Aiming for a new AMD PC setup for about $/€1800, plus-minus, but I kindly need some help and advice to get the right parts...

[winterwonderland]

With Black Friday upcoming and my current PC is not doing its job that well any longer, as it is being overly slow and troublesome when it comes to loading etc. + I cannot play any of the new games that I wanna play because of the specs being bad and whatnot + it's about time to get myself a new PC. This time, I am going for an AMD-setup, and it would be great if it would last for a few years, like 5+ years or so. But, I do not need ALL the parts, as I do have some parts available, such as: monitors (I have 4 available), case (FD R6), power supply (I have a G3 650W now), Noctua-fans in various sizes, mouse and a keyboard. I do need the following parts, however:
- CPU
- CPU cooler
- Graphics card
- Memory
- Motherboard
- SSD
- Power supply

I will use my PC primarily for these things, so it should perform these tasks without any issues:
- Livestreaming and streams (running various streaming programs and other apps in the background)
- Multitasking (I stream while I do other things/projects such as web designing)
- Photo + Video rendering + editing (my current PC takes a long time to perform these tasks, to be honest)
- Light gaming (NO FPS. Mostly sports, RPG, adventure and action games. I am NOT picky when it comes to running all games at max performance/quality etc.)

With Black Friday coming up, I am going to scout for some options, but this time, my budget is about $/€1800, plus-minus.

Any thoughts on a setup that would deal with my tasks nicely?

PS: Look at my listed PC specs for my current setup, if that matters...

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Well 5800x CPU for sure.

 

[Nike_486DX]

i suggest to think twice about the gpu, with today's market situation you would only afford maybe a 3060 at best (which is worse than 1080ti). I suggest getting a 5600G for now, (or a used 2400G, since main objective would be getting a somewhat decent igpu without having to pay much as any igpu is ofc really slow). Stock cpu cooling (u dont need anything fancy until u hit 9 series), good psu, fast ram, a decent B550 mobo (such as Msi B550-A Pro), etc. Build it without dedicated gpu for $1000, test it out, etc. And then just buy a 3080ti for what it will worth in a couple of months. Remember,its not only about the shortage and high gpu prices, but its also about sloppily made cards and some quality control issues https://www.notebookcheck.net/More-...rce-RTX-30-series-cards-emerges.561536.0.html. So even if u pay $800 for a 3060ti (which is ofc a ripoff), you may even get a card with issues.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

i suggest to think twice about the gpu, with today's market situation you would only afford maybe a 3060 at best (which is worse than 1080ti). I suggest getting a 5600G for now, (or a used 2400G, since main objective would be getting a somewhat decent igpu without having to pay much as any igpu is ofc really slow). Stock cpu cooling (u dont need anything fancy until u hit 9 series), good psu, fast ram, a decent B550 mobo (such as Msi B550-A Pro), etc. Build it without dedicated gpu for $1000, test it out, etc. And then just buy a 3080ti for what it will worth in a couple of months. Remember,its not only about the shortage and high gpu prices, but its also about sloppily made cards and some quality control issues https://www.notebookcheck.net/More-...rce-RTX-30-series-cards-emerges.561536.0.html. So even if u pay $800 for a 3060ti (which is ofc a ripoff), you may even get a card with issues.

Surely a 5800x will be better than 5600 for this-
I will use my PC primarily for these things, so it should perform these tasks without any issues:
- Livestreaming and streams (running various streaming programs and other apps in the background)
- Multitasking (I stream while I do other things/projects such as web designing)
- Photo + Video rendering + editing (my current PC takes a long time to perform these tasks, to be honest)
And it's very cheap at the moment too.

