AGP - X1950 Pro experiences

[twicksisted]

Hey Pum,

The X1950 is a seriously power hungry beast!
That corsair may not be up to the job of handling it well im afriad!
(and please no people jumping in telling me that they are running their 8800 cards off it fine as they do not have the same power requirements as these older cards do)

I know you think you have 40a in that power supply, but the reality is that you do not.
A multirailled unit will only supply a maxmimum of 18A per rail... this does not mean that if you have 2 rails it will supply 36A etc...
What this means, is that each rail has a limiter on it that wont allow it to exceed that amount.

I perviously had a sapphire X1950 pro... I had it on a 350W dell psu... which wouldnt even boot it up... anyways I did a lot of research on this an it was all about power.

I upgraded to an OCZ GameXstream 600W and it ran fine though I had crashes like you experiencing in the beginning.

It needed 2 molex power connectors and I plugged two in from the same rail at first. This is silly as that rail has a max of only 18A and the card needs a rail of minimum 30A.

After plugging these in from each seperate rail I was able to run perfectly stable.
Also a good power supply will run the card cooler!

try plugging in a molex from each of your two unused rails to the card... this will give it the most even power.... you say you have 3 rails... try and use the rails that do not have other peripherals plugged into it.

I have now stopped messing around and bought an Enermax Galaxy 1000W and what can I say! perfect

 

[tkpenalty]

twicksisted, please re-evaluate your facts. I've installed an 8800GTS 320MB with a Coolermaster extremepower 430W, and you tell me that you need a 600W PSU just to run an X1950PRO? And where did "A multi railed PSU will only support 18A per rail" come from?

THe X1950PRO is by no means a power hungry card... example my system at full load only chews 300W of power. A system with a 8800GTS 320MB installed in my setup would only chew 340~350W.

I'll explain why your X1950PRO didnt run with the dell, the Dell's with only 350W are obviously too weak, however the newer model with 370W are more than sufficient. Crashes? I would blame that on overheating. Moreover, you cannot "select rails"...

"and please no people jumping in telling me that they are running their 8800 cards off it fine as they do not have the same power requirements as these older cards do"

that means you basically become a facist . The fact remains that the G80s chew more power than a X1950PRO.

 

[twicksisted]

X1950 is power hungry but what people fail to realise is that they need 30A on the 12v rail to run it... (8800series needs a reccomended minimum of 24a only).
I know exactely why it did not run with the dell and that is due to the fact that the dell has a maximum output on that old Dell PSU of 12A.. plain and simple... obvious.

nvidias cards use less power than their ATI equivalents... You can underpower a card fine and in most cases it will work fine in 2D mode but will crash out and run hot in 3D... what also will eventually happen is a failure of the PSU and probably end up destroying your build because of it.. (good luck with that on the 430w).

Was just offering advice as I have owned and used all of these components... have had the same issues as he was experiencing and have fixed them through research, tech support forums and finding out what works for me... this is why I feel that I can advise here.

I seriously doubt that he has received duff cards (twice)... perhaps one could have been at fault but not two wehich is why I have posted..

Also in trying to fix my old issue with the same card, that corsair PSU was pointed out as not suitable to run with an X1950 pro (sapphire X1950 pro... not the overclocked HIS he has that uses even more juice)

he has three 12v rails on that PSU.... I offered he use a molex from different 12v cables from the psu into each of the cards slots... not from the same 12v line.. this is what i meant by different rails. I first used a molex from the same 12v line and this did not work even with my 600W OCZ. It would boot up to the OS fine... but would crash in 3D mode.

A single rail unit of 30A or more would be better in this case.

Power supplys from different manufacturers will be different... a 500W generic will definately not push out the same sustained amperage as a 500W pc power & cooling or enermax etc... this is a fact. The ratings on his PSU are MAX ratings and not sustained

UPDATE from PC&C website :-

With all the hype about multiple 12-volt rails (ads claim that two rails is better than one, five is better than four, etc.), you’d think it was a better design. Unfortunately, it’s not!

Here are the facts: A large, single 12-volt rail (without a 240VA limit) can transfer 100% of the 12-volt output from the PSU to the computer, while a multi-rail 12-volt design has distribution losses of up to 30% of the power supply’s rating. Those losses occur because power literally gets “trapped” on under-utilized rails. For example, if the 12-volt rail that powers the CPU is rated for 17 amps and the CPU only uses 7A, the remaining 10A is unusable, since it is isolated from the rest of the system.

