F 35 and MIG 35 at Paris Airshow (vids)

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

 

[Komshija]

The first one is an underperforming ridiculously overpriced piece of garbage. Literally. Pierre Sprey, a well known expert who designed F-15, F-16 and A-10, told the truth about F-35.

The other one is actually very a good fighter with excellent price tag and improved Klimov RD-33MK engine, improved maneuverability, improved radar and electro-optical systems; which at the very moment presents the best possible purchase and thus value for the money. In the world of fighter jets, it's an Ryzen Threadripper.

 

[Ferrum Master]

F22 despite the age is still better. F35 really struggles to stay airborne, and the thing is empty now, how it acts fully loaded? Russian smokey engines are shit... they simply spoil all the party for them... lucky us lol...

 

[Komshija]

Yes, early RD-33 engines produced smoke because they weren't very efficient in burning fuel, but nevertheless that still allowed them extraordinary dogfight performance superior to the main counterpart F-16. German pilots explained that well in the early 90's when testing export (15-20% downgraded) East German Mig-29A against the US non-export F-16C. In short, Mig's were proven to be superior.
Saturn's engines don't smoke at all, but they were too heavy for Mig-29. Early Mig-29's engines were sort of a trade-off for the increased performance. Newer versions like RD-33MK don't produce smoke.

On the other hand, PW F-119 is good engine, but Russia and China are developing superior versions with better thrust. Even more, Sukhoi's and Mig's with 3D-thrust vectoring engines surpass F-22 in maneuverability and T-50 is already on the scene. Whether Chinese J-20 and J-31 with their new engines are as good is still a mystery.
Every aircraft has it's advantages and disadvantages, but F-35 is a complete failure.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Mig's were proven to be superior.

I read the opposite, exactly from pilot interviews. It flied like bitch, specs were mostly exaggerated, their engines still have a low life span, Russians lack metallurgy skills to develop single crystal blades, and seeing at their development trends, they even wont be able, even china isn't capable of it.

Biggest drawback is that that the thing has supermanuverably only while empty(that we see during airshows), while loaded it doesn't have anything of it, it even cannot turn(9G) unlike other older gen aircrafts including the F16.

F22 remains still the only gen 5 jet in my books. F35 is a beta test still.

 

[Ebo]

WELL...wasent it last week that a Syrian MIG was shot out of the sky without ever knowing was hit it ?.

Western tec IS superiour to anything the russians or Chinese for that matter has to offer. Mabye SU-47 can do something aout that, but I have my doubt, since western development on fighters dosent stop at all.

Even the Eurofighter will blow that one out of the sky.

 

[Ferrum Master]

SU-47

Shelved forever I guess, they didn't solve high speed vibration problem I guess. PAK-FA is the only thing, also I heard it is delayed...

 

[BarbaricSoul]

WELL...wasent it last week that a Syrian MIG was shot out of the sky without ever knowing was hit it ?.

Western tec IS superiour to anything the russians or Chinese for that matter has to offer. Mabye SU-47 can do something aout that, but I have my doubt, since western development on fighters dosent stop at all.

Even the Eurofighter will blow that one out of the sky.

That was done by a F18 Superhornet. Not even one of our best fighters, and not a stealth aircraft. The Raptor and Eagle are better fighters than the Superhornet.

Lets not forget the Eagle has a 10-1 kill ratio against all the opponents it's gone up against (except for the Raptor), and the Raptor has a 10-1 kill ratio in simulations against the Eagle.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I thought the F-35 pulled off more impressive maneuvers than the MiG-35 (especially demonstrating the ability to climb with little loss in velocity). F-35 produces more thrust from it's one big engine than MiG-35's two small engines combined. F-35 is therefore more fuel efficient and the engine is easier to maintain (minus the F-35B variant). About the only metrics MiG-35 wins is cost and top speed.

Lets not forget the Eagle has a 10-1 kill ratio against all the opponents it's gone up against (except for the Raptor), and the Raptor has a 10-1 kill ratio in simulations against the Eagle.

