BIOS ROM Size Limitations Almost Derail AMD's Zen2 Backwards Compatibility Promise

EarthDog · Jul 9, 2019

Midland Dog said:
dont mean to literally crap on the entire thesis of this, but arent bios chips easily swapable?

On some boards you can drop new ones in, sure. That isn't close to a majority though. Most are soldered on the board.

Midland Dog · Jul 9, 2019

EarthDog said:
On some boards you can drop new ones in, sure. That isn't close to a majority though. Most are soldered on the board.

damn, i know my z97 board can, if people have a spare am4 dual bios board someone should attempt a mod, and then patch the uefi together for r_ 3000 support

Sybaris_Caesar · Jul 9, 2019

btarunr said:
Yes, they chose RGB to market over spending $0.7 more on a better SPI chip. Guess what? Enthusiasts will now prefer those brands that chose 256Mb chips way back when designing their 300-series/400-series boards (eg: ASUS, ASRock), over brands that cheaped out (eg: MSI, GbT). Also, those buying a Zen2 processor with a brand new X470 chipset motherboard will avoid boards with 128Mb ROMs like cancer. I'm sure some based nerd on Reddit will compile a list of motherboards with ROM sizes to help others out.

I was thinking of buying either MSI B450M Bazooka Plus or AsRock B450M Steel Legend. But looks like both of them are 16MB bios chips. Even Tomahawk is only 16MB. I don't know what to choose any more.

spectatorx · Jul 9, 2019

Khonjel said:
I was thinking of buying either MSI B450M Bazooka Plus or AsRock B450M Steel Legend. But looks like both of them are 16MB bios chips. Even Tomahawk is only 16MB. I don't know what to choose any more.

If possible wait a bit more, save up a bit more cash and take any motherboard with 32MB eeprom.

I just checked and seems like all asrock's b450 matx motherboards are 16MB but Fatal1ty X470 Gaming-ITX/ac has 32MB module. Yes, i am aware it is itx so probably something what you are not interested in. All gigabyte's matx motherboards are 16MB. Another itx with 32MB is asus ROG STRIX B450-I GAMING. Biostar b450 and x470 matx boards have support for latest zen 2 and there is no info about anything removed from bios so i would assume these have 32MB but they do not list in specification eeprom sizes.

bug · Jul 9, 2019

Khonjel said:
I was thinking of buying either MSI B450M Bazooka Plus or AsRock B450M Steel Legend. But looks like both of them are 16MB bios chips. Even Tomahawk is only 16MB. I don't know what to choose any more.

I'd just wait for the B550 instead

Imsochobo · Jul 9, 2019

I've always disliked the new bios crap.

Simple text menu's is my preference, drop mouse support while at it, make them speedy as they used to be!

TheGuruStud · Jul 9, 2019

The size doesn't even matter. They could make different versions that only support one or the other. Gee, maybe if every board had flashback, then it would be a nonissue 100%.

TheLostSwede · Jul 9, 2019

btarunr said:
I'm sure some based nerd on Reddit will compile a list of motherboards with ROM sizes to help others out.

Yeah, that's already been done. It's not quite complete, but it contains almost all of the collected knowledge of AM4 motherboards on this planet...
Note that it might take a while to load that spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wmsTYK9Z3-jUX5LGRoFnsZYZiW1pfiDZnKCjaXyzd1o/

Judging by that list, no 300-series chipset boards have more than 128Mbit.

Interestingly, that means my board only has 128Mbit, yet Asus still seems to claim support for all features...

Totally · Jul 9, 2019

londiste said:
Two sets of BIOSes will require some type of dual-BIOS switching or Flashback functionalities to be reasonably useful. Getting a different supported CPU to get the BIOS upgraded on the motherboard you just purchased to support a CPU you also just purchased is annoying enough already, making this standard operating procedure is not a good idea.

Most modern mb bios can be flashed without even powering a system on or even having a cpu in the socket.

