exception of a few things like resolution, game mechanics are unaffected by graphical settings.

Nowadays, most games are either shooter or actions games. There are hardly any decent RPGs anymore. J-RPGs nowadays focus on skirts. American RPGs focus on graphics too much.

That's a pretty accurate and succinct summary on current RPGs. I also miss beat-em-ups, shoot-em-ups (remember when "shooter" referred to this and not FPS?), non-casual puzzle games, turn-based RPGs, and such.

 

[Melvis]

Its only dieing cause of how its delivered, games are more expensive then PC games, you gotta pay to play online, the amount of games are less and the same game will look and run and be all round better on PC and the cost of a PC to play these games have come down.

 

[Nobody99]

Once the whole point of consoles was that there was only one contemporary console available but today you already have two which were released in such a short time, this invalidates the most appeling aspect of consoles. I really don't know what they are thinking, do they plan to release new console every second year and then optimize all games for the older consoles? I don't think any of the console users would stand for that, the consoles used to be like "one ring to rule them all" and not like PCs where you have more than one choice with different hardware performances.

 

[RejZoR]

The whole point of consoles is that they were cheap and easy to work with. Today they aren't cheap anymore and with all the crap they attached to them with all the limitations and restrictions, they aren't as interesting anymore. PC just makes more sense and there is always one friend that can maintain it for you for free, games are a lot cheaper an long term you can enjoy them longer. There is no hardware limitation where with consoles, if it dies, you can't play games anymore. At all. With PC, you can migrate freaking 30 years old games and still play them. Good luck trying that with consoles.

 

[Niteblooded]

So this means consoles (at least those of Microsoft and Sony) will have "innate backwards-compatibility" instead of continually re-releasing old games on new platforms. Not that different from how it is with PC and Android (same platform, better hardware) while retaining the simple plug-and-play.feature of consoles. Don't see why this is a bad thing. PC Master Race circle-jerk people can complain but few gamers (even those with PC) bother with tinkering and all that jazz. Though I suspect some form of convergence is happening. Not sure if keyboard and mouse supported games will take off on consoles (it's been done before and it kinda goes against the whole simplicity thing) but it does, it makes PC less intimidating for the masses. But I think people will still be confused by all the extra options on PC... it's one thing to play games on PC, it's another to muck around with it.

If I recall, Scorpio's exclusives lie in VR. I suspect new iterations of XB1 and PS4 will eventually have "exclusives" at some point. Eventually there will be more iterations and it would be pointless not to make use of that shiny new stuff. If anything, Nintendo beat them to the punch with its New 3DS. At worse, games will detect the console iteration and use appropriate graphic settings (not that different from auto-detect on PC games... only with a smaller set of hardware, it'd be more accurate). Which still isn't that bad since game mechanics have stagnated. And with the exception of a few things like resolution, game mechanics are unaffected by graphical settings.

Pretty much but it is one of those things we will have to see how it works in practice. I mean it sounds great in theory especially if you are worried about backwards compatibility, but there are a couple big hurdles with this solution though.

1. This means players could end up paying every couple years for new hardware. The biggest pro to consoles is you spend $300-$400 and you have hardware that plays all the latest games for 5-7 years at the same graphics quality. For a PC player to accomplish the same thing they have to buy a graphics card every couple years, which is about the same cost as a console in some cases. Some PC gamers buy a new GPU every gen, which is way overkill but some do it. But console players don't have to worry about it, they have a 1 time entry cost and they're good for 5-7. That is one of the biggest reasons console players stay on consoles. And its one of the biggest reasons why I play both PC (mostly) and console.
   
2. How are devs going to handle constantly changing hardware? One of the biggest reasons devs like programming games for consoles over PCs is because the platform (both hardware and software) is stable. The O/S should be stable for the most part but how are devs going to handle aging hardware? One of the things that held Destiny back was having to keep support for PS3 and XB360 and that monkey on the back was only 1 generation but it meant simple things like vault space was extremely limited for long periods of time with minor upgrades here and there. So if it held back very simple upgrades imagine what else could have been done if the PS3/360 generation wasn't holding it back. This is going to be a very real issue for devs and that will frustrate gamers too because those who purchase the new hardware will not be able to enjoy it as much as they should.

