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Intel Core i7 8700K Reportedly Reaches 4.8 GHz Easily, 5 GHz+ Requires Delid

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the director of Intel officially stated that the solder will no more ever, they do not see in it the needs!
Intel as the company degrade:
Savings on textolite, it became thinner
Savings on the thermal interface
Savings on the cooling system (previously there was always a cooler in the kit)
Savings on quality conductors, less gold
 

eidairaman1

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Funny how Intel is talking about clocks again... 5.0GHz? I'm on air without extreme modding to reach that.
 
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phanbuey, did you read the article I posted? I'm not the one making the case for solder as the TIM being more prone to failure, the nice people at overclocking.guide are. I was just relaying what I read as it's a counterpoint to the author's position that Intel is only doing this for the money. Also, I did not use the XBOX 360 RROD fiasco as proof of why solder TIM is a bad idea, I gave it as an example of solder failing under thermal load. Before that post, the mood of this thread was derision at the mere thought that solder instead of paste could cause problems. You need to respect the difference between an example of general solder failure rather than a link in my argument. I know why everyone jumped on the 360 stuff though, that's a lot easier to argue against than the analysis in the article I posted, which is pretty solid.

To your point about thermal paste drying out, it won't dry out in a sealed environment like a heatspreader, or at least not for decades. Where is the moisture going to go?

Thanks for being civil while arguing against me, it's a lot easier to have a discussion when people aren't throwing "troll" and "ignore list" around.

I did go back and read the article - and I realized after i read your initial post what you actually meant.
My problem with the article was that his statements are unfounded: "Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs."


He is mainly implying that die size is a relevant factor, which is not true because Skylake-X are gigantic dies, and they are still TIM'ed - so that is already a warning that he is being pretty liberal with his assumptions. Also, solder cracks - but with a professional application, you won't have voids, and specially designed compounds shouldn't crack if they are specc'd to handle the thermal load.

What this article says is "If you solder your CPU, which wasn't designed to be soldered, in your house using compounds designed for general purpose soldering and a heatspreader that is not properly spaced, it will probably crack and you will break your CPU" = which is 100% true. But the assertion that this also happens to professional grade sTIMs is iffy, and that when it does it actually breaks the chip is even iffier.

regarding the TIM:
Where is the moisture going to go?
- the fact that there is "moisture" coming off of the thermal paste would make me think that it is chemically separating (take with a grain of salt) - it won't leave the area of the heatspreader, but it may (or may not) find its way back to where it needs to be within the TIM and be re-absorbed into the compound.

Ultimately we just don't know why intel chose TIM, but if I was a betting man it would be cost / manufacturing constraints and not because sTIM are more or less reliable than TIMs. I do appreciate the counterpoint, that there is a +/- to any technique....
 
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Funny how Intel is talking about clocks again... 5.0GHz? I'm on air without extreme modding to reach that.

And with a fairly old architecture on a fairly antiquated manufacturing process.
 

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And with a fairly old architecture on a fairly antiquated manufacturing process.

Considering the 9370 and 9590 needed water...

My point being is after Ryzen came about Intel started pushing "5.0GHz" also older architectures don't typically clock better...
 
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Well , achieving high clocks is tricky business , but on today's nodes it isn't that amazing to have a chip running at 5 Ghz.
 
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You claimed the Xbox 360's high failure rate was due to those "micro-cracks". Which is simply false , the low temperature solder Microsoft used would easily reach the melting point due to poor cooling causing the solder points to deform and ultimately brake connection.

Sorry but this is incorrect. All solder has a melting point well beyond the operating temperature of the components BECAUSE it could melt otherwise. In the case of the 360 it actually may have helped if the balls softened; those cracks would seal up then.


Just read that article. It is somewhat well researched yet comes to a completely wrong conclusion. I happen to know a few things about chip design and packaging (don't ask how). For example there is no need for Indium in bonding the die to the IHS. As shown in the article's Figure 7 both the top of the die and underside of the IHS are gold plated. Any solder can join gold to gold.

I should point out that there are decades old power electronics which use solder connections and they still run just fine, and the connections (like in the Xbox 360) suffer a much greater thermal gradient than solder between a die and IHS.
 
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It's not really valid to suggest that Intel is using TIM on processors just to save money. Soldering chips to heat spreaders is a great way to get rid of heat, but the solder itself will degrade faster than TIM and Intel is in the business of supplying chips for a lot of long-duration, intensive tasks, such as enterprise servers. If Intel can hit thermal targets with TIM and have the chips last longer, I'm sure they don't care that enthusiasts have to delid their chips for a scant 200 MHz of extra speed.
Thank you!
 
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The news editors on TPU are doing a great job flame war baiting most of you guys....

Regardless of whats between the silicon and heatspreader, the 8700K will be a great processor even at stock speeds.
 
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Sorry but this is incorrect. All solder has a melting point well beyond the operating temperature of the components BECAUSE it could melt otherwise. In the case of the 360 it actually may have helped if the balls softened; those cracks would seal up then.

Certainly not all. There are solder alloys that can melt at around ~110C. Totally within the reach of overheating computer chips. Microsoft seems to have used extremely poor quality solder in conjunction with very poor cooling as well. Which explains why a re-flow would sometimes not even last a couple of days , there is no way cracks that develop that slowly would be the cause of that.
 