Dwarden · Jul 9, 2019

i wonder why the manufacturers can't simply make multiple BIOS branches
1. for APUs
- for first gen
- for second gen
2. for CPUs
- for first gen
- for second gen
- for third gen

if the ROM is too small then branching it like this is logical to save as much space as possible
while each of them could be it's own version

same for RAID, i remember times when some controllers and cards
had separated variants of with RAD and w/o RAID due to sizes

of course they could also get rid of theirs graphical logo and loading pictures bloat

now i get the point of all-in-one being simple and risk free, but that does applies only if you got the ROM memory space

R-T-B · Jul 9, 2019

btarunr said:
Re: those talking about price difference:

According to DigiKey, an 8-pin 128Mbit (16 MB) SPI flash ROM chip of the kind used on motherboards starts at $1.31 a piece when bought in bulk reels. A 256Mbit (32 MB) chip in the same form-factor costs $2.04 a piece. Motherboard makers have the bargaining power to bring those prices down even further. Even if not, they're literally 70 cents apart. Motherboard designers could have cut out some RGB crap to make room for a 256Mb chip. They probably wanted forced-obsolescence by telling AMD "it can't be done" when the time came, but failed at that when AMD replied "it can be done, just delete support for older processors and make your setup program smaller."

No one was talking about price differences...

16MB roms are standard and fit nearly everything in the Intel realm (Microcode there is like... in kb size realm). I'm with others, this is more AMD not communicating how much AGESA would bloat. It has nothing to do with pricing or any other grand conspiracy to make us upgrade...

efikkan said:
UEFI is a bloated piece of crap

Not inherenetly, but in pratice, it can be. It is however a security nightmare in 90% of implementations, yes. Not that bios was any better though...

Final_Fighter · Jul 10, 2019

this problem only effects msi and their bloated bioses. if you open any other bios image from say asus, asrock, or biostar youll find that there is plenty of empty space in those bioses. This article really only pertains to msi. everybody else is fine who does not own one of these boards. btw, everybody else uses 16mb roms too.

spectatorx · Jul 10, 2019

Final_Fighter said:
this problem only effects msi and their bloated bioses. if you open any other bios image from say asus, asrock, or biostar youll find that there is plenty of empty space in those bioses. This article really only pertains to msi. everybody else is fine who does not own one of these boards. btw, everybody else uses 16mb roms too.

No, gigabyte also removed support for older APUs but they didn't go that far and didn't remove as crucial functions as raid like msi did.

R-T-B · Jul 10, 2019

Final_Fighter said:
this problem only effects msi and their bloated bioses. if you open any other bios image from say asus, asrock, or biostar youll find that there is plenty of empty space in those bioses. This article really only pertains to msi. everybody else is fine who does not own one of these boards. btw, everybody else uses 16mb roms too.

That explains why my gigabyte modding days on AM4 found space aplenty...

spectatorx said:
No, gigabyte also removed support for older APUs but they didn't go that far and didn't remove as crucial functions as raid like msi did.

If true than the bloat got quite out of hand. My Gigabyte Aorus X370 Gaming 5 had a lot of free space at launch.

Final_Fighter · Jul 10, 2019

spectatorx said:
No, gigabyte also removed support for older APUs but they didn't go that far and didn't remove as crucial functions as raid like msi did.

i just looked at the gigabyte ab350m gamming 3 bioses from before 2nd gen support and now and there is enough space in the bios for them to have not needed to remove anything from it. i think its the manufactures being lazy and not wanting to restructure the bios for older boards. if gigabyte wants to add support back in later on then they should be able too. msi on the other hand needs an entirely new structured lightweight bios but that would cost money that they not willing to invest into an old platform.

Crackong · Jul 10, 2019

TheLostSwede said:
Yeah, that's already been done. It's not quite complete, but it contains almost all of the collected knowledge of AM4 motherboards on this planet...
Note that it might take a while to load that spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wmsTYK9Z3-jUX5LGRoFnsZYZiW1pfiDZnKCjaXyzd1o/

Judging by that list, no 300-series chipset boards have more than 128Mbit.

Interestingly, that means my board only has 128Mbit, yet Asus still seems to claim support for all features...

Same here.
My ASUS x370-i listed in the spreadsheet having 128Mb Flash ROM, BIOS version 5008 running a 3700x so far so good.