They are trying to bridge the gap between PCs and Consoles but I don't think they have a good idea of why each is successful. Why buy a quasi-PC when you can have the real thing? And why buy a quasi-console when you can go to the competition and get all the pros of a real console? I've talked with rich people in the tech industry who thought both PC and Console gaming would end because cell phone technology has become so advanced. I didn't buy that either. In fact, what I see is PC gaming, console gaming, cell phone gaming ...oh and hand-held gaming all having their place in this world.

That's a pretty accurate and succinct summary on current RPGs. I also miss beat-em-ups, shoot-em-ups (remember when "shooter" referred to this and not FPS?), non-casual puzzle games, turn-based RPGs, and such.

There are good RPGs, fighting games and puzzle games on the console. It's just most here are anti-console so you don't hear about them here at TPU. There are a lot of good games too.

 

[RejZoR]

And there is Nintendo that does neither of what other two are doing and they are still doing perfectly fine sticking with what consoles used to be. Fun machines and not a bragging tool who has more gigabytes and gigahertz...

 

[Dethroy]

Consoles should refocus on gaming imho. Sony and Microsoft are trying too hard to be the jack of all trades with their consoles. Remember those days when all you could do with a console was plug in a cartridge and play a video game?

 

[alucasa]

The last RPG I truly enjoyed was Xenoblade Chronicles X and I purchased Wii U just for it.

It's hard to find good RPGs nowadays.

 

[Steevo]

Pretty much but it is one of those things we will have to see how it works in practice. I mean it sounds great in theory especially if you are worried about backwards compatibility, but there are a couple big hurdles with this solution though.

1. This means players could end up paying every couple years for new hardware. The biggest pro to consoles is you spend $300-$400 and you have hardware that plays all the latest games for 5-7 years at the same graphics quality. For a PC player to accomplish the same thing they have to buy a graphics card every couple years, which is about the same cost as a console in some cases. Some PC gamers buy a new GPU every gen, which is way overkill but some do it. But console players don't have to worry about it, they have a 1 time entry cost and they're good for 5-7. That is one of the biggest reasons console players stay on consoles. And its one of the biggest reasons why I play both PC (mostly) and console.
   
2. How are devs going to handle constantly changing hardware? One of the biggest reasons devs like programming games for consoles over PCs is because the platform (both hardware and software) is stable. The O/S should be stable for the most part but how are devs going to handle aging hardware? One of the things that held Destiny back was having to keep support for PS3 and XB360 and that monkey on the back was only 1 generation but it meant simple things like vault space was extremely limited for long periods of time with minor upgrades here and there. So if it held back very simple upgrades imagine what else could have been done if the PS3/360 generation wasn't holding it back. This is going to be a very real issue for devs and that will frustrate gamers too because those who purchase the new hardware will not be able to enjoy it as much as they should.

They are trying to bridge the gap between PCs and Consoles but I don't think they have a good idea of why each is successful. Why buy a quasi-PC when you can have the real thing? And why buy a quasi-console when you can go to the competition and get all the pros of a real console? I've talked with rich people in the tech industry who thought both PC and Console gaming would end because cell phone technology has become so advanced. I didn't buy that either. In fact, what I see is PC gaming, console gaming, cell phone gaming ...oh and hand-held gaming all having their place in this world.


There are good RPGs, fighting games and puzzle games on the console. It's just most here are anti-console so you don't hear about them here at TPU. There are a lot of good games too.

Nah. Considering how the Xbone/PS4 is an APU X86-64, and games can be played on older hardware just fine until the DX version of the hardware can't handle it, which is YEARS between.

Im using and perfectly happy with a 7970 GPU, and a Thuban X6 processor, I play GTA5 just fine on almost ultra settings. Right now for less than $500 I could build a machine that could play all newer games at 1080 (not 60Hz as consoles don't play at that frame rate for all games) and it would work just fine. Hell, I could do it with some lease return machines for less than $300.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

I really don't get why many here are interpreting this as consoles "dying". The only thing they're really saying is it's going to be the death of a forced 7+ yr cycle. What they're really doing is offering more choices, which is a sign of increased sales if anything. The rule of thumb in manufacturing is you add more product lines when you can afford to. That's expansion 101.