 

[Nike_486DX]

Surely a 5800x will be better than 5600 for this-
I will use my PC primarily for these things, so it should perform these tasks without any issues:
- Livestreaming and streams (running various streaming programs and other apps in the background)
- Multitasking (I stream while I do other things/projects such as web designing)
- Photo + Video rendering + editing (my current PC takes a long time to perform these tasks, to be honest)
And it's very cheap at the moment too.

yes but it doesn't have igpu (which forces u to get one, with todays situation when there are scammers everywhere and the prices are ridiculously high). also what if u check out a used 2400g and compare it according to its price/performance ratio? But that is irrelevant if you can get spare parts from ur older pc (?) IF your pc is the one that is mentioned in your system specs, then sure, get a 5800X into there. But as u have a 980ti (1070 level), i would recommend to stick with it for now, except if u desperately need an upgrade.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

yes but it doesnt have igpu (which forces u to get one, with todays stituation when there are scammers everywhere and the prices are ridiculously high). also what if u check out a used 2400g and compare it according to its price/performane ratio? But that is irrelevant if you can get spare parts from ur older pc (?)

he wants it for productivity first, so CPU is more important, games secondary, so he can buy a cheapish shand GPU to tide him over. Same as i did by buying the 980ti. For what he is going to use the machine for, he will need a better CPU than a 5600

 

[GerKNG]

as much as i like AMD there is basically no reason to buy anything else than the 5950x for workstations.
a 5800X costs more (50-100€ depending on sales or not) is on par or slower in games than a 12600k, has a lot less multicore performance than a 12600k, and it's on a dead platform with no upgrade path (raptor lake with up to 24 cores should be compatible with Z690)

and since you want streaming and editing (especially streaming) a 12600k is faster than a 5950X in gaming while (for example) recording.
davinci resolve 4k exports are almost on 5900X level even at stock clocks.
Adobe Premier ingest/proxy is even a lot faster than a 5950x

i'd rather look for a 12600k DDR4 Build (the Z690 Pro A from MSI is fantastic and good enough for everything you can throw in the socket)
and what you save from a b550 board you can spend for the z690 board with a more "future proof" PCIe 5.0 slot and even on the cheapest board available 4 M.2 Slots + proper Intel Lan.

and the 12600k overclocks pretty decent (500Mhz on the P Cores, 600 Mhz on the E Cores and 400-500 Mhz on the Ring is doable without any crazy voltages or cooling requirements)

 

[Deleted member 24505]

as much as i like AMD there is basically no reason to buy anything else than the 5950x for workstations.
a 5800X costs more (50-100€ depending on sales or not) is on par or slower in games than a 12600k, has a lot less multicore performance than a 12600k, and it's on a dead platform with no upgrade path (raptor lake with up to 24 cores should be compatible with Z690)

and since you want streaming and editing (especially streaming) a 12600k is faster than a 5950X in gaming while (for example) recording.
davinci resolve 4k exports are almost on 5900X level even at stock clocks.
Adobe Premier ingest/proxy is even a lot faster than a 5950x

i'd rather look for a 12600k DDR4 Build (the Z690 Pro A from MSI is fantastic and good enough for everything you can throw in the socket)
and what you save from a b550 board you can spend for the z690 board with a more "future proof" PCIe 5.0 slot and even on the cheapest board available 4 M.2 Slots + proper Intel Lan.

and the 12600k overclocks pretty decent (500Mhz on the P Cores, 600 Mhz on the E Cores and 400-500 Mhz on the Ring is doable without any crazy voltages or cooling requirements)

I only suggested 5800z as he said he wanted AMD. I have to agree though on the 12600k though.

 

[Fourstaff]

What resolution are you running your monitor on? For 1080, RTX3060 is enough for the next few years at least, but once you step up to 1440, its starting to struggle. Reusing your graphics card will be the best bet for now.

Don't skimp on the ram either, get 32 or even 64gb if budget allows, since RAM prices are somewhat reasonable right now.