Since the maximum current from any one 12-volt rail of a multiple-rail PSU is limited to 20 amps (240VA / 12 volts = 20 amps), PCs with high-performance components that draw over 20 amps from the same rail are subject to over-current shutdowns. With power requirements for multiple processors and graphics cards continuing to grow, the multiple-rail design, with its 240VA limit per rail, is basically obsolete.

I made a tyypo with the multirailled unit being limited to 18a... i was supposed to put 20a

 

[mrhuggles]

HIS x1950pro iceq3 turbo AGP, 587mhz core 770mhz ram, 100% stable [was baught as rev1 from newegg, obviously rev2 tho?] get this, antec 400w SL400, but its 23a on the 12v rail, not like it says on the website, dunno, it runs fine tho, if i put the card on 1 cable or 2, i put it on 2 just becuase, but it runs fine on only 1. whats with those cards anyways? it seems to me like they keep putting different ones out at different clocks? great card tho, it never gets above 60c under heavy load yay.

oops, 256mb video ram.

 

[Morgoth]

x1950pro runned fine on my 250watt psu...

 

[mrhuggles]

well then why does everybody say you need a million watt psu? i guess, the amperage on the 12v rail is more important? nice, then i guess oldschool but higher quality psu's are ok then

 

[twicksisted]

its really not the wattage that important with high end gear... its the amperage that they receive and the quality of the PSU thats driving them...

Most PSU manufacturers use sneaky methods to display the Amp output of their units.
Most only display their maximum amp rating (not sustained) for each rail even though its impossible for all of the rails to run at that output simulatneously.

hey im not in here to start an arguement or upset any people.. The facts is that I have had this same issue before, with the same gear... i fixed it... thats all that important here.


Thats all that important to the thread starter, the dude with the issue... not a pissing contest becuase you think that a 250watt psu can run a X1950... i dont any helpfull suggestions besides trying to send it in again for a 3rd RMA

 

[Morgoth]

not a pissing contest becuase you think that a 250watt psu can run a X1950...

i dont think it does, IT does work on a 250watt psu i even got proof enough ppl here know me i runned around with a 250watt psu

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=39338&page=10


my old 250watt psu


FSP group inc. Forton/source
Model number fsp250-60bt(12v)
max. output power 250w
DC output +3.3v-20.0a(org) +5v-25.0a(RED) +12V-13.0a(yel)
+5Vsb-2.0A(purp) -5v-0.3A(white) -12-0.8A(blue)
P.G singal (gray) Ground(black)
(+3.3V & +5V=150 max) (+3.3V & +12v=230wat max)

and its a heavy psu

and its getting soon its new owner sold it for 15 euro and waiting for that guy to show up

i still got a 300watt that i toke out of my broken Pentium 2 XD

 

[KennyT772]

The reason for buying high end power supplys are more so because of the power output quality, and stability vs pure power. My flashy rig (link in sig) might make some thing I use all 700w in my system, truth is I usually don't pull over 300w from my wall socket. You might ask why I have a 700w psu then right? Well given how long power supplies last this one will see me through my next build totally, and I know it won't overheat, shutdown, randomly die, or explode killing my rig.

If you have any other power supply related questions take them to the PSU Guide.

 

[Widjaja]

Mine wasn't power hungry as I was running it off a 450W +12v/15a single rail generic at one stage.
Replaced it with my current PSU just to be on the safe side and for future proofing.
Seriously I think this "X1950's need a powerful PSU" came from the ATi site.
As the recommended PSU's in the list there are all pretty powerful.

Oh and it's been 100% stable, just plays some not very demanding games unexpectedly rubbish.
Not to say it plays other more demanding games exceptionally well.

 

[Wile E]

Hey Pum,

The X1950 is a seriously power hungry beast!
That corsair may not be up to the job of handling it well im afriad!
(and please no people jumping in telling me that they are running their 8800 cards off it fine as they do not have the same power requirements as these older cards do)

I know you think you have 40a in that power supply, but the reality is that you do not.
A multirailled unit will only supply a maxmimum of 18A per rail... this does not mean that if you have 2 rails it will supply 36A etc...
What this means, is that each rail has a limiter on it that wont allow it to exceed that amount.

