• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Editorial NVIDIA: Image Quality for DLSS in Metro Exodus to Be Improved in Further Updates, and the Nature of the Beast

Raevenlord

News Editor
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
3,755 (1.34/day)
Location
Portugal
System Name The Ryzening
Processor AMD Ryzen 9 5900X
Motherboard MSI X570 MAG TOMAHAWK
Cooling Lian Li Galahad 360mm AIO
Memory 32 GB G.Skill Trident Z F4-3733 (4x 8 GB)
Video Card(s) Gigabyte RTX 3070 Ti
Storage Boot: Transcend MTE220S 2TB, Kintson A2000 1TB, Seagate Firewolf Pro 14 TB
Display(s) Acer Nitro VG270UP (1440p 144 Hz IPS)
Case Lian Li O11DX Dynamic White
Audio Device(s) iFi Audio Zen DAC
Power Supply Seasonic Focus+ 750 W
Mouse Cooler Master Masterkeys Lite L
Keyboard Cooler Master Masterkeys Lite L
Software Windows 10 x64
NVIDIA, in a blog post/Q&A on its DLSS technology, promised implementation and image quality improvements on its Metro Exodus rendition of the technology. If you'll remember, AMD recently vouched for other, non-proprietary ways of achieving desired quality of AA technology across resolutions such as TAA and SMAA, saying that DLSS introduces "(...) image artefacts caused by the upscaling and harsh sharpening." NVIDIA in its blog post has dissected DLSS in its implementation, also clarifying some lingering questions on the technology and its resolution limitations that some us here at TPU had already wondered about.

The blog post describes some of the limitations in DLSS technology, and why exactly image quality issues might be popping out here and there in titles. As we knew from NVIDIA's initial RTX press briefing, DLSS basically works on top of an NVIDIA neural network. Titled the NGX, it processes millions of frames from a single game at varying resolutions, with DLSS, and compares it to a given "ground truth image" - the highest quality possible output sans any shenanigans, generated from just pure raw processing power. The objective is to train the network towards generating this image without the performance cost. This DLSS model is then made available for NVIDIA's client to download and to be run at your local RTX graphics card level, which is why DLSS image quality can be improved with time. And it also helps explain why closed implementations of the technology, such as 3D Mark's Port Royal benchmark, show such incredible image quality scenarios compared to, say, Metro Exodus - there is a very, very limited number of frames that the neural network needs to process towards achieving the best image quality.



Forumites: This is an Editorial



The nature of DLSS means that the network needs to be trained for every conceivable resolution, since different rendering resolutions will require different processing for the image to resemble the ground truth we're looking for. This is the reason for Metro Exodus' limits in DLSS - it's likely that NVIDIA didn't actually choose not to enable it at 1080p with RTX off, it was just a case of the rendering time on its NGX cluster not being enough, in time for launch, to cover all of the most popular resolutions, with or without RTX, across its three available settings. So NVIDIA mated both settings, to allow the greatest image quality and performance improvements for those gamers that want to use RTX effects, and didn't train the network for non-RTX scenarios.



This brings with it a whole lot of questions - how long exactly does NVIDIA's neural network take to train an entire game's worth of DLSS integration? With linear titles, this is likely a great technology - but apply this to an open-world setting (oh hey, like Metro Exodus) and this seems like an incredibly daunting task. NVIDIA had this to say on its blog post:

For Metro Exodus, we've got an update coming that improves DLSS sharpness and overall image quality across all resolutions that didn't make it into day of launch. We're also training DLSS on a larger cross section of the game, and once these updates are ready you will see another increase in quality. Lastly, we are looking into a few other reported issues, such as with HDR, and will update as soon as we have fixes.