Lorec · Jul 10, 2019

TheLostSwede said:
Yeah, that's already been done. It's not quite complete, but it contains almost all of the collected knowledge of AM4 motherboards on this planet...
Note that it might take a while to load that spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wmsTYK9Z3-jUX5LGRoFnsZYZiW1pfiDZnKCjaXyzd1o/

Judging by that list, no 300-series chipset boards have more than 128Mbit.

Interestingly, that means my board only has 128Mbit, yet Asus still seems to claim support for all features...

A god no less prepared that spreadsheet...

zlobby · Jul 10, 2019

All this so manufacturers can save 3c per board... The greed, man!

TheLostSwede · Jul 10, 2019

zlobby said:
All this so manufacturers can save 3c per board... The greed, man!

No, no, you got it wrong. It's so they can spend that money on RGB LEDs, as it's a far more important feature...

spectatorx · Jul 10, 2019

Lorec said:
A god no less prepared that spreadsheet...

According to that spreadsheet even not all x570 are using 32MB modules and many of them have 16MB... That's bad. And some of them are not cheap.

bug · Jul 10, 2019

spectatorx said:
According to that spreadsheet even not all x570 are using 32MB modules and many of them have 16MB... That's bad. And some of them are not cheap.

But the X570 does not need support for the original Zen

spectatorx · Jul 10, 2019

bug said:
But the X570 does not need support for the original Zen

What do you mean by that? As far as i am aware x570 has compatibility from latest ryzen 3xxx series down to first ryzen cpus.

bug · Jul 10, 2019

spectatorx said:
What do you mean by that? As far as i am aware x570 has compatibility from latest ryzen 3xxx series down to first ryzen cpus.

Nope. Look it up on AMD's website: only Zen+ and Zen2 are supported.

spectatorx · Jul 10, 2019

bug said:
Nope. Look it up on AMD's website: only Zen+ and Zen2 are supported.

Ok, you are right indeed:

https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570

evilhf · Jul 10, 2019

I have the msi x370 gaming pro carbon.
last week had released a bios and then updated with my old cpu 1600x 1600x.
worked perfectly with the 1600x until then.
But the following week this bios was removed!
Now I sold my 1600x r5 and bought the 3900x r9, I'm waiting to arrive.
In bios says the following

This BIOS fixes the following problem of the previous version:
- Update AMD ComboPI1.0.0.1
- Support new upcoming AMD cpu.

So my new cpu will work or at least post so that I can upgrade to newer bios?

System Name	Sillicon Nightmares
Processor	Intel i7 9700KF 5ghz (5.1ghz 4 core load, no avx offset), 4.7ghz ring, 1.412vcore 1.3vcio 1.264vcsa
Motherboard	Asus Z390 Strix F
Cooling	DEEPCOOL Gamer Storm CAPTAIN 360
Memory	2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z RGB (B-Die) 3600 14-14-14-28 1t, tRFC 220 tREFI 65535, tFAW 16, 1.545vddq
Video Card(s)	ASUS GTX 1060 Strix 6GB XOC, Core: 2202-2240, Vcore: 1.075v, Mem: 9818mhz (Sillicon Lottery Jackpot)
Storage	Samsung 840 EVO 1TB SSD, WD Blue 1TB, Seagate 3TB, Samsung 970 Evo Plus 512GB
Display(s)	BenQ XL2430 1080p 144HZ + (2) Samsung SyncMaster 913v 1280x1024 75HZ + A Shitty TV For Movies
Case	Deepcool Genome ROG Edition
Audio Device(s)	Bunta Sniff Speakers From The Tip Edition With Extra Kenwoods
Power Supply	Corsair AX860i/Cable Mod Cables
Mouse	Logitech G602 Spilled Beer Edition
Keyboard	Dell KB4021
Software	Windows 10 x64
Benchmark Scores	13543 Firestrike (3dmark.com/fs/22336777) 601 points CPU-Z ST 37.4ns AIDA Memory