I perviously had a sapphire X1950 pro... I had it on a 350W dell psu... which wouldnt even boot it up... anyways I did a lot of research on this an it was all about power.

I upgraded to an OCZ GameXstream 600W and it ran fine though I had crashes like you experiencing in the beginning.

It needed 2 molex power connectors and I plugged two in from the same rail at first. This is silly as that rail has a max of only 18A and the card needs a rail of minimum 30A.

After plugging these in from each seperate rail I was able to run perfectly stable.
Also a good power supply will run the card cooler!

try plugging in a molex from each of your two unused rails to the card... this will give it the most even power.... you say you have 3 rails... try and use the rails that do not have other peripherals plugged into it.

I have now stopped messing around and bought an Enermax Galaxy 1000W and what can I say! perfect

His Corsair is more than enough to run the 1950Pro. I know somebody personally that has a 1950Pro Crossfire setup on that same exact psu. It does 40A combined on the 12v rails, and it behaves like a single rail psu. http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=28

The 1950Pro DOES NOT require 30A. That's an overly safe estimate that ATI makes, taking into account the load from the rest of the system, on a cheap psu, under worst case scenarios.

And you do realize that your PCP&C quotes are marketing material, right? Both single and multi-rail configs have their pros and cons. To believe that one is better than the other in every way is just naive.

 

[tkpenalty]

As wile E said, 30A is for generic PSUs... even the quality of Generic PSUs are getting better, so that would be an outdated statement... 300W guys... for an average system with the X1950PRO installed.

 

[Morgoth]

I doubt it. Esspecially if it was pushed hard.

totaly not it wast to hot but it was kinda hot becus of small case and 1 80x80 + psu fan blowing air out with 140x140 blowing air in

 

[Morgoth]

entire system its 7 years old

 

[twicksisted]

erocker.. i wouldnt bother dude
lol i tried to add my 2p aswell but everyone seems insistant that an X1950 dosent need power.... personally i dont care as now i have an HD2900 & galaxy 1000W psu...

aaah well, when their underpower PSU's that are overvolting break their systems theyll probably understand

 

[Wile E]

erocker.. i wouldnt bother dude
lol i tried to add my 2p aswell but everyone seems insistant that an X1950 dosent need power.... personally i dont care as now i have an HD2900 & galaxy 1000W psu...

aaah well, when their underpower PSU's that are overvolting break their systems theyll probably understand

Nobody said the card is not power hungry, it's just not that power hungry. A corsair 520w psu is OVERKILL. Even it is completely unnecessary.

I'm sorry my friend, but it seems you have bought into marketing hype. As evidenced by the fact that you feel the need to buy a 1kW psu for a single 2900. I have a HD2900, and prior to this 3800+ I had a 6000+ (that I killed), and I overclock and overvolt everything. Runs perfectly on a Corsair 620w psu.

Yes, you offered our community your 2p, and it is appreciated, but unfortunately, your 2p are wrong, this time around.

 

[twicksisted]

lol... that 1000w psu is so that i dont have to upgrade for many a year to come... i am getting another 2900pro to crossfire and i have 6 HDD's , 2 DVD r/w's... and what know else in the next couple of years

I havent bought into hype... i have had an issue with these old X1950's that i solved with power supply upgrade and through technical help from sapphire on the issue

I was just offering advice to people with similar problems.

My OCZ 600W gamexstream pushed it fine... though it was multirail with 4X 18a rails... of which 38a was useable only in total

 

[Wile E]

lol... that 1000w psu is so that i dont have to upgrade for many a year to come... i am getting another 2900pro to crossfire and i have 6 HDD's , 2 DVD r/w's... and what know else in the next couple of years

I havent bought into hype... i have had an issue with these old X1950's that i solved with power supply upgrade and through technical help from sapphire on the issue

I was just offering advice to people with similar problems.

My OCZ 600W gamexstream pushed it fine... though it was multirail with 4X 18a rails... of which 38a was useable only in total

See, there's the difference, the Corsair 520w does 40A total combined. It's essentially a rebadged Seasonic M12. So his problem was definitely not one of power issues.

