• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

AMD Readying 16-core "Zen 4" CCDs Exclusively for the Client Segment with an Answer to Intel E-cores?

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
46,277 (7.69/day)
Location
Hyderabad, India
System Name RBMK-1000
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5700G
Motherboard ASUS ROG Strix B450-E Gaming
Cooling DeepCool Gammax L240 V2
Memory 2x 8GB G.Skill Sniper X
Video Card(s) Palit GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER GameRock
Storage Western Digital Black NVMe 512GB
Display(s) BenQ 1440p 60 Hz 27-inch
Case Corsair Carbide 100R
Audio Device(s) ASUS SupremeFX S1220A
Power Supply Cooler Master MWE Gold 650W
Mouse ASUS ROG Strix Impact
Keyboard Gamdias Hermes E2
Software Windows 11 Pro
AMD already declared the CPU core counts of its EPYC "Genoa" and "Bergamo" processors to top out at 96 and 128, respectively, a core-count believed to have been facilitated by the larger fiberglass substrate of the next-gen SP5 CPU socket, letting AMD add more 8-core "Zen 4" chiplets, dubbed CPU complex dies (CCDs). Until now, AMD has used the chiplet as a common component between its EPYC enterprise and Ryzen desktop processors, to differentiate CPU core counts.

A fascinating theory that hit the rumor-mill, indicates that the company might leverage 5 nm (TSMC N5) carve out larger CCDs with up to 16 "Zen 4" CPU cores. Half of these cores are capped at a much lower power budget, essentially making them efficient-cores. This is a concept AMD appears to be carrying over from its 15-Watt class mobile processors, which see the CPU cores operate under an aggressive power-management. These cores still turn out a reasonable amount of performance, and are functionally identical to the ones on 105 W desktop processors with a relaxed power budget.



Since the "fat" and "slim" cores are functionally identical to each other; AMD need not develop a complex middleware like the Intel Thread Director, and can make do with OS scheduler-level optimizations that it can co-develop with Microsoft or the Linux community, much like it did for older versions of the "Zen" microarchitecture that featured multiple CCXs.

The theory also predicts that AMD might build on the 3D Vertical Cache technology. The next-gen CCD might feature two layers, the bottom layer with CPU cores and their dedicated L2 caches; and a top layer exclusively for a 64 MB 3D Vertical Cache serving as a shared L3 cache. In the "Zen 3" 3DV Cache CCD, the 64 MB SRAM is located above the region of the CCD that typically has its 32 MB L3 cache, a relatively cooler component than the CPU cores. On the new CCD, this SRAM could be located over the region that has the low-TDP cores, pushing the high-TDP "performance" cores to the periphery of the die, with structural silicon conducting heat from these cores to the surface.

This theory is way out there, but it's plausible because AMD doesn't have a formidable low-power CPU core architecture to rival "Gracemont." and because Intel's next-gen "Raptor Lake" chips are rumored to see the addition of more E-core clusters, making the "i9-13900K" a 24-core processor, beating AMD in the core-count game. If we were to nitpick, we'd point out that the low-TDP cores take as much valuable die real-estate and transistor-count as the high-TDP cores; and die-size (i.e. wafer volumes) are a rather scarce resource these days. We'll find out in the second half of 2022.