So this not only speaks to NVIDIA recognizing that DLSS image quality isn't at the level it's supposed to be (which implies it can actually degrade image quality, giving further credence to AMD's remarks on the matter), but also confirms that they're constantly working on improving DLSS' performance and image quality - and more interestingly, that this is something they can always change, server-side. I'd question the sustainability of DLSS' usage, though; the number of DLSS-enabled games is low enough as it is - and yet NVIDIA seems to be having difficuly in keeping up even when it comes to AAA releases. Imagine if DLSS picked up like NVIDIA would like it (or would they?) and expand to most of the launched games. Looking at what we know, I don't even think that scenario of support would be possible - NVIDIA's neural network would be bottlenecked with all the processing time required for these games, their different rendering resolutions and RTX settings.



DLSS really is a very interesting technology that empowers the RTX graphics card of every user with the power of the cloud, as NVIDIA said it did. However, there are certainly some quirks that require more processing time than they've been given, and there are limits to how much processing power NVIDIA can and will dedicate to each title. That the network needs to be trained again and again and again for every new title out there bodes well for a controlled, NVIDIA-fed games development environment, but that's not the real world - especially not with an AMD-led console market. I'd question DLSS' longevity and success on these factors alone, whilst praising its technology and forward-thinking design immensely.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
20,902 (5.97/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor i7 8700k 4.6Ghz @ 1.24V
Motherboard AsRock Fatal1ty K6 Z370
Cooling beQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 3
Memory 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200/C16
Video Card(s) ASRock RX7900XT Phantom Gaming
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 830 256GB + Crucial BX100 250GB + Toshiba 1TB HDD
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Fractal Design Define R5
Audio Device(s) Harman Kardon AVR137 + 2.1
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse XTRFY M42
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II
Software W10 x64
I don't know but this whole DLSS affair sounds a lot like swinging a very blunt object at a very intricate problem, hoping at some point it hits the right button. I get the idea, but the result is só much work, look at the amount of games released in a year, what is Nvidia going to do, build an NGX box for each one? And for how long?

It depends way too much on that continued investment. They have had months now and all we got is three games... that are still not what they should be.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
20,902 (5.97/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor i7 8700k 4.6Ghz @ 1.24V
Motherboard AsRock Fatal1ty K6 Z370
Cooling beQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 3
Memory 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200/C16
Video Card(s) ASRock RX7900XT Phantom Gaming
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 830 256GB + Crucial BX100 250GB + Toshiba 1TB HDD
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Fractal Design Define R5
Audio Device(s) Harman Kardon AVR137 + 2.1
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse XTRFY M42
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II
Software W10 x64
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
11,681 (1.73/day)
System Name Compy 386
Processor 7800X3D
Motherboard Asus
Cooling Air for now.....
Memory 64 GB DDR5 6400Mhz
Video Card(s) 7900XTX 310 Merc
Storage Samsung 990 2TB, 2 SP 2TB SSDs and over 10TB spinning
Display(s) 56" Samsung 4K HDR
Audio Device(s) ATI HDMI
Mouse Logitech MX518
Keyboard Razer
Software A lot.
Benchmark Scores Its fast. Enough.
Dude where's my AA
 

Raevenlord

News Editor
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
3,755 (1.34/day)
Location
Portugal
System Name The Ryzening
Processor AMD Ryzen 9 5900X
Motherboard MSI X570 MAG TOMAHAWK
Cooling Lian Li Galahad 360mm AIO
Memory 32 GB G.Skill Trident Z F4-3733 (4x 8 GB)
Video Card(s) Gigabyte RTX 3070 Ti
Storage Boot: Transcend MTE220S 2TB, Kintson A2000 1TB, Seagate Firewolf Pro 14 TB
Display(s) Acer Nitro VG270UP (1440p 144 Hz IPS)
Case Lian Li O11DX Dynamic White
Audio Device(s) iFi Audio Zen DAC
Power Supply Seasonic Focus+ 750 W
Mouse Cooler Master Masterkeys Lite L
Keyboard Cooler Master Masterkeys Lite L
Software Windows 10 x64