System Name	SYBARIS
Processor	AMD Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard	MSI Arsenal Gaming B450 Tomahawk
Cooling	Cryorig H7 Quad Lumi
Memory	Team T-Force Delta RGB 2x8GB 3200CL16
Video Card(s)	Colorful GeForce RTX 2060 6GV2
Storage	Crucial MX500 500GB \| WD Black WD1003FZEX 1TB \| Seagate ST1000LM024 1TB \| WD My Passport Slim 1TB
Display(s)	AOC 24G2 24" 144hz IPS
Case	Montech Air ARGB
Audio Device(s)	Massdrop + Sennheiser PC37X \| QKZ x HBB
Power Supply	Corsair CX650-F
Mouse	Razer Viper Mini \| Cooler Master MM711 \| Logitech G102 \| Logitech G402
Keyboard	Drop + The Lord of the Rings Dwarvish
Software	Windows 10 Education 22H2 x64

System Name	Smooth-Operator
Processor	AMD Ryzen 7 3800x
Motherboard	Asrock x570 Taichi
Cooling	AMD Wraith Prism
Memory	2x16GB 3200MHz CL16@CL14 DDR4
Video Card(s)	Sapphire Radeon RX 580 8GB NITRO+
Storage	2x4TB WD HGST 7K6 7200RPM 256MB
Display(s)	Samsung S24E370DL 24" IPS Freesync 75Hz
Case	Fractal Design Focus G Window Blue
Audio Device(s)	Creative X-Fi Titanium PCIe x1
Power Supply	Corsair HX850 80+ Platinum
Mouse	Gigabyte Aorus M3
Keyboard	Zalman ZM-K300M
Software	Windows 10 x64 Enterprise/Ubuntu Budgie amd64

Processor	Intel i5-12600k
Motherboard	Asus H670 TUF
Cooling	Arctic Freezer 34
Memory	2x16GB DDR4 3600 G.Skill Ripjaws V
Video Card(s)	EVGA GTX 1060 SC
Storage	500GB Samsung 970 EVO, 500GB Samsung 850 EVO, 1TB Crucial MX300 and 2TB Crucial MX500
Display(s)	Dell U3219Q + HP ZR24w
Case	Raijintek Thetis
Audio Device(s)	Audioquest Dragonfly Red :D
Power Supply	Seasonic 620W M12
Mouse	Logitech G502 Proteus Core
Keyboard	G.Skill KM780R
Software	Arch Linux + Win10

Processor	R9 5800x3d \| R7 3900X \| 4800H \| 2x Xeon gold 6142
Motherboard	Asrock X570M \| AB350M Pro 4 \| Asus Tuf A15
Cooling	Air \| Air \| duh laptop
Memory	64gb G.skill SniperX @3600 CL16 \| 128gb \| 32GB \| 192gb
Video Card(s)	RTX 4080 \|Quadro P5000 \| RTX2060M
Storage	Many drives
Display(s)	M32Q,AOC 27" 144hz something.
Case	Jonsbo D41
Power Supply	Corsair RM850x
Mouse	g502 Lightspeed
Keyboard	G913 tkl
Software	win11, proxmox
Benchmark Scores	33000FS, 16300 TS. Lappy, 7000 TS.

BIOS ROM Size Limitations Almost Derail AMD's Zen2 Backwards Compatibility Promise

EarthDog

Midland Dog

Sybaris_Caesar

spectatorx

bug

Imsochobo

TheGuruStud

TheLostSwede

News Editor

Totally

Dwarden

R-T-B

Final_Fighter

spectatorx

R-T-B

Final_Fighter

Crackong

Lorec

zlobby

TheLostSwede

News Editor

spectatorx

bug

spectatorx

bug

spectatorx

evilhf

Processor	OCed 5800X3D
Motherboard	Asucks C6H
Cooling	Air
Memory	32GB
Video Card(s)	OCed 6800XT
Storage	NVMees
Display(s)	32" Dull curved 1440
Case	Freebie glass idk
Audio Device(s)	Sennheiser
Power Supply	Don't even remember