And I have to apologize for my prior comment. In re-reading it, it sounds very harsh, but wasn't intended to be that way. Gonna try to make it sound better in an edit.

EDIT: Forgot to comment on the 1kw psu. If you bought it for future proofing reasons, it's perfectly understandable.

 

[twicksisted]

hey no worries dude... i knew my opinion was not going to be popular

...anything that makes people spend extra on something as boring as a PSU isnt going to be hehe specially when it will work on an underpowered PSU for a short period of time till it breaks it.

I just learned the hard way and through trying out a lot of gear that i was gonna have to fork out on something that i later learned was the most important part of my system... its blood and veins if you look at it that way

 

[tkpenalty]

Not underpowered... an Antec NEO HE 430W PSU doesnt even run warm with a X1950PRO installed, as I said, only using 300W of power. Get that in your head, the PSU has to fail sometime in the future, but this doesnt mean you will kill the PSU by running a X1950PRO with it. Say you run one 8800GTX well you're starting to push it, but if you calculate it, it is possible.

 

[twicksisted]

ok... well im glad it works for you dude... i really am as you dont need to spend more cash.
thats great... but it diddnt work for me... and if you go to the Sapphire support forums.. it dosent work for thousands of other people... heres a link... read any of these posts:
http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/forums/search.php?searchid=1023510

this is where i figured it out through a little help from the tech dudes
(that search string by the way was for "corsair 520w" just for interest sake... type in X1950 in the troubleshooting section and youll see that pretty much all issues with these cards are down to PSU being under 30a sustained aswell )

they strongly suggest that that psu is not strong enough and gives issues with most users..
Im personally amazed that your 430w does the job and does it well... i have never tried that brand and psu and hopefully wont need to with what i have now, but it is interesting that it does work.

 

[Wile E]

ok... well im glad it works for you dude... i really am as you dont need to spend more cash.
thats great... but it diddnt work for me... and if you go to the Sapphire support forums.. it dosent work for thousands of other people... heres a link... read any of these posts:
http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/forums/search.php?searchid=1023510

this is where i figured it out through a little help from the tech dudes
(that search string by the way was for "corsair 520w" just for interest sake... type in X1950 in the troubleshooting section and youll see that pretty much all issues with these cards are down to PSU being under 30a sustained aswell )

they strongly suggest that that psu is not strong enough and gives issues with most users..
Im personally amazed that your 430w does the job and does it well... i have never tried that brand and psu and hopefully wont need to with what i have now, but it is interesting that it does work.

But I'm telling you, the Corsair 520w has 40A combined on the 12v rails, and behaves like a single rail psu. Read the JonnyGuru link I posted. Even if those few people had problems with a Corsair psu, many more have not. A few bad units does not account for the whole line.

And the NeoHE 430w psu does 32A on the 12v lines, which is why it's more than sufficient for a 1950Pro.

And about those forums, after reading a few links, it seems to me that the general tech level of the people on those forums is lower than that of tpu. I will take a recommendation from here before that forum, any day.

Other stuff I saw over there: I get high pitched noises under very heavy loads, as was mentioned in a thread or 2, but it comes from my board, not my gfx card or psu. All voltages are confirmed by my multi tester to be in spec while under load, so it is not a psu problem.

 

[twicksisted]

This is an interesting post from there thats a bit more specific and to the point... sorry i cant find the "quote" button in my reply but its below the dotted lines instead hehe



---------------------------------------------------------------------------

170W + 600W + 9.6W + 15W = 620 ?
140W + 480W + 9.6W + 15W = 520 ?

How misleading It's actually 620-(170+9.6+15)=425.4w for 12v rails on the 620w unit. This leads to 425.4w / 12v = 35.45a which is enough on the table if this unit can really combine rails. 11.81a for each 3 rail which is ONLY good if a rail only serves the gfx card, nothing else. That's very unlikely, believe me.

It's worse on 520w unit. 520 - (140+9.6+15) = 355.4w and it's 355.4w / 12v = 29.66a for 12v rails. 9.8a for each 3 rail. And it may not even be the sustained(very important) but MAX/PEAK value which means nothing. Even if that unit can combine amps as it's supposed to, it comes short by a few amps. Those a few amps may lead to damage on the card or the psu.