bug

Joined
May 22, 2015
Messages
13,210 (4.06/day)
Processor Intel i5-12600k
Motherboard Asus H670 TUF
Cooling Arctic Freezer 34
Memory 2x16GB DDR4 3600 G.Skill Ripjaws V
Video Card(s) EVGA GTX 1060 SC
Storage 500GB Samsung 970 EVO, 500GB Samsung 850 EVO, 1TB Crucial MX300 and 2TB Crucial MX500
Display(s) Dell U3219Q + HP ZR24w
Case Raijintek Thetis
Audio Device(s) Audioquest Dragonfly Red :D
Power Supply Seasonic 620W M12
Mouse Logitech G502 Proteus Core
Keyboard G.Skill KM780R
Software Arch Linux + Win10
You really didn't think of a "too soon to tell" option? Then again maybe you're right. I mean we have now like 3 titles to go by.
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2016
Messages
171 (0.06/day)
Location
Sthlm
System Name Vamos
Processor Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard Gigabyte B450 I Aorus Pro WiFi
Cooling Dark Rock Slim
Memory 2x8GB XPG 3600MHz
Video Card(s) RX 5700 XT PowerColor
Storage WD SN550 1TB, Seagate 2TB HDD
Display(s) AOC CQ32G1
Case Jonsbo V8
Audio Device(s) Logitech G633, Presonus E3.5
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion SFX-L 650W Gold
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Logitech G513 Carbon
Software Win 10 Home
Don't know why TPU keeps using this image from Port Royal bench, when all images from real games show DLSS to be WAY more blurry.
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
338 (0.10/day)
Location
Marabá - Pará - Brazil
System Name KarymidoN TitaN
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5700X
Motherboard ASUS TUF X570
Cooling Custom Watercooling Loop
Memory 2x Kingston FURY RGB 16gb @ 3200mhz 18-20-20-39
Video Card(s) MSI GTX 1070 GAMING X 8GB
Storage Kingston NV2 1TB| 4TB HDD
Display(s) 4X 1080P LG Monitors
Case Thermaltake Core V71
Power Supply Corsair TX 600
Mouse Logitech G300S
Hardware Unboxed says (and shows) it's best...
DLSS = Resolution upscale...
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
25,559 (6.49/day)
yawnfest 2019
Did you actually look at the example screen shots? That is not "yawnfest". That is very cool and an improvement worthy of recognition.

Don't know why TPU keeps using this image from Port Royal bench, when all images from real games show DLSS to be WAY more blurry.
I've seen it upfront & personal, and no it isn't.

Hardware Unboxed says (and shows) it's best...
DLSS = Resolution upscale...
The only thing that is a "fail" with that video is the testing and analyzation methodology.
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
338 (0.10/day)
Location
Marabá - Pará - Brazil
System Name KarymidoN TitaN
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5700X
Motherboard ASUS TUF X570
Cooling Custom Watercooling Loop
Memory 2x Kingston FURY RGB 16gb @ 3200mhz 18-20-20-39
Video Card(s) MSI GTX 1070 GAMING X 8GB
Storage Kingston NV2 1TB| 4TB HDD
Display(s) 4X 1080P LG Monitors
Case Thermaltake Core V71
Power Supply Corsair TX 600
Mouse Logitech G300S
The only thing that is a "fail" with that video is the testing and analyzation methodology.

pardon mr. tech specalist, how would you do it then? explain it to us mere mortals
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2016
Messages
171 (0.06/day)
Location
Sthlm
System Name Vamos
Processor Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard Gigabyte B450 I Aorus Pro WiFi
Cooling Dark Rock Slim
Memory 2x8GB XPG 3600MHz
Video Card(s) RX 5700 XT PowerColor
Storage WD SN550 1TB, Seagate 2TB HDD
Display(s) AOC CQ32G1
Case Jonsbo V8
Audio Device(s) Logitech G633, Presonus E3.5
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion SFX-L 650W Gold
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Logitech G513 Carbon
Software Win 10 Home
Did you actually look at the example screen shots? That is not "yawnfest". That is very cool and an improvement worthy of recognition.