System Name	Overlord Mk MLI
Processor	AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D
Motherboard	Gigabyte X670E Aorus Master
Cooling	Noctua NH-D15 SE with offsets
Memory	32GB Team T-Create Expert DDR5 6000 MHz @ CL30-34-34-68
Video Card(s)	Gainward GeForce RTX 4080 Phantom GS
Storage	1TB Solidigm P44 Pro, 2 TB Corsair MP600 Pro, 2TB Kingston KC3000
Display(s)	Acer XV272K LVbmiipruzx 4K@160Hz
Case	Fractal Design Torrent Compact
Audio Device(s)	Corsair Virtuoso SE
Power Supply	be quiet! Pure Power 12 M 850 W
Mouse	Logitech G502 Lightspeed
Keyboard	Corsair K70 Max
Software	Windows 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores	https://valid.x86.fr/5za05v

System Name	Miami
Processor	Ryzen 3800X
Motherboard	Asus Crosshair VII Formula
Cooling	Ek Velocity/ 2x 280mm Radiators/ Alphacool fullcover
Memory	F4-3600C16Q-32GTZNC
Video Card(s)	XFX 6900 XT Speedster 0
Storage	1TB WD M.2 SSD/ 2TB WD SN750/ 4TB WD Black HDD
Display(s)	DELL AW3420DW / HP ZR24w
Case	Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL
Audio Device(s)	EVGA Nu Audio
Power Supply	Seasonic Prime Gold 1000W+750W
Mouse	Corsair Scimitar/Glorious Model O-
Keyboard	Corsair K95 Platinum
Software	Windows 10 Pro

System Name	Pioneer
Processor	Ryzen R9 7950X
Motherboard	GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling	Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory	64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s)	XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage	2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s)	55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case	Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s)	TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply	FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse	Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard	WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches + PBT DS keycaps
Software	Gentoo Linux x64

Processor	ryzen 5 5600x
Motherboard	AB350m Pro4
Cooling	custom loop
Memory	TEAMGROUP T-Force TXKD416G3600HC18ADC01 16gbs XMP
Video Card(s)	HP GTX1650 super 4gb
Storage	MZVLB256HBHQ-000H1 PM981a (256GB)/3TB HDD
Display(s)	Nitro XF243Y Pbmiiprx
Case	Rosewill CULLINAN
Audio Device(s)	onboard
Power Supply	Corsair 750w
Mouse	Best Buy Insignia
Keyboard	Best Buy Insignia
Software	Win 10 pro

System Name	Personal Gaming Rig
Processor	Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard	MSI X670E Carbon
Cooling	MO-RA 3 420
Memory	32GB 6000MHz
Video Card(s)	RTX 4090 ICHILL FROSTBITE ULTRA
Storage	4x 2TB Nvme
Display(s)	Samsung G8 OLED
Case	Silverstone FT04

System Name	Nilin
Processor	Ryzen 9 5800x
Motherboard	Asus Rog Crosshair VIII Hero Wifi
Cooling	Lian Li Galahad AIO 360
Memory	G. Skill TridentZ Neo 32gb 3600Mhz CL16-16-16-36
Video Card(s)	Asus TUF RTX 3080
Storage	Samsung Evo 960 250gb (System), Samsung Evo 860 500gb (Misc), Samsung 990 Pro 1Tb (Games)
Display(s)	LG 27" UHD IPS, LG Ultragear 27" WQHD Nano IPS
Case	InWin 303 (7x Fractal Prisma 120mm)
Power Supply	Tt Toughpower Grand RGB 850W
Mouse	Razer Viper Ultimate
Keyboard	SteelSeries Apex 3
Benchmark Scores	https://www.3dmark.com/fs/21022952 (old system)

Processor	Ryzen 9 3900x
Motherboard	Asus Rog Strix X570-E
Cooling	Watercooler custom
Memory	2x8GB Gskill Royal 4000 cl17 @ 3770mhz cl14
Video Card(s)	Radeon Vega 56
Storage	M2 Nvme Samsung 970 Evo 250gb / Samsung Sata 950 Evo 120gb / Wester Digital HDD Sata 1TB
Display(s)	Alienware AW2518HF 240hz
Case	Corsair Crystal 680X
Audio Device(s)	in motherboard
Power Supply	Gigabyte 750w ouroplus
Mouse	Logitech g303
Keyboard	Logitech Gpro
Software	Windows 10 18363.752