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Yep. Been there, done that.

Haha, indeed. I saw an argument today that made me realize that I've never seen someone give an aggressive argument either way and get the reaction "You know? I never thought of that! Thank you. Could you tell me more?"

I think this is what made me tired of Dawkin's atheism in my teens. You can argue ethics, philosophy, and empiricism all day, but 'killing god' with concentrated thought lasers is always fruitless.

My experience was more of trying to reason someone out of their political faith, honestly, but same difference

LMAO it actually has the same mechanics! Just different bases entirely. I'll never forget when it hit me: people on all sides are seeing the exact same existence - the same world. We just call it different things. So it's like trying to tell someone the sky is the color of chartreuse when you still mean 'blue.' It's mostly just arguments on how we describe complex things that we all see the same ways.

I learned this from a pastor when he said, in a friendly discussion on faith "I can't help you with that." In that moment, I realized that a person's beliefs and their actual understanding of people are not the same. Wise pastor! In his mind he likely believed me to be 'searching', which would be his belief, not the truth. But he still had the deeper understanding of people to know what counted.

Anyone who is entrenched in a belief is not worthy of debate in the first place. Debate was never intended for them, it's for people capable of reexaminging their views on an issue.

We, as humans, all have points in our belief system where we are incapable of reasonable debate, whether we acknowledge it or not. Some of us just have it in more widespread spectrum than others.

@your originating statement;
The lesson from that? It's best not to try.

No, it's important to evaluate who you try with. You don't stand a chance beating your head against a brick wall. Look for straw huts.

@R-T-B I think the nuance of debate is lost on more people. For many it's just a game of 'find the winner' when the real value is completely beyond that.

A person's beliefs sit under their whole existence. It makes sense that people don't respond well when you tug at it too hard. My one wish: people did more to try to seperate what they believe from what is knowable. They're different things!

@lexluthermiester Yes, and no. I think you have to know when it just isn't appropriate or beneficial. But at the same time I don't like the idea of total refusal to engage as a viable option, simply because I see no progress in people having things that they refuse to understand. I like to think good ideas are meant to be tested. And bumping them up against each other makes the best ones stronger.

You said it better than my "straw huts" analogy lol.

Rather than looking for aparently shakey beliefs, you need to be looking for those willing to reevaluate their point on the subject. It's getting harder and harder today, but they still exist.