I've seen it upfront & personal, and no it isn't.


The only thing that is a "fail" with that video is the testing and analyzation methodology.
Oh, do share with us the right methodology video, please, I can not find it myself anywhere.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2015
Messages
3,984 (1.20/day)
System Name Wut?
Processor 3900X
Motherboard ASRock Taichi X570
Cooling Water
Memory 32GB GSkill CL16 3600mhz
Video Card(s) Vega 56
Storage 2 x AData XPG 8200 Pro 1TB
Display(s) 3440 x 1440
Case Thermaltake Tower 900
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Ultra Platinum
Need some work on these polls guys. Most of the time, all the answers lean in one direction or another.

If DLSS looked like the Port Royal example instead of all the screenshots we get from actual game play then I might actually buy an 2000 series.
 

Space Lynx

Astronaut
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
15,890 (4.58/day)
Location
Kepler-186f
Need some work on these polls guys. Most of the time, all the answers lean in one direction or another.

If DLSS looked like the Port Royal example instead of all the screenshots we get from actual game play then I might actually buy an 2000 series.

DLSS only works for 4k gaming I thought? your monitor is 1440.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2015
Messages
3,984 (1.20/day)
System Name Wut?
Processor 3900X
Motherboard ASRock Taichi X570
Cooling Water
Memory 32GB GSkill CL16 3600mhz
Video Card(s) Vega 56
Storage 2 x AData XPG 8200 Pro 1TB
Display(s) 3440 x 1440
Case Thermaltake Tower 900
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Ultra Platinum
DLSS only works for 4k gaming I thought? your monitor is 1440.

My monitor sucks and I am going to drop it like it's a hot potato when the monitor I want goes under $900. That said, I don't think it is the res that determine when it can be active but rather the frame rate.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
85 (0.04/day)
Damn you all, I thought I had messed up somewhere in the article :slap::laugh:

You did. You need to correct ur spelling Graphicvs card.

Did you actually look at the example screen shots? That is not "yawnfest". That is very cool and an improvement worthy of recognition.


I've seen it upfront & personal, and no it isn't.


The only thing that is a "fail" with that video is the testing and analyzation methodology.

If you have seen it in person and are okay with it....you need to have ur eyes checked my friend.
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
19,366 (3.71/day)
Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
It really depends on the implementation... it will improve with time.. look at how optimized 3dmark is and how good it looks.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
85 (0.04/day)
#1: DLSS at 4k | #2:1600p on 4k screen | #3: 4k |
Metro  Exodus Screenshot DLSS.png
Metro  Exodus Screenshot 4k.png
Metro  Exodus Screenshot 4k.png


As u guys can see DLSS is not only blurry, it also washes out the color. The wrench at the bottom doesnt look as black in DLSS. ITS GARBAGE.
 

Attachments

  • Metro  Exodus Screenshot 1600p.png
    Metro Exodus Screenshot 1600p.png
    680.3 KB · Views: 289
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
19,366 (3.71/day)
Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
We get it. :)

Did you read what nvidia has said on how it works and how over time it will get better as it learns? Have you seen what it does in 3dmark and why? It's in the first post. :)
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
3,881 (0.89/day)
We get it. :)

Did you read what nvidia has said on how it works and how over time it will get better as it learns? Have you seen what it does in 3dmark and why? It's in the first post. :)

Out of curiosity has anyone done independent test on the Port Royal? All i can find is the Promo stuff from UL and Nvidia.
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
19,366 (3.71/day)
Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
Good point. None I know of.. I ran it with DLSS and it looked just as good (if that means anything). But I havent done a side by side. ;)
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
3,881 (0.89/day)
Good point. None I know of.. I ran it with DLSS and it looked just as good (if that means anything). But I havent done a side by side. ;)

I seen side-by-side runs. I meant has anyone done an in-depth to see if the settings and implementations are good (on vs off)
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
19,366 (3.71/day)
Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
Not sure I know what you are getting at...

Like settings the same between the two runs outside of dlss?
 
Top