 

[Why_Me]

With Black Friday upcoming and my current PC is not doing its job that well any longer, as it is being overly slow and troublesome when it comes to loading etc. + I cannot play any of the new games that I wanna play because of the specs being bad and whatnot + it's about time to get myself a new PC. This time, I am going for an AMD-setup, and it would be great if it would last for a few years, like 5+ years or so. But, I do not need ALL the parts, as I do have some parts available, such as: monitors (I have 4 available), case (FD R6), power supply (I have a G3 650W now), Noctua-fans in various sizes, mouse and a keyboard. I do need the following parts, however:
- CPU
- CPU cooler
- Graphics card
- Memory
- Motherboard
- SSD
- Power supply

I will use my PC primarily for these things, so it should perform these tasks without any issues:
- Livestreaming and streams (running various streaming programs and other apps in the background)
- Multitasking (I stream while I do other things/projects such as web designing)
- Photo + Video rendering + editing (my current PC takes a long time to perform these tasks, to be honest)
- Light gaming (NO FPS. Mostly sports, RPG, adventure and action games. I am NOT picky when it comes to running all games at max performance/quality etc.)

With Black Friday coming up, I am going to scout for some options, but this time, my budget is about $/€1800, plus-minus.

Any thoughts on a setup that would deal with my tasks nicely?

PS: Look at my listed PC specs for my current setup, if that matters...

What country are you located (Europe is not a country) and what resolution will you be gaming at?

 

[ThaiTaffy]

Sorry but unless you know you can source good parts at reasonable prices there no sane reason to build in the current market your far better off looking for a decent reasonably priced prebuilt better yet a custom builder who can source msrp prices with a small cut for their own labor.

 

[Why_Me]

No idea what country you are located nor your resolution hence the reason I didn't include a psu and gpu but this gives you a rough idea of what you're looking at cost wise if you decide to go with an Intel LGA 1700 Alder Lake build.

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90848813
GIGABYTE Z690 GAMING X DDR4 €175,63

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90849235
Intel Core i5 12600KF €258,25

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90785407
Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 €73,87

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90782615
G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200mhz 32GB (2x16GB) CL16 €96,12

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90742995
Intel 660P M.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 1TB SSD €81,36

Total: €685,23 excl. VAT plus shipping costs

Z690 GAMING X DDR4 (rev. 1.0) Key Features | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ...

www.gigabyte.com

GIGABYTE Releases DRM Fix Tool for Intel Alder Lake Processors to Dynamically Park and Unpark E-Cores

With Intel's Alder Lake processors released, the company introduced a rather interesting concept of mixing high-performance and high-efficiency cores into one design. This hybrid approach combines performance P-cores based on Golden Cove architecture with high-efficiency E-cores based on...

www.techpowerup.com

LGA1700-MOUNTING KITS FOR ALDER LAKE | ARCTIC

Starting in mid-October, ARCTIC will provide mounting kits for all Freezer 34 models, the entire Liquid Freezer II series, the Freezer 50 as well as Freezer i13 X & CO.

www.arctic.de

Reviews of that cpu including benchmarks.

Core i5 12600K processor review

With six performance cores and four energy-efficient ones, the Core i5 12600K might become the most budget-friendly and really well-performing Alder Lake series processor. It offers heaps of performan... Introduction

www.guru3d.com

Intel Core i5-12600K Review - Winning Price/Performance

The Core i5-12600K is the price/performance king in the Intel Alder Lake lineup. With its competitive pricing of $300, it's a clear winner against AMD's Ryzen 5 5600X and faster than even the 5800X in many applications and games. This is the gaming CPU you want.

www.techpowerup.com

Intel Core i5-12600K vs AMD Ryzen 5 5600X and 5800X Face Off: Ryzen Has Fallen

The gaming chip showdown

www.tomshardware.com

 

[winterwonderland]

as much as i like AMD there is basically no reason to buy anything else than the 5950x for workstations.
a 5800X costs more (50-100€ depending on sales or not) is on par or slower in games than a 12600k, has a lot less multicore performance than a 12600k, and it's on a dead platform with no upgrade path (raptor lake with up to 24 cores should be compatible with Z690)

and since you want streaming and editing (especially streaming) a 12600k is faster than a 5950X in gaming while (for example) recording.
davinci resolve 4k exports are almost on 5900X level even at stock clocks.
Adobe Premier ingest/proxy is even a lot faster than a 5950x

i'd rather look for a 12600k DDR4 Build (the Z690 Pro A from MSI is fantastic and good enough for everything you can throw in the socket)
and what you save from a b550 board you can spend for the z690 board with a more "future proof" PCIe 5.0 slot and even on the cheapest board available 4 M.2 Slots + proper Intel Lan.

and the 12600k overclocks pretty decent (500Mhz on the P Cores, 600 Mhz on the E Cores and 400-500 Mhz on the Ring is doable without any crazy voltages or cooling requirements)

I only suggested 5800z as he said he wanted AMD. I have to agree though on the 12600k though.

