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300-page study: Piracy doesn't harm sales.

Discussion in 'General Software' started by Ahhzz, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. Ahhzz

    Ahhzz

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  2. Vya Domus

    Vya Domus

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    Who would have thought this wasn't the case ?

    Actually I know who , corporate representatives than need an excuse for investors on why their shitty products don't yield them the expected profits. It's because of piracy obviously.
     
  3. micropage7

    micropage7

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    although it said that, if the tag is right i consider being legal. start a good karma
     
  4. Frick

    Frick Fishfaced Nincompoop

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    If piracy did not exist (let's say because of basic honesty, ie magic) they would make more money. They are idealistic in that respect: they use an utopian vision (in which piracy does not exist) to make decisions, which in this case often is lobbying.
     
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  5. AsRock

    AsRock TPU addict

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    No not really, wanting to watch some thing don't mean you would buy it, in fact for my self if i don't buy it i will go the local library and get it free to watch, or even go the thrift store and get it.
     
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  6. StrayKAT

    StrayKAT

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    This wouldn't affect me either way. It just doesn't sit right with me, personally.
     
  7. lyndonguitar

    lyndonguitar I play games

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    Some people who pirate won't watch it anyway if it's not free or cheap. so you can say that if we can magically remove piracy, those people who pirate won't turn into buying instead, they simply won't buy it. Of course this is only the majority I presume, some will still give in to the pressure , especially if the content is good. Sales WILL indeed go down with piracy, but it doesn't 'harm' the sales in the industry as a whole.

    Also, there are two kinds of pirates for me. the one who buys bootleg copies and the ones who gets everything for free. The one who gets everything for free will generally behave similar to what I've described above: get it free or don't even bother. While the one who buys bootleg copies tend to 'go legit' if the services are good enough(Steam, Netflix, etc). This is the same case with video games, Gabe Newell once said that piracy isn't always a pricing problem, it's a service problem.
     
  8. RejZoR

    RejZoR

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    I'd consume more movies and series if they stopped dicking around with the damn "copyright" and "licenses" nonsense. Instead, 3/4 of services just don't exist in my country because my Slovenian € apparently isn't as good as the German or French €. What a joke.

    If there was a service that allowed me to watch cinema movies the moment they come out for 5€ each (lets say 1 day license to watch), I'd be all over that. Because I'm too lazy to go to cinema. And for god sake, give Netflix more movies and allow them in all countries. I was thrilled to see Netflix finally coming to my country, just to realize I miss bunch of stuff because I live in the "wrong" country...

    Movie industry refusing to fix their stupid business models is the ONLY reason why people rather use torrents instead of legal services. Because they are too restricted and too much of a hassle.

    Proof to counter that is GOG and Steam for games. Both are so convenient and have nearly no restrictions that I just can't even be bothered using torrents and fiddling with cracks and keygens. I just buy a game and I'm playing it hassle free. If I had that for movies and series, I'd use it for sure. If it's slightly cheaper than cinema and airs movies the same moment they do in physical cinemas, I'd be all over it. I'd probably watch it WAY more than I even do movies from "alternate" sources now.

    But until they finally get it, it's their own fault. Not pirates, not anything else, they are at fault and their archaic outdated business models.
     
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  9. HossHuge

    HossHuge

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    They wasted 299 pages cause I would have believed that in one page.
     
  10. Vya Domus

    Vya Domus

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    I just don't believe that at all. Why ? Because something like what you described did happen for a brief moment with Denuvo protected games and nothing out of the ordinary occurred. None of those companies suddenly reported insane profit gains.

    I still stand by my opinion that piracy is just a checkbox excuse to present to investors to make failure easier to swallow.

    "Our game hasn't met the expected target because of illegally distrusted copies" sounds much better than "Our game hasn't met the expected target because it's garbage"
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
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  11. Readlight

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    Of course its not if people had money they would bay it if game is good and fast and make me laugh.
     
  12. phanbuey

    phanbuey

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    movies and music hurt from piracy - videogames have a ton of value ($30-$50) for 100's of hours of entertainment, eventually they all go on sale for $10-$15 and also multiplayer games are virtually impossible to pirate.

    Books are a good example of this - the most pirated ones are the most overpriced (textbooks).
     
  13. the54thvoid

    the54thvoid

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    Oh look the Pirate Party MEP says piracy isn't bad.

    From a little reading the summary states the evidence is not robust enough to make a claim. The only statistical data that was telling was the film piracy effect where income was lost.

    I feel this thread will split into two groups, those who pay for products and those that dont. I don't torrent or illegally download - I dont think it is fair on the work done to produce said item. I may have written a book and may wish to make money from it. If it were a pirated e-book, you have stolen it. You have robbed from me. The argument, I would not have bought it anyway is irrelevant, it's circular.

    If one does not intend to buy a thing, one does not intend to use it but by stealing it and using it, you negate the premise you would not buy it by replacing it with the fact - yes, you have stolen it.