And only when the simulation forces a dog fight (stealth doesn't matter). Realistically, a Raptor will never let an enemy aircraft get that close.

 

[Komshija]

I read the opposite, exactly from pilot interviews. It flied like bitch, specs were mostly exaggerated, their engines still have a low life span, Russians lack metallurgy skills to develop single crystal blades, and seeing at their development trends, they even wont be able, even china isn't capable of it.

Biggest drawback is that that the thing has supermanuverably only while empty(that we see during airshows), while loaded it doesn't have anything of it, it even cannot turn(9G) unlike other older gen aircrafts including the F16.

F22 remains still the only gen 5 jet in my books. F35 is a beta test still.

Sorry mate, but answer sounds like a pile of BS and some copy-pasted text from some self-proclaimed "expert".
Mig had superior turn rate, accelerated faster, and combined with HMS + R-73 it was unbeatable at short ranges. Neither aircraft carried long range AA weapons. F-16C had slightly superior radar, but Mig had IRST which gave it an advantage. That's what German pilots said. Besides let's not forget that this was downgraded export Mig vs. US non-downgraded latest gen F-16C.

Besides, Russia HAS monocrystallite turbine blades which are present in few AL-31 variants and I think that RD-33MK has them as well, since RD-93 has them for sure. AL-41 has them 110 % as well as civilian PD-14 and its variants. China might have them too since they shamelessly copied (stole) many Russian, British and US technologies. So, your claims are not correct again.

The other thing about Mig's lack of maneuverability when fully armed is only partially correct. When lightly armed, Mig-29 can without a problem pull 9 G's and pretty much the same goes for F-16. They both belong to 4'th generation of fighters, although the "ultimate" Mig-29 variant (Mig-35) belongs to 4++ generation, meaning that it's much more advanced than 4'th gen fighters and has close characteristics to a 5'th gen fighters.

For now F-22 is the only active 5-th generation fighter, but T-50, J-20, J-31, F-313 and others will follow very soon. Besides, "stealth" is a Russian technology and without Ufimtsev's work there would be no US stealth bombers and fighters, or at least there would be no such for a few decades. These are just plain facts.

F-35 is a failed program. Accept it. It's not an maneuverable aircraft, its stealth is questionable and its combat performance even more questionable. So far the whole F-35 program burned billions of $ and the single unit will cost almost 200 million $, which makes it not only a ridiculously expensive aircraft, but also the worst possible value for the money. Even if USA solves many F-35's issues, this will further increase aircraft's price to well over 200 million $.

 

[Ebo]

In my country which is Denmark, we have placed an order for F-35 to come after F-16.

The first should acording to plan be delivered in 2018-2020. Its not that many but were going down the drone way also, it's cheaper to let a guy with a joystick do your stuff than educate a pilot and mabye he gets killed.

 

[BarbaricSoul]

About the only metrics MiG-35 wins is cost and top speed.

That was the only metrics that the F 4 excelled at against the MIGS of it's time, and after tactics were developed, they were enough for the F 4 to out kill the MIGS.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

F-35 is a failed program. Accept it. It's not an maneuverable aircraft, its stealth is questionable and its combat performance even more questionable. So far the whole F-35 program burned billions of $ and the single unit will cost almost 200 million $, which makes it not only a ridiculously expensive aircraft, but also the worst possible value for the money. Even if USA solves many F-35's issues, this will further increase aircraft's price to well over 200 million $.

They've already built and delivered over 200 F-35s. Most countries that placed orders for F-35As already have at least one.

That was the only metrics that the F 4 excelled at against the MIGS of it's time, and after tactics were developed, they were enough for the F 4 to out kill the MIGS.

Fifth generation stealth fighter versus fourth generation non-stealth fighter. F-35 will get most kills on MiG-35 outside of their detection range.

 

[BarbaricSoul]

Fifth generation stealth fighter versus fourth generation non-stealth fighter. F-35 will get most kills on MiG-35 outside of their detection range.