Now, you must be careful about PSUs, because the companies are not always honest with the values or the unit can't live up to the specs. That's a fact, that's always been like this. The amps weren't an issue before because the gfx cards weren't powerful that much, they soon became wattage hungry and then amps hungry. So it's all about whether a unit can provide the rated specs or not. Even decent companies have crap PSUs but at least there're also ppl on internet that you can get info, advice about PSUs, because they just tried hundreds of combinations unlike regular home builders like us. And it's faster than formal ways most of the time.

One more thing. Almost every decent mobo has at least one thermo stick connection. Find one, put it inside the PSU of yours and plug it to the mobo. The default mobo application should show thermo stick temp. See if it's more than 50c or not. Because that 520&620 units are rated best under 50c. Heat is the main enemy of electronics, mostly for PSUs which will be less efficient.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anyways, thats just one of the numerous posts that go on about that PSU and its suitability to the X1950 card

the whole thread can be found here:
http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/forums/showthread.php?t=14091&page=1&pp=10&highlight=corsair+520

 

[Wile E]

This is an interesting post from there thats a bit more specific and to the point... sorry i cant find the "quote" button in my reply but its below the dotted lines instead hehe



---------------------------------------------------------------------------

170W + 600W + 9.6W + 15W = 620 ?
140W + 480W + 9.6W + 15W = 520 ?

How misleading It's actually 620-(170+9.6+15)=425.4w for 12v rails on the 620w unit. This leads to 425.4w / 12v = 35.45a which is enough on the table if this unit can really combine rails. 11.81a for each 3 rail which is ONLY good if a rail only serves the gfx card, nothing else. That's very unlikely, believe me.

It's worse on 520w unit. 520 - (140+9.6+15) = 355.4w and it's 355.4w / 12v = 29.66a for 12v rails. 9.8a for each 3 rail. And it may not even be the sustained(very important) but MAX/PEAK value which means nothing. Even if that unit can combine amps as it's supposed to, it comes short by a few amps. Those a few amps may lead to damage on the card or the psu.

Now, you must be careful about PSUs, because the companies are not always honest with the values or the unit can't live up to the specs. That's a fact, that's always been like this. The amps weren't an issue before because the gfx cards weren't powerful that much, they soon became wattage hungry and then amps hungry. So it's all about whether a unit can provide the rated specs or not. Even decent companies have crap PSUs but at least there're also ppl on internet that you can get info, advice about PSUs, because they just tried hundreds of combinations unlike regular home builders like us. And it's faster than formal ways most of the time.

One more thing. Almost every decent mobo has at least one thermo stick connection. Find one, put it inside the PSU of yours and plug it to the mobo. The default mobo application should show thermo stick temp. See if it's more than 50c or not. Because that 520&620 units are rated best under 50c. Heat is the main enemy of electronics, mostly for PSUs which will be less efficient.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anyways, thats just one of the numerous posts that go on about that PSU and its suitability to the X1950 card

the whole thread can be found here:
http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/forums/showthread.php?t=14091&page=1&pp=10&highlight=corsair+520

Sigh, here we go again. How do you know that the equation Corsair used to come up with the rating was as listed? That's speculation on the author's part. How about they underrated the specs.

Quit arguing with me and read the link I gave. They have been tested, and put out exactly what they claim on the 12v rails. Your link is wrong.

They are underrated from the factory

 

[tkpenalty]

I have to agree with Wile E... the sapphire support tech forums members generally do not know much about IT, and have just started being an enthusiast. Twicksisted, sorry but you are being plainly pretentious now. The X1950PRO doesnt consume much power, 95W in fact at MOST. See my 600W iGreen PSU, i only use 50% of its potential since i have a 300W setup, do you get that? Sapphire's support forum is filled with many members who dont know much so you cant use them as a substantial basis. The X1950PRO by far isnt a power hungry card, do I have to repeat this more than three times?

That green gecko, he doesnt know what he is on about (no offense to him if he reads this), and proves how low the tech level is, moreover, he has problems, doing what a moderator SHOULDNT, trying to persevere with incorrect statements. Honestly mate, we do a better job here supporting their products than they do! How Pretentious is he! Now, ask him how much power does an X1950PRO consume? I doubt he knows!

EDIT: If corsair used their max ratings for their PSUs, they could be classified as being 700W units . Same with my PSU.