    It would be helpful on all concerned though if prices were lowered. I know many of us would happily buy a digital copy if it were far cheaper than the old physical formats. I mean we all have the same confusion - how can a stream of data cost more to produce, transport and sell than a disc?

    Anyway - pirates suck in real life.

    Arr, they do.
     
  14. Ahhzz

    Ahhzz

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    I believe you're saying you disagree with this 300 page, €360.000 cost document. Which is, of course, your right: I would never prevent someone from maintaining their own ignorance, as long as it didn't infringe upon my ability to gain knowledge. However, it would appear that a relatively knowledgeable group of people have a differing opinion.
    If I've misunderstood you, I apologize.

    Actually, the MEP didn't say that, the agency commissioned by the EU to research any cost to business of piracy said there was no measurable effect. However, you are correct: summary states that when the EU commissioned a group to discover the cost of piracy on media (games, books, movies, etc), they were unable to find a displacing cost:

    "In general, the results do not show robust statistical evidence of displacement of sales by online copyright infringements. That does not necessarily mean that piracy has no effect but only that the statistical analysis does not prove with sufficient reliability that there is an effect."

    They were told to look for an effect by piracy. They were unable to locate statistically that such an effect exists, excepting the recent blockbuster film releases. That is not the only "telling" statistic; the fact that they were unable to determine any cost, statistically, from piracy is also a critical conclusion. The report didn't say "We weren't able to gather any data, " or even "enough data", it says that the data they did gather, did not prove an effect.


    Theoretically, I would prefer to purchase a new Rolls Royce, but it is way too expensive. Simply being unable to purchase an item does not prove a lack of desire for said item. And I'm not discussing "value": that's a discussion for a different thread. Theoretically, I would also prefer to purchase the latest version of AutoCad, however it, too, is cost prohibitive. I will not buy this piece of software. In both instances, I will instead purchase a reasonably priced alternative (or free, such as walking, or online alternate drawing apps). However, theoretically, if I were to come across a digital copy of this software for use, I would use it. This does not prove intent to purchase, or a lost sale. I am financially unable to spend the money on either product. I'm not saying either theoretical scenario is moral, or acceptable, just pointing out the fallacy of the "lost sale" argument.

    The statement "I would not have bought it anyway" is not irrelevant, unless you choose to simply ignore it, at which point there's no recourse to a conversation: you've already committed to ignoring inconvenient statements.

    I would agree with your discussion of current digital pricing, with the note that these businesses who are providing assorted digital services do not appear to be skyrocketing in profits, which would tend to indicate to me that either some individuals are pocketing large quantities of cash in secret, that the business models in use are extremely inefficient, or simply that everyone in the business prefers to receive a reasonable pay for their work. I'm more than open to discussions on digital providers and their cash flows in another thread :)

    ramble ahead...
    I have pirated software in the past. We played LAN over Serial ports Heretic with a single copy when I was in college. We all went in on a single copy, as we were unable to scavenge enough from our laundry and fast food budgets to purchase multiple copies. We probably could have skipped a few cheeseburgers and made it work, but we were young, and there were "priorities".
    In years passing after that, and my funds became more "fluid", I pirated additional software as I came across them to determine if I would enjoy that particular game. When I came across one that captured my attention extensively, as budgeting allowed, my legitimate collection increased, both in physical form, and digitally. If the software in question did not appeal, it simply fell into an "unused" category in my collection, and was deleted or thrown away. I rationalize that behavior thus: when I purchased my new theoretical Rolls Royce, I was permitted to test drive said beauty, and determine if it was indeed the car of my dreams, and worth the extensive price tag. The H3 was sadly disappointing, and I put it in my "discard" pile of dreams. I feel no guilt over a theoretical folder on a hard drive, containing Nexus Jupiter Incident: I have that game on my GoG bookshelf, and it was worth every cent. I likewise don't regret the folder Dungeon Siege 3, without a corresponding "receipt": the game failed to occupy more than 10 minutes of my time, and did not deserve a box to sit with it's two older brethren.

    Few other purchases put such requirements that you find in the software industry anymore. I can read a few pages of a book in B&N, or even in Amazon. I can test drive a truck. I can even taste foodstuffs at many locations. Finding a software "testdrive" is a rarity to be treasured. If I choose to find my own demos for something that I am willing to purchase upon approval, I find little to look down upon. I support the companies that provide quality product at reasonable pricing, and ignore the others.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
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  15. phanbuey

    phanbuey

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    yeah im not saying that...

    but good luck in your zealous quest in defending piracy. (I like jumping to conclusions too).
     
  16. Vya Domus

    Vya Domus

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    Wasn't this about whether or not piracy affect sales ? Who came up with the conclusion that this was about people defending piracy ? I feel like your comment acts as a fuel to the former.