True, outside of detection range, the F 35 will score more kills on the MIG, but the problem is when the MIG does manage to get close. The F 35 will not be able to get away. But then again, I really don't see the F 35 being used as a front line fighter. But more like an attack aircraft or a stand off fighter. The Raptors will be doing our dogfighting for the most part. This how I believe F 35 will be used (fast foward to the 34 min mark)-

 

[Komshija]

In my country which is Denmark, we have placed an order for F-35 to come after F-16.

The first should acording to plan be delivered in 2018-2020. Its not that many but were going down the drone way also, it's cheaper to let a guy with a joystick do your stuff than educate a pilot and mabye he gets killed.

We all know how our European politicians operate and who controls them. Eurofighter, Raffale, Grippen and Mig-35 are all much better and far, far cheaper variants than buggy F-35. In other words, you'll and other nations who buy it will be saving (financing) US military-industrial complex, while US citizens practically paid for the whole program and will not receive a single dime from any kind of deal or sale considering F-35's. Let's not forget that despite F-35 is marketed as "multinational" program with external partners, it's almost fully funded out of US citizen's pockets and "partner" nations only obligated themselves to buy certain amount of these abnormally expensive flawed fighters. Basically, everyone except the US military-industrial complex and our corrupt politicians is on the loosing side.

Su-22 is an old, non-upgraded export aircraft, so it doesn't make much sense. Besides, Syrian pilots are nowhere near match for US pilots considering training or combat abilities.

Fifth generation stealth fighter versus fourth generation non-stealth fighter. F-35 will get most kills on MiG-35 outside of their detection range.

Theoretically. Pilot's abilities are much more important. Besides, Russians have developed years ago radars that are extremely effective against stealth, so F-35 has very little chance against Mig-35 or some other 4++ gen fighters like Eurofighter Typhoon. The system was tested in former YU when they easily shot down an F-117 and continued in Syria when SAA shot down an F-22 with export S-300. This wasn't reported by our media.

 

[Ebo]

Grippen was the first to fall, then eurofighter, french Rafale is also 4th generation fighter which were not going to have this is 5th.
We dont care about the money, and politics is politics, but we wanted the best for the money we were going to spend on new fighters

Nothing from the eastern side has ever come out that can surpass the west, and thats the trouth even if you dont wanna belive it.
Just look at F-22 that plane has been service for years now,, and nothing from Russia or China has even come close to be in the same league, and thats a fact.

 

[BarbaricSoul]

when SAA shot down an F-22 with export S-300.

I would be curious about where you heard that? Considering I live less than 45 minutes from Langley AFB (home of half the US East Coast Raptor squadrons, which are the ones that would go to Europe) and have several friends that are Air Force members and stationed at Langley, I have never heard of this happening.

 

[Komshija]

That's a pretty bold statement having in mind that Russian and Chinese pilots never met US or NATO pilots in direct combat. What we had is poorly trained pilots from third world countries with export (downgraded) aircraft facing newest aircraft piloted by the best western pilots. Nobody can deny that.
You got the worst for the money and I explained you the reason. A 200+ million $ flawed fighter is hardly the best deal for the money.

F-22 for mow is considered as the best, but as I said T-50, Mig-41, J-20, J-31 and even F-313 will be out soon. Keep in mind that F-22 never faced modern eastern counterpart in the air.

I would be curious about where you heard that? Considering I live less than 45 minutes for Langley AFB (home of half the US East Coast Raptor squadrons, which are the ones that would go to Europe) and have several friends that are Air Force members and stationed at Langley, I have never heard of this happening.

I think that this was from UAE and was shot near the Syrian-Jordanian border three or four years ago - at the very start of Syrian proxy war. I remember that Syrian and even Jordanian sources confirmed that. That happened pretty much at the same time when Russia? or Syria? shot down four US Tomahawk missiles targeting Syrian infrastructure.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Eating too much propaganda?