Many thanks to TheoneandonlyMrK for the tip

View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 

MxPhenom 216

ASIC Engineer
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
12,944 (2.61/day)
Location
Loveland, CO
System Name Ryzen Reflection
Processor AMD Ryzen 9 5900x
Motherboard Gigabyte X570S Aorus Master
Cooling 2x EK PE360 | TechN AM4 AMD Block Black | EK Quantum Vector Trinity GPU Nickel + Plexi
Memory Teamgroup T-Force Xtreem 2x16GB B-Die 3600 @ 14-14-14-28-42-288-2T 1.45v
Video Card(s) Zotac AMP HoloBlack RTX 3080Ti 12G | 950mV 1950Mhz
Storage WD SN850 500GB (OS) | Samsung 980 Pro 1TB (Games_1) | Samsung 970 Evo 1TB (Games_2)
Display(s) Asus XG27AQM 240Hz G-Sync Fast-IPS | Gigabyte M27Q-P 165Hz 1440P IPS | Asus 24" IPS (portrait mode)
Case Lian Li PC-011D XL | Custom cables by Cablemodz
Audio Device(s) FiiO K7 | Sennheiser HD650 + Beyerdynamic FOX Mic
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Ultra Platinum 850
Mouse Razer Viper v2 Pro
Keyboard Razer Huntsman Tournament Edition
Software Windows 11 Pro 64-Bit
I think we are in for some pretty awesome competition with Raptor Lake and Zen4 this year. Competition I don't think we have seen since Core 2 and Phenom days to be honest.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Messages
1,188 (0.45/day)
Theorizing is moot at this point because Zen 4 is done and was just demoed at CES. Insiders and tech sites need to focus on finding leaks and verifying their accuracy. The Zen 4 config answer is out there and Lisa Su had it in her hands two days ago. Someone needs to slip into her wardrobe a suit jacket with holes in the pockets.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
7,194 (3.86/day)
System Name Bragging Rights
Processor Atom Z3735F 1.33GHz
Motherboard It has no markings but it's green
Cooling No, it's a 2.2W processor
Memory 2GB DDR3L-1333
Video Card(s) Gen7 Intel HD (4EU @ 311MHz)
Storage 32GB eMMC and 128GB Sandisk Extreme U3
Display(s) 10" IPS 1280x800 60Hz
Case Veddha T2
Audio Device(s) Apparently, yes
Power Supply Samsung 18W 5V fast-charger
Mouse MX Anywhere 2
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys (not Cherry MX at all)
VR HMD Samsung Oddyssey, not that I'd plug it into this though....
Software W10 21H1, barely
Benchmark Scores I once clocked a Celeron-300A to 564MHz on an Abit BE6 and it scored over 9000.
Keeping the P cores and E cores functionally identical is pretty much vital for heterogenous CPU architectures until the OS, scheduler, and (to some extent) applications themselves get a whole lot smarter.

Presumably the only things stopping AMD from making a 16P+16E product into a 32P product will be the power limits and cooling to such a small socket, as well as the desire not to cannibalise their Threadripper sales.
 
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
9,231 (1.66/day)
Location
Montreal, Canada
System Name Homelabs
Processor Ryzen 5900x | Ryzen 1920X
Motherboard Asus ProArt x570 Creator | AsRock X399 fatal1ty gaming
Cooling Silent Loop 2 280mm | Dark Rock Pro TR4
Memory 128GB (4x32gb) DDR4 3600Mhz | 128GB (8x16GB) DDR4 2933Mhz
Video Card(s) EVGA RTX 3080 | ASUS Strix GTX 970
Storage Optane 900p + NVMe | Optane 900p + 8TB SATA SSDs + 48TB HDDs
Display(s) Alienware AW3423dw QD-OLED | HP Omen 32 1440p
Case be quiet! Dark Base Pro 900 rev 2 | be quiet! Silent Base 800
Power Supply Corsair RM750x + sleeved cables| EVGA P2 750W
Mouse Razer Viper Ultimate (still has buttons on the right side, crucial as I'm a southpaw)
Keyboard Razer Huntsman Elite, Pro Type | Logitech G915 TKL
I wonder how well AMD evolved efficiency-wise, how would a 5800x fare against the 1700 with the same power usage?
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
229 (0.04/day)
System Name 3950X Workstation
Processor AMD Ryzen 9 3950X
Motherboard ASUS Crosshair VIII Impact
Cooling Cryorig C1 with Noctua NF-A12x15
Memory G.Skill F4-3600C16D-32GTZNC
Video Card(s) ASUS GTX 1650 LP OC
Storage 2 x Corsair MP510 1920GB M.2 SSD
Case Realan E-i7
Power Supply G-Unique 400W
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/the-saga-of-the-little-gem-continues.12877/
This is not a pipe dream at all but totally doable considering what AMD did already. Probably not Zen 4, but a Zen4+ level product. Could even be a single SKU as response to Intel 24 core...
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
351 (0.20/day)
System Name Cyberdyne Systems Core
Processor AMD Sceptre 9 3950x Quantum neural processor (384 nodes)
Motherboard Cyberdyne X1470
Cooling Cyberdyne Superconduct SC5600
Memory 128TB QRAM
Storage SK 16EB NVMe PCI-E 9.0 x8
Display(s) Multiple LG C9 3D Matrix OLED Cube
Software Skysoft Skynet
I think we are in for some pretty awesome competition with Raptor Lake and Zen4 this year. Competition I don't think we have seen since Core 2 and Phenom days to be honest.
There was competition back then? Phenom sucked. They've had good competition since Zen+ though.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
177 (0.05/day)
There was competition back then? Phenom sucked. They've had good competition since Zen+ though.
Nonsense. Phenom II chips offered excellent price/performance, especially when you could often unlock extra cores on them for free. They weren't competitive with high-end Nehalem and onwards, but for a mainstream system in 2009/10 they were a fantastic option.
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
35 (0.03/day)
AMD is readying a Zen 4c core, which is a power optimised version of the Zen 4 core.

It was meant to be paired with the Zen 5 big core in the next generation design that borrows the efficiency core idea.