And even though I don't like that they won't have any non VR exclusives for Scorpio, just the fact that they feel they can offer them only via VR means they aren't worried about how many units they can sell. All this really is up front is a push to support 4k and VR. It just so happens it also adds another product tier, which they can obviously afford.

The response to the new systems is there, the console sales overall are there. Otherwise they wouldn't even be planning such things. Whether this is good for PC remains to be seen. I thought next gen would be good for PC game development, but so far that hasn't been the case. Hopefully Neo & Scorpio will compare well enough to PC to put an end to parity.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

what I think they mean is from here on its a brand that mearly gets revised not replaced ,so this is the last platform update.

 

[Ithanul]

What I have noticed is gradual loss of sales over the generation. Playstation 2 was a HUGE, big ass, success. P3 had far less success. P4 even has less. Consoles are progressively dying out sale number wise.
I can only assume that P5, the next generation, will even have less success if it's ever announced.

Personally, I see the gradual loss of sales is a direct result of far less 3rd party gaming studio. Large companies bought them out and qualities became lowered.
Nowadays, most games are either shooter or actions games. There are hardly any decent RPGs anymore. J-RPGs nowadays focus on skirts. American RPGs focus on graphics too much.

Probably the smartphone and tablet freemium games eating up a lot of profits and time. Kind of hard to beat something can play anywhere and way cheaper in comparison.

There still a few good RPGs out there. It just rare and you have to look for them: Xenoblade Chronicles, Tokyo Mirage Session: FE, Fire Emblem, etc. (I know Nintendo, but it seems so far that where I am finding the good ones at)

Though on consoles, I actually hope they keep going. Sometimes I like something that easy to just fire up and go. On price....go back and do inflation adjustment on the NES and SNES plus their games. That was not cheap either back then.

The last RPG I truly enjoyed was Xenoblade Chronicles X and I purchased Wii U just for it.

It's hard to find good RPGs nowadays.

Ah, you got a Wii U. Try Tokyo Mirage Session: FE. It a bit nutty on JP stuff (some special attacks are weird), but it has solid gameplay. Especially once you get where you can combo up big time and string up attacks from chars not in the battle. The nightmare monster spawns will kick your butt if you can't handle them. Plus, so far the boss battles have been tense at times (I tend to not max grind before facing them).

 

[alucasa]

Ah, you got a Wii U. Try Tokyo Mirage Session: FE. It a bit nutty on JP stuff (some special attacks are weird), but it has solid gameplay. Especially once you get where you can combo up big time and string up attacks from chars not in the battle. The nightmare monster spawns will kick your butt if you can't handle them. Plus, so far the boss battles have been tense at times (I tend to not max grind before facing them).

I have most consoles, including handheld. Fire emblem, of course I have them. I don't care which platform RPGs are. I just get them regardless the cost - if - I deem them worthy while.

Xenoblade Chronicles X was such a case where I felt compelled to get Wii U just for the game. I sank around 200 hours into it and I was satisified. It was a masterful RPG from the beginning to the end. But I chalked Tokyo Mirage Session: FE off my list. The impression of "Fuck, this is the game I've been looking for" wasn't there. I will probably try it when price comes down though. As it stands, I am not willing to spend the full price.

 

[Ithanul]

I have most consoles, including handheld. Fire emblem, of course I have them. I don't care which platform RPGs are. I just get them regardless the cost - if - I deem them worthy while.

Xenoblade Chronicles X was such a case where I felt compelled to get Wii U just for the game. I sank around 200 hours into it and I was satisified. It was a masterful RPG from the beginning to the end. But I chalked Tokyo Mirage Session: FE off my list. The impression of "Fuck, this is the game I've been looking for" wasn't there. I will probably try it when price comes down though. As it stands, I am not willing to spend the full price.

Yeah, I'm the same way with games. If it has my interest I will buy the console. Reason I have yet to bother with a Xbox One or PS4. Might change soon when KH3 drops and if The Last Guardian actually comes out. Or if they ever do a darn blasted HD remake of Star Ocean: Till the End of Time. I loved that battle system to death. Think I had lv120+ chars in that game. Was working my way through the secret dungeons before my save file got corrupt on my PS2....

I still need to finish up Xenoblade X. I have to say I like the battle system refinement they did since the first one. So much RPG goodness in that game.