MSI Betrays AMD's Socket AM4 Longevity Promise: No Zen2 for 300-series?

[Keullo-e]

What time?

Intel:
DDR3:
- 2007-2008: LGA775 (30/40 series), Core2Duo/Quad - Technically DDR3 but most boards were DDR2
- 2009-2010: s1156 (50 series), Nehalem
- 2011-2012: s1155 (60/70 series), Sandy/Ivy Bridge
- 2013-2014: s1150 (80/90 series), Haswell/Haswell Refresh/Broadwell
DDR4:
- 2015-2016: s1151 (100/200 series), Skylake/Kaby Lake
- 2017-2018: s1151v2 (300 series), Coffee Lake/Coffee Lake Refresh

AMD:
DDR3:
- 2007-2008: AM2/AM2+/AM3 (600/700 series) - DDR2/DDR3, based on socket
- 2010-2011: AM3/AM3+ (800/900 series)
DDR4:
- 2017-2018: AM4 (300/400 series)

AMD practically was not competing for about 5 years there.

Whey they should have made new chipsets, since they didn't make any new CPUs? They had the FX lineup as the top series from 2012 to 2017..

 

[londiste]

Whey they should have made new chipsets, since they didn't make any new CPUs? They had the FX lineup as the top series from 2012 to 2017..

They had no reason to create new chipsets or sockets during that time.
The point was it is not exactly fair to compare this directly to amount of chipsets Intel produced during the same time in order to support CPUs that had comparatively more changes in them.

 

[Keullo-e]

They had no reason to create new chipsets or sockets during that time.
The point was it is not exactly fair to compare this directly to amount of chipsets Intel produced during the same time in order to support CPUs that had comparatively more changes in them.

Ah, then I exactly agree with you.

 

[notb]

They had no reason to create new chipsets or sockets during that time.
The point was it is not exactly fair to compare this directly to amount of chipsets Intel produced during the same time in order to support CPUs that had comparatively more changes in them.

Yup. Looking at the period when AMD and Intel offered similar products, they also had similar chipset/socket lifetimes.
If it turns out AM4 covers just 3 generations (and 3rd one just partly), then it won't be much better than what Intel has been doing lately.

It's a bit like when Ryzen came out and AMD fanboys shouted: +50% in one generation! Intel does +5%!
:-D

 

[Keullo-e]

It's a bit like when Ryzen came out and AMD fanboys shouted: +50% in one generation! Intel does +5%!
:-D

At least there's IPC boost, not like Intel where there's just MOAR CORES and higher clocks. The IPC is identical since Skylake.

 

[notb]

At least there's IPC boost, not like Intel where there's just MOAR CORES and higher clocks. The IPC is identical since Skylake.

The "empirical" properties are important: performance, price, size and power consumption. It doesn't matter how the manufacturer gets there. Why do you care so much? Other than discrediting Intel, obviously.

In recent years Intel made architectural choices that let them utilize high clocks (and constantly improve them).
AMD, when going from FX to Ryzen, focused on IPC, but sacrificed clocks.
2 different approaches, same aim: more performance.

And what do you think about AVX-512? Does it tick your need for IPC improvement?

Currently AMD is in the phase of increasing clocks and core count (Zen 2). Intel is working on a new architecture (Ice Lake).
This makes me wonder:
If Ice Lake gives us big IPC increase, will you praise shift to praising Intel?

 

[Keullo-e]

I had Intel CPUs pretty many years in my main rig; last AMD chip in my gaming PC was Phenom II X4 965 BE from 2011-2013. Went with Z68 -> Z87 -> Z170 -> X99 before going back to AMD.

AMD, when going from FX to Ryzen, focused on IPC, but sacrificed clocks.

Just like Intel did when they moved from Pentium D to Core 2 Duo. Everything was better; lower power consumption, much better performance..

If Ice Lake gives us big IPC increase, will you praise shift to praising Intel?

Hard to say, but if it's like they did with Kaby -> Coffee that they fked up compatibility (even though the architecture is 100% identical de facto, and people has showed the middle finger back to Intel with modified Z170/Z270 motherboards), then nope.

 

[EarthDog]

So many riding the soap box of justice... its cute.