What resolution are you running your monitor on? For 1080, RTX3060 is enough for the next few years at least, but once you step up to 1440, its starting to struggle. Reusing your graphics card will be the best bet for now.

Don't skimp on the ram either, get 32 or even 64gb if budget allows, since RAM prices are somewhat reasonable right now.

What country are you located (Europe is not a country) and what resolution will you be gaming at?

No idea what country you are located nor your resolution hence the reason I didn't include a psu and gpu but this gives you a rough idea of what you're looking at cost wise if you decide to go with an Intel LGA 1700 Alder Lake build.

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90848813
GIGABYTE Z690 GAMING X DDR4 €175,63

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90849235
Intel Core i5 12600KF €258,25

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90785407
Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 €73,87

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90782615
G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200mhz 32GB (2x16GB) CL16 €96,12

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90742995
Intel 660P M.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 1TB SSD €81,36

Total: €685,23 excl. VAT plus shipping costs

Z690 GAMING X DDR4 (rev. 1.0) Key Features | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ...

www.gigabyte.com

GIGABYTE Releases DRM Fix Tool for Intel Alder Lake Processors to Dynamically Park and Unpark E-Cores

With Intel's Alder Lake processors released, the company introduced a rather interesting concept of mixing high-performance and high-efficiency cores into one design. This hybrid approach combines performance P-cores based on Golden Cove architecture with high-efficiency E-cores based on...

www.techpowerup.com

LGA1700-MOUNTING KITS FOR ALDER LAKE | ARCTIC

Starting in mid-October, ARCTIC will provide mounting kits for all Freezer 34 models, the entire Liquid Freezer II series, the Freezer 50 as well as Freezer i13 X & CO.

www.arctic.de

Reviews of that cpu including benchmarks.

Core i5 12600K processor review

With six performance cores and four energy-efficient ones, the Core i5 12600K might become the most budget-friendly and really well-performing Alder Lake series processor. It offers heaps of performan... Introduction

www.guru3d.com

Intel Core i5-12600K Review - Winning Price/Performance

The Core i5-12600K is the price/performance king in the Intel Alder Lake lineup. With its competitive pricing of $300, it's a clear winner against AMD's Ryzen 5 5600X and faster than even the 5800X in many applications and games. This is the gaming CPU you want.

www.techpowerup.com

Intel Core i5-12600K vs AMD Ryzen 5 5600X and 5800X Face Off: Ryzen Has Fallen

The gaming chip showdown

www.tomshardware.com

Oh wow. An Intel-setup is that much better?! And seemingly a lot cheaper too? Is an AMD-setup really not that worthy anymore, huh?

Yes, the 5950X will be overkill for my budget, unfortunately.

I am located in Norway.

My resolution (because of my eyes) will mostly be 1080p. Things get too "detailed" and "small" for me and my eyes at 1440p. Weird, i know, but it's just how it is. Yes, i am aware that eventually, i should consider upgrading to a 1440p-setup too. It should be noted that the monitors that have, are 1440p-monitors...

And yes, i intend getting at least 32gb RAM.

Say if i go for the Intel-setup, how "future proof" will the Intel-setup be?

Thank you all so much for the responses and help!

 

[Vya Domus]

Say if i go for the Intel-setup, how "future proof" will the Intel-setup be?

As a platform, it wont be. Not unless you buy into DDR5, even then who knows, Intel is known for switching sockets and chipsets very often.

If possible I'd wait for AMD to make the switch to DDR5.