It may be that it will be ready far sooner than the Zen 5 core, and can be used in a high-end Zen 4 CCD utilising 3D cache (perhaps not at Zen 4 launch) in an 8+8 configuration.

Power optimised (lower max clock) cores can use smaller transistors, less L1 cache, perhaps even thinner vector units, to save die space.

Additionally, TSMC N5 is 1.8x denser for logic than N7/N6, but only 1.2x denser for SRAM (cache), so moving that onto a stacked N7 3D cache die makes a huge amount of sense, freeing up a lot of die space for slightly space/power optimised efficiency cores.

When you consider existing CPUs, we already see that the max all-core clock is far lower (primarily for power reasons) than the single/dual core turbo. So why have every core in the CCD able to reach that single core turbo speed? Once you realise this, AMD's plan makes a lot of sense. Intel's less so, as their efficiency cores are different designs, and have disabled AVX512 as a result in the big cores.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
11,878 (2.31/day)
Location
Manchester uk
System Name RyzenGtEvo/ Asus strix scar II
Processor Amd R5 5900X/ Intel 8750H
Motherboard Crosshair hero8 impact/Asus
Cooling 360EK extreme rad+ 360$EK slim all push, cpu ek suprim Gpu full cover all EK
Memory Corsair Vengeance Rgb pro 3600cas14 16Gb in four sticks./16Gb/16GB
Video Card(s) Powercolour RX7900XT Reference/Rtx 2060
Storage Silicon power 2TB nvme/8Tb external/1Tb samsung Evo nvme 2Tb sata ssd/1Tb nvme
Display(s) Samsung UAE28"850R 4k freesync.dell shiter
Case Lianli 011 dynamic/strix scar2
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup, corsair void pro headset
Power Supply corsair 1200Hxi/Asus stock
Mouse Roccat Kova/ Logitech G wireless
Keyboard Roccat Aimo 120
VR HMD Oculus rift
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 8726 vega 3dmark timespy/ laptop Timespy 6506
I think this looks to be the best way to do big little per say but.
I am still not sold on big little though, better power gating and frequency control should to me, logically make them pointless.

We will see though.

@btarunr one point though, it's a schematic , it doesn't show die size's, it's possible there's a difference in size, and features still technically, I'm sure they shaved some excess off but then again those low power cores beat a 5800X allegedly so who knows.

Good times though as someone else said,. Competition, fantastic.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
397 (0.08/day)
Location
Germany (Euregio)
Processor Ryzen 5600X
Video Card(s) RTX 3050
Software Win11
I personally think this theory is nonsense, because AMD wont make 3 different CCDs, one for Bergamo pure Zen4c, one pure normal Zen4, and this mixed one with expensive V-Cache ?
And the Zen4c in Bergamo exists only because the smaller area and the target market wich has workload that doesnt need big caches.
Efficiency-wise the "normal" Zen4 can go to very low TDPs AND to high frequency, no need for Zen4c cores here, because there are virtually no area restrictions for those plattforms in its segments.

I think AMD could use Zen4c cores in SoCs like 5G stations intel targets with its 24-core Tremont and Gracemont offerings.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
11,878 (2.31/day)
Location
Manchester uk
System Name RyzenGtEvo/ Asus strix scar II
Processor Amd R5 5900X/ Intel 8750H
Motherboard Crosshair hero8 impact/Asus
Cooling 360EK extreme rad+ 360$EK slim all push, cpu ek suprim Gpu full cover all EK
Memory Corsair Vengeance Rgb pro 3600cas14 16Gb in four sticks./16Gb/16GB
Video Card(s) Powercolour RX7900XT Reference/Rtx 2060
Storage Silicon power 2TB nvme/8Tb external/1Tb samsung Evo nvme 2Tb sata ssd/1Tb nvme
Display(s) Samsung UAE28"850R 4k freesync.dell shiter
Case Lianli 011 dynamic/strix scar2
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup, corsair void pro headset
Power Supply corsair 1200Hxi/Asus stock
Mouse Roccat Kova/ Logitech G wireless
Keyboard Roccat Aimo 120
VR HMD Oculus rift
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 8726 vega 3dmark timespy/ laptop Timespy 6506
I personally think this theory is nonsense, because AMD wont make 3 different CCDs, one for Bergamo pure Zen4c, one pure normal Zen4, and this mixed one with expensive V-Cache ?
And the Zen4c in Bergamo exists only because the smaller area and the target market wich has workload that doesnt need big caches.
Efficiency-wise the "normal" Zen4 can go to very low TDPs AND to high frequency, no need for Zen4c cores here, because there are virtually no area restrictions for those plattforms in its segments.

I think AMD could use Zen4c cores in SoCs like 5G stations intel targets with its 24-