    One pirated piece of content =/= one lost sale. They just don't , plain and simple. Some people and corporations can't seem to comprehend this at all which is why you think this is a circular argument , when in reality it isn't.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
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  17. qubit

    qubit Overclocked quantum bit

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    The copyright cartels have a vested interest in maintaining absolute control all in the name of fat profits and have the money and political power to slowly increase that control, so these rather pertinent facts are irrelevant to them. :rolleyes:

    @Ahhzz Good OP, thanks for posting it. :toast:
     
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  18. the54thvoid

    the54thvoid

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    I feel you love disagreeing with anything I comment on. I would discuss this with you but in my experience we never, ever see eye to eye. So, yeah, feel how you like but the Pirate Party member for the EU is certainly defending piracy by posting a report that sort of can be construed that it doesn't hurt sales that much.

    And the second bit:

    I steal and eat an apple I didnt need to eat. It's a lost sale. I didn't need it but I stole it anyway.
     
  19. Vya Domus

    Vya Domus

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    I most certainly do not seek out to disagree with on purpose and I am pretty sure I always made clear my reasoning. It just happens that we are never on the same side of the fence , is that strange in some way ? And I'm not sure how you interpreted my response because the only thing that I did was to tell you that I feel like you're taking this discussion on a path that didn't had much to do with the original subject.

    And how the hell does one quantify that ? How can you claim that one would have definitely bought that apple if he didn't have the means to steal it ? And if you don't think that's the case ( because we both know that makes no sense ) , then how can you say that something was lost if there is no way to prove it even existed in the first place ? To make matters worse in our case the apple is part of an unlimited supply. You see where's the problem with this ? There is way too much speculation involved to seriously consider this a valid point.

    You can't lose a sale in a literal sense. You either mange to sell something or you don't. Now , you can come up with a million reasons and excuses on why you didn't sell you product , which might be perfectly valid but claiming your sales have been "stolen" has no real foundation and just makes you look like a crybaby that didn't get what he wanted.

    By your logic I suppose we were all millionaires , we just had our money ( which we can't prove they existed ) taken away from us. :pimp:

    Damn you cruel world ! A place where you can't just simply put out a product and make a guaranteed fortune. Instead you have to resort to speculative arguments on why you failed to do so. That's exactly how this whole thing sounds like , excuse me for not agreeing with it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  20. punisher186

    punisher186

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    Gabe Newell said this back in 2009 (1 minute 4 seconds in):
     
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  21. Ahhzz

    Ahhzz

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    Again, I did apologize if incorrect: I drew that conclusion from your statement "movies and music hurt from piracy".
     
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  22. phanbuey

    phanbuey

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    I wasn't really clear but I was relating to this statement:

    "For games, the estimated effect of illegal online transactions on sales is positive – implying that illegal consumption leads to increased legal consumption. This positive effect of illegal downloads and streams on the sales of games may be explained by the industry being successful in converting illegal users to paying users. Tactics used by the industry include, for example, offering gameplay with extra bonuses or extra levels if consumers pay."

    Which to me means Piracy of media >> Piracy of games.

    also:

    Reading through the methodology, they had some serious issues with getting valid data, which is i think they didn't really publish this study: the executive summary of the document, they even mention that. I don't think any of those researchers would claim, "Piracy does not hurt sales" they would say "There is a lack of evidence (given how difficult this is to measure) to say that Piracy measurably hurts sales." i.e. "We can't really measure that claim, therefore we cannot make it".

    "Self-reported numbers of legal transactions are generally higher than official sales statistics indicate, except for live music and the top-100 films." i.e. the data are iffy and failed the sanity test.

    "The reliability of self-reported consumption was also tested. Consumers’ responses are clustered around convenient numbers (such as 50 and 100). This suggests that large-scale consumers do not recall exactly how much content they have consumed." i.e. the data are iffy

    "Table S.3 reports the results of methodology 2. For music, the estimated overall displacement rate is zero. The displacement of physical sales (though with a large error margin) is compensated by a significant positive effect of illegal downloads and streams on live concert visits." ....

    "Minors in the age of 14-17 years were slightly oversampled to allow a representative analysis of that specific group. Note that the internet using population is not entirely representative for the population as a whole."
     
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  23. Beastie

    Beastie

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    For sure some sales will be lost due to piracy.

    But to a certain extent movie distibuters have themselves to blame due to their horrible DRM, staggered geographical release schedules, price gouging and annoying anti piracy ads which are all inflicted on legitimate paying customers.
     
  24. RejZoR

    RejZoR

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    How the hell do game streams affect sales? No one ever in the history of gaming has said "I'll just watch a free stream instead of experiencing the game myself". If anything, streams encourage viewers to buy the games. I mean, you watch the stream and you think to yourself "Damn, this game is pretty neat". And you buy it.
     
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  25. StrayKAT

    StrayKAT

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    That's been true even when I was a little kid and seeing someone playing a Nintendo game at home... or as I grew older and seeing someone play GTA3. The internet is just another phase of it.

    --
    All that aside, stealing is bad. Life isn't a movie where "Pirates" are cool. Sure, the prices of entertainment are ridiculous, but that doesn't justify stealing. Or at least, one doesn't have the moral highground there. You're essentially both being jerkoffs trying to rip people off.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017

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