 

[notb]

I had Intel CPUs pretty many years in my main rig; last AMD chip in my gaming PC was Phenom II X4 965 BE from 2011-2013. Went with Z68 -> Z87 -> Z170 -> X99 before going back to AMD.

And this is important to mention because...?

Just like Intel did when they moved from Pentium D to Core 2 Duo. Everything was better; lower power consumption, much better performance..

Of course. That's why you design a new architecture - to have a big leap in whatever can be improved.

But new architecture is a big investment. You have to keep selling it for years to make the whole venture profitable. Potential for improvement in that period is very limited.

Next big architectural leap for Intel will come with Ice Lake (or whatever it's called). It will be a totally new product much like Ryzen has been: both architecture on node (at least it should be...). The improvement could be enormous.

Hard to say, but if it's like they did with Kaby -> Coffee that they fked up compatibility (even though the architecture is 100% identical de facto, and people has showed the middle finger back to Intel with modified Z170/Z270 motherboards), then nope.

You see. So you're not really after performance or IPC. You simply don't like the way Intel does their business. You're ready to buy a potentially worse product from a competition that you find more "morally acceptable".

To be honest, I have nothing against it. You're right.
I buy the slightly more expensive chicken because I've been to a low-cost farm and thinking about it makes me want to vomit. But it's a totally irrational choice economically speaking. I have no proof that the meat is healthier or tastier. I even don't know if that kind of farming is bad for birds. Maybe chickens like to be herded in small space, covered in shit? No one ever asked them.

It's just nice when people admit what their true reasons are. No excuses about IPC and dwarves.

 

[Keullo-e]

I won't even bother continuing, this is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks off the pieces, craps on the table and claims victory.

 

[notb]

I won't even bother continuing, this is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks off the pieces, craps on the table and claims victory.

Well, if you have no more arguments, why not say it? It's just like with the CPU choice. What's the point of all these excuses? IPC, pigeons?

 

[BetrayerX]

Probably I'm late (Over 200 comments), but:
https://www.msi.com/news/detail/4c78f7b58f4de12ed2cab9bcb9ec0ba0

 

[lexluthermiester]

Probably I'm late (Over 200 comments), but:
https://www.msi.com/news/detail/4c78f7b58f4de12ed2cab9bcb9ec0ba0

Nice! Welcome to the TPU forums!

 

[notb]

Nice! Welcome to the TPU forums!

It's the same information MSI put in e-mails. And probably not really on topic, since it seems APUs will be Zen+.

Where are Ryzen 3000-series (Zen2) expected to launch anyway? Q3?

 

[Patriot]

Probably I'm late (Over 200 comments), but:
https://www.msi.com/news/detail/4c78f7b58f4de12ed2cab9bcb9ec0ba0

Of note, they are not confirming Zen 2 support, only intentions to support it on boards that prove compatible.
They are also confirming as many have postulated that the new roms that have recently arrived are for the Zen+ 3000 series APU's not Zen 2.

I would expect mixed compatibility for higher tdp chips and perhaps not all boards getting top slot pcie 4 certification.
Time will tell what turns out to be true... Hopefully in the next 3mo.
It is in the best interest of the board manufacturers to give a reason to upgrade and a reason to stay brand loyal...

 

[notb]

It is in the best interest of the board manufacturers to give a reason to upgrade and a reason to stay brand loyal...

Not exactly. They all make very similar products. Clients move around, but have to buy something anyway. In such markets brand loyalty has lower priority. You aim the customers you find most attractive.

Especially for a company like MSI, specializing in gaming products and selling countless different things (both electronics and gadgets/apparel), it makes a lot of sense to cater towards people that spend a lot.

 

[Melvis]

Funny how my Asus B350 got updated to Agesa 0.0.7.2 so does in fact support the new 3000 series, only Asus , ASRock and Biostar have released new Bios updates to the latest Agesa 0.0.7.2 code that was recently released just a few weeks ago, Is it only MSI that does not?

No my MSI X470 Mobo has the new BIOS update sitting there ready for the new 3000Series CPU's its been there for weeks now when MSI announced it

 

[notb]

No my MSI X470 Mobo has the new BIOS update sitting there ready for the new 3000Series CPU's its been there for weeks now when MSI announced it

3000-series APUs.