 

[Why_Me]

As a platform, it wont be. Not unless you buy into DDR5, even then who knows, Intel is known for switching sockets and chipsets very often.

If possible I'd wait for AMD to make the switch to DDR5.

And when do you think AMD will make the switch to DDR5?

 

[Deleted member 24505]

This intel socket should be good for at least this and the next intel cpu. He can get a cheapish intel board for AL now and switch boards when DDR 5 is actually available. Unless you switch setups every year AL should be good for a few years at least, better than waiting for AM5

 

[Wirko]

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90849235
Intel Core i5 12600KF €258,25

I'd rather pick a 12600K for 265€. Having an working system without a discrete GPU can come in handy. There's also QuickSync as a part of iGPU, maybe it can be put to good use too.

Intel Core i5 12600K tray Buy

Intel Core i5 12600K tray Buy | online at computeruniverse online Shop | High End Deca Core CPU, tray

www.computeruniverse.net

I've checked several other retailers and the price difference between 12600KF/tray and 12600K/tray is very small, or none at all.

 

[dgianstefani]

12700k, any z690 DDR4 mobo, Noctua NH-U12A, 32gb of 3800/4000mhz c16 or lower ram, a decent 1/2TB ssd from reviews. I would also splurge on a better PSU, like a Seasonic Prime.

Save the spare money for next year when Eth goes POS, then buy your GPU, otherwise you will be spending 2x MSRP. Integrated GPU on 12700k is good enough for 1080p medium gaming anyway.

Otherwise buy a placeholder GPU like a 1050ti.

Reading your post again, you don't need a strong GPU, but a strong CPU would benefit you, further reason to either keep your 970 or use IGPU on the 12700k.

 

[winterwonderland]

12700k, any z690 DDR4 mobo, Noctua NH-U12A, 32gb of 3800/4000mhz c16 or lower ram, a decent 1/2TB ssd from reviews. I would also splurge on a better PSU, like a Seasonic Prime.

Save the spare money for next year when Eth goes POS, then buy your GPU, otherwise you will be spending 2x MSRP. Integrated GPU on 12700k is good enough for 1080p medium gaming anyway.

Otherwise buy a placeholder GPU like a 1050ti.

Reading your post again, you don't need a strong GPU, but a strong CPU would benefit you, further reason to either keep your 970 or use IGPU on the 12700k.

Thanks for the input.

Yes, that seasonic prime seems like a very good one to get. Overall good reviews and seems to do the trick/job as well, at least for my purposes.

So, you're saying that i should KEEP the GPU i am using now, and instead upgrade it at a later point, maybe next year or so?

So.... it all points to the fact that i should opt for an Intel-setup then, huh? That's a massive surprise, but i am definitely up for it if that is the way to go, yes.

 

[Selaya]

An [EVGA] G3's fine, it's a Superflower. If you insist, you can of course buy the Prime but tbh it is quite unnecessary as long as your PSU isn't failing.
Do note that there's still some compability issues w/ E-cores tho, they may or may not get smoothed out in the upcoming weeks and/or months.

 

[Why_Me]

An [EVGA] G3's fine, it's a Superflower. If you insist, you can of course buy the Prime but tbh it is quite unnecessary as long as your PSU isn't failing.
Do note that there's still some compability issues w/ E-cores tho, they may or may not get smoothed out in the upcoming weeks and/or months.

The board in that build I posted up above.

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90848813
GIGABYTE Z690 GAMING X DDR4 €175,63

Z690 GAMING X DDR4 (rev. 1.0) Key Features | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ...

www.gigabyte.com

GIGABYTE Releases DRM Fix Tool for Intel Alder Lake Processors to Dynamically Park and Unpark E-Cores

With Intel's Alder Lake processors released, the company introduced a rather interesting concept of mixing high-performance and high-efficiency cores into one design. This hybrid approach combines performance P-cores based on Golden Cove architecture with high-efficiency E-cores based on...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[winterwonderland]

The board in that build I posted up above.