Engines are utter fail, PAK-FA is delayed because of that, they lack the skills to make the blades that doesn't melt at the needed thrust output. Since I last checked average engine service life is two times more for US/EU made engines versus Lylka and Klimov. Nothing has changed metallurgy wise. They burn faster as they need more thrust to achieve supercruise and thus the hurdle again.

China didn't steal what can't be stolen as Russians simply doesn't have the tech. Making monocrystal blades ain't a childs play. Also trying to make something and calling it monocrystal also judging by the facts kind of doesn't work. Chinese buy their engines from Russians for their 5th gen fighter tests, yet they fail creating their own just to fulfill gen5 needs, while Russians still doesn't have a working 5th gen engine themselves, like 30 years already, ain't it? That F* kolhoz has never ceased to be.

Theoretically. Pilot's abilities are much more important.

Practically rubbish. Tactics and information is the most important product, the pilot is only the executioner, also much more assisted by fly by wire controls (exactly this control doesn't allow MIG also the latter simply retrofitted designs marked 4++ to turn at G9).

I would be curious about where you heard that? Considering I live less than 45 minutes for Langley AFB (home of half the US East Coast Raptor squadrons, which are the ones that would go to Europe) and have several friends that are Air Force members and stationed at Langley, I have never heard of this happening.

Too much TV. Propoganda does a lot of fake news... lol

 

[Ebo]

@Komshija
I was there when that happned with the F 117, but that a quater of a centruy ago, a lot has happened since then.
Just look at all the crap the russians have sold to other countries arround the world to keep them save, it might function but it cant hit...end of story.

In Libya 4-5 years ago, all of his airforce was destroyed, my country did some of that, even before they came of the ground. All he had was russian made.

 

[BarbaricSoul]

I think that this was from UAE and was shot near the Syrian-Jordanian border three or four years ago - at the very start of Syrian proxy war. I remember that Syrian and even Jordanian sources confirmed that. That happened pretty much at the same time when Russia? or Syria? shot down four US Tomahawk missiles targeting Syrian infrastructure.

Eh, I can't find any information on it. Find it very hard to believe that the first air kill of a Raptor was not made world news instantly. No Government could have suppressed that information throughout the whole world.

@Komshija
I was there when that happned with the F 117, but that a quater of a centruy ago, a lot has happened since then.
Just look at all the crap the russians have sold to other countries arround the world to keep them save, it might function but it cant hit...end of story.

In Libya 4-5 years ago, all of his airforce was destroyed, my country did some of that, even before they came of the ground. All he had was russian made.

Let's not forget how fast we (the USA) completely destroyed Iraq as well. I joined the Navy at the beginning of that war, and it was over before I got out of boot camp.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

Grippen was the first to fall, then eurofighter, french Rafale is also 4th generation fighter which were not going to have this is 5th.
We dont care about the money, and politics is politics, but we wanted the best for the money we were going to spend on new fighters

Nothing from the eastern side has ever come out that can surpass the west, and thats the trouth even if you dont wanna belive it.
Just look at F-22 that plane has been service for years now,, and nothing from Russia or China has even come close to be in the same league, and thats a fact.

Gripen is CHEAP -- Its a good bit cheaper then a Eurofighter Typhoon & Rafale and also much cheaper to run. Its very much an inferior plane in every way to the Typhoon and Rafale though. Gripen is like the 'poor man's' Typhoon/Rafale

 

[Divide Overflow]

There have been some impressive flights from a number of great looking aircraft so far this year's show. What's amusing is the F-35 can go out and show in public a hint of it's true performance and detractors continue to bash it on grounds it demonstratively disproves. Underestimating your opponent is the first step to defeat!

 

[Joss]

We all know how our European politicians operate and who controls them

Unfortunately most people don't yet realise the level of corruption and submission Western politics fell into the last 30 odd years.
Yes, the F-35 is a flop, same with other military projects like the Zumwalt destroyers; we're in for a nasty surprise if we confront ourselves with Russia one day.
But as the reaction in this forum shows the barrage of propaganda we are fed with is very effective.

 

[cdawall]

I love these threads when people who have never even touched an aircraft argue specs found on Google.