But being a top last-gen chipset, there's a good chance it'll support Ryzen 3000-series as well.
I mean: if it doesn't, then it would likely mean nothing does and you have to buy a chipset launched for Zen2...

 

[BetrayerX]

Of note, they are not confirming Zen 2 support, only intentions to support it on boards that prove compatible.
They are also confirming as many have postulated that the new roms that have recently arrived are for the Zen+ 3000 series APU's not Zen 2.

I would expect mixed compatibility for higher tdp chips and perhaps not all boards getting top slot pcie 4 certification.
Time will tell what turns out to be true... Hopefully in the next 3mo.
It is in the best interest of the board manufacturers to give a reason to upgrade and a reason to stay brand loyal...

Hardware Unboxed took what I posted as a way to disprove the original article's meeting.

But what you say, I actually agree. Was talking to a friend about it, and you might see problems with the 12/24 and or 18/36 cores versions on some cheaper mobos. But many of those 350's do support 95W and over TDP and most of people overclocking are around 120W TDP give or take. In theory this might make the boards able to support these new CPU, but at the same time... the overclocking capabilities should be put to the test.... and of course, any new features will not be added thru a BIOS update.

Cheers.

 

[lexluthermiester]

only intentions to support it on boards that prove compatible.

Which is, by design, all of them per AMD spec.

But many of those 350's do support 95W and over TDP and most of people overclocking are around 120W TDP give or take. In theory this might make the boards able to support these new CPU, but at the same time... the overclocking capabilities should be put to the test....

Ah but remember, Ryzen 3 is 7nm based, all of them. TDP for each model is reduced not increased so TDP should never be an issue as the boards can handle the wattage requirements of Ryzen1&2 already. Ryzen3 should be a breeze.

 

[notb]

Ah but remember, Ryzen 3 is 7nm based, all of them. TDP for each model is reduced not increased so TDP should never be an issue as the boards can handle the wattage requirements of Ryzen1&2 already. Ryzen3 should be a breeze.

I don't know where do you get all that optimism.

AMD is expected to launch at least 12-core CPUs. Many hope for 16-core.
There is no way 7nm is twice as efficient as 14nm. These CPUs will use more power.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I don't know where do you get all that optimism.

AMD is expected to launch at least 12-core CPUs. Many hope for 16-core.
There is no way 7nm is twice as efficient as 14nm. These CPUs will use more power.

Core for core, power usage WILL be lower. As a package it will depend on how many cores are present, the clock speed and what the rated TDP will be.

 

[Melvis]

3000-series APUs.

But being a top last-gen chipset, there's a good chance it'll support Ryzen 3000-series as well.
I mean: if it doesn't, then it would likely mean nothing does and you have to buy a chipset launched for Zen2...

It will be for all AMD Zen 2 CPU's, if anything it might not be fore the APU's at all, APU's most likely come later

 

[GoldenX]

It will be for all AMD Zen 2 CPU's, if anything it might not be fore the APU's at all, APU's most likely come later

3000 series APUs are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1.

 

[notb]

Core for core, power usage WILL be lower. As a package it will depend on how many cores are present, the clock speed and what the rated TDP will be.

But the discussion is about being able to upgrade to Zen2 - power requirements being one of the probable issues.
I think most people hope that they'll be able to upgrade to more cores - not the same number of them, just using 20% less power.

It will be for all AMD Zen 2 CPU's, if anything it might not be fore the APU's at all, APU's most likely come later

For such an AMD fan, you're quite badly informed.
Currently available BIOS upgrades are for 3000-series APUs, which will be based on Zen+. So basically, it's the same tech these motherboards support already - they just need additional data to detect them.
3000-series APUs will likely be launched in May.

Ryzen 3000-series based on Zen 2 (chiplets, 7nm) is coming later and compatibility with existing motherboards is being investigated by MSI (and surely by other manufacturers as well). Whatever that means. Maybe AMD simply didn't allow them to go public yet.

If older motherboards (chipsets) simply can't work with chiplets, then it's a sad but fairly controllable case - people will have to replace them.
If it's an issue with power supply or something like that, MSI will have to cover the more power hungry 12/16-core CPUs somehow (lock cores, underclock etc).