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90848813
GIGABYTE Z690 GAMING X DDR4 €175,63

Z690 GAMING X DDR4 (rev. 1.0) Key Features | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ...

www.gigabyte.com

GIGABYTE Releases DRM Fix Tool for Intel Alder Lake Processors to Dynamically Park and Unpark E-Cores

With Intel's Alder Lake processors released, the company introduced a rather interesting concept of mixing high-performance and high-efficiency cores into one design. This hybrid approach combines performance P-cores based on Golden Cove architecture with high-efficiency E-cores based on...

www.techpowerup.com

Interesting. The Intel-setup you posted landed on about €1000 (with VAT + shipping), but without GPU + PSU. What about a CPU-cooler, or that is what the Arctic Freeze II is for, i assume? I have never used liquid cooling, so i am not sure how that works.

What about GPU and PSU..? Will the one i already have (see my setup on my profile) work good, or i need a stronger W one?

So, this seems to be the setup to go for, huh?

 

[Why_Me]

Interesting. The Intel-setup you posted landed on about €1000 (with VAT + shipping), but without GPU + PSU. What about a CPU-cooler, or that is what the Arctic Freeze II is for, i assume? I have never used liquid cooling, so i am not sure how that works.

What about GPU and PSU..? Will the one i already have (see my setup on my profile) work good, or i need a stronger W one?

So, this seems to be the setup to go for, huh?

You can reuse your current gpu for now until you find a deal. Here's an option to have a look at.

1080P

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90803642
EVGA 650 GT Gaming 650W 80+ Gold Modular Power Supply €63,02

MSI GeForce RTX 3060 GAMING X LHR 12 GB Buy

MSI GeForce RTX 3060 GAMING X LHR 12 GB Buy | online at computeruniverse online Shop | NVIDIA® GeForce RTX™ 3060 (LHR), Overclocked

www.computeruniverse.net

MSI GeForce RTX 3060 GAMING X LHR 12GB €714,28

 

[dgianstefani]

You can reuse your current gpu for now until you find a deal. Here's a few options to have a look at.

1080P

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90803642
EVGA 650 GT Gaming 650W 80+ Gold Modular Power Supply €63,02

MSI GeForce RTX 3060 GAMING X LHR 12 GB Buy

MSI GeForce RTX 3060 GAMING X LHR 12 GB Buy | online at computeruniverse online Shop | NVIDIA® GeForce RTX™ 3060 (LHR), Overclocked

www.computeruniverse.net

MSI GeForce RTX 3060 GAMING X LHR 12GB €714,28

1440P

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90824520
EVGA SuperNova 750 GA 750W 80+ Gold Modular Power Supply €72,77

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90835060
ASUS DUAL GeForce RTX 3070 OC V2 DUAL-RTX3070-O8G-V2 8GB €923,53

Read the OP, he does light gaming in 1080p.

 

[winterwonderland]

You can reuse your current gpu for now until you find a deal. Here's an option to have a look at.

1080P

https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/p/90803642
EVGA 650 GT Gaming 650W 80+ Gold Modular Power Supply €63,02

MSI GeForce RTX 3060 GAMING X LHR 12 GB Buy

MSI GeForce RTX 3060 GAMING X LHR 12 GB Buy | online at computeruniverse online Shop | NVIDIA® GeForce RTX™ 3060 (LHR), Overclocked

www.computeruniverse.net

MSI GeForce RTX 3060 GAMING X LHR 12GB €714,28

Ok, so i will definitely go for the INTEL-setup, not AMD then. What a surprise that was, but i love it!

Few questions:
1: If i can get the i7 12700KF to about the same price as 12600KF, i should go for the 12700KF, yes? Otherwise, i will go for the 12600KF.
2: What PSU options are worth for me to get? 650~1000W recommendations would be good. Are EVGA SuperNova still good enough ones to get, yes?
3: The Arctic Cooler, i only need that, and nothing else in terms of external things? Pardon for that newbie question.
4: Will the Z690 X DDR4 fit into my case, which is Fractal Design Define R6, or?