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My point being is after Ryzen came about Intel started pushing "5.0GHz" also older architectures don't typically clock better...

Kaby Lake precedes Ryzen, no?
Regardless of whats between the silicon and heatspreader, the 8700K will be a great processor even at stock speeds.

Most processors now are, AMD included. It's a good time for us enthusiasts.
 
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There are solder alloys that can melt at around 100C. Totally within the reach of overheating computer chips. Microsoft seems to have used extremely poor quality solder in conjunction with very poor cooling as well. Which explains why a re-flow would sometimes not even last a couple of days , there is no way cracks that develop that slowly would be the cause of that.

There are solder alloys that melt even lower than that but they're not used for electronics. As for the reflow it very much depends on how it is done (an oven doesn't cut it). You're actually supposed to reball a BGA for proper reflow.
 
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Low solder is definitely used for electronics. For mounting some BGA chips such alloys are in fact used.

You are supposed to use the right tool for the right job. Clearly that didn't happen in 360's case , MS tried to cut cost using poor materials and poor designs , it bit them back hard.
 
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Here, I think you missed this article I posted and we're all discussing. Maybe you want to actually read it this time. Why are you even bringing up electrical conductivity... The whole point is that cracking solder between the heatspreader and the processor will lead to hotspots on the processor and could kill it. I'd like to see you reflow the solder on a processor after the solder has begun to degrade.

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/
Peice of piss with the right gear and no im busy your still wrong , vapour isn't arsed about gaps i assure you it gets out ,tim dries , it looses efficiency and solder is significantly longer lasting.
Even despite the silicone glue seal it'll get out physics says so.
 
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Yes I know the Xbox did not fail due to soldered heatsink failure. It did fail due to cracking solder. Which everyone else is saying isn't a problem. Clearly it is. Solder can crack anywhere due to heat/cool cycles, including between a $2000 server CPU and its head spreader.

Intel did the math and figured they would save warranty money and have a more reliable product if it didn't have the risk of cracking solder at the major thermal interface.

You guys really suck at reading comprehension by the way, I never said the Xbox failed due to solder in the heatspreader failing. I pointed to it as one of the most famous examples of solder failure messing up a product's reliability. Now put on your synthesis hats and apply that experience, of solder failing, to a different application of solder. I know you can.

You do realize that mobile parts have been soldered forever. Every component on the PCB is soldered. You are sitting here telling us that Intel is right and the entirety of the rest of the industry is wrong. I have a 1960's amp sitting right next to me that was hand soldered. Only in rare cases does solder fail. TIM on the other hand is KNOWN to dry out after only a handful of years

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/311177-does-thermal-paste-dry-out/
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=518026
http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-3277572/thermal-paste-dries.html

In addition, TIM is much more susceptible to air pockets, either during application or over time. Last, the more heat applied to TIM the quicker it dries. The same applies to solder but solder has an order of magnitude greater durability. Even mined on video cards take at least 5 years for whitening to start occurring. The thermal paste on the other hand has to be replaced every 2 months on a 24/7 card. You can stop bullshitting everyone, Intel isn't some magic child that knows something about TIM no one else does.
 
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Stop feeding the troll.
 
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Low solder is definitely used for electronics. For mounting some BGA chips such alloys are in fact used.

You are supposed to use the right tool for the right job. Clearly that didn't happen in 360's case , MS tried to cut cost using poor materials and poor designs , it bit them back hard.

I'll believe you if you have an example. Low melting point solders are generally more expensive than higher melting point solders especially if they are lead free (required for RoHS compliance) and generally do contain Indium. ChipQuick for example is a low melting point 'solder' generally used to remove SMD components from a board and it costs several times what normal solder does.
 
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I'll believe you if you have an example. Low melting point solders are generally more expensive than higher melting point solders especially if they are lead free (required for RoHS compliance) and generally do contain Indium. ChipQuick for example is a low melting point 'solder' generally used to remove SMD components from a board and it costs several times what normal solder does.

And I'm curious what explanation you have for what happened with the 360 ? They used top quality high melting point solder , no ?
 

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TIM really isnt the issue. The black glue shit they use that once it gets hot, it expands a bit and then makes it so that there isn't as good of contact between the die and the IHS.
 
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Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
Thats a new one... :)

Height of the ihs off the die is an issue due to that glue, but i dont recall hearing about it expanding.. just that they are too high/helps when its removed as its slightly close to the die.
 
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And I'm curious what explanation you have for what happened with the 360 ? They used top quality high melting point solder , no ?

High melting point solder can still be low quality :).
 
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Thats a new one... :)

Height of the ihs off the die is an issue due to that glue, but i dont recall hearing about ot expanding.. just that they are too high.

I think that intel are actually lizard people... and that thier plan is to divide and conquer by giving us fast but thermally inferior processors.
 
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Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
Probably dating myself bere but... "V"

e65f5fdbee1ea105d4df794b9104de74---s-tv-series.jpg
 
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High melting point solder can still be low quality :).

And what happened with this low quality solder ? How did the solder points fail ? Did they crack out of no where ? Come on man , don't keep me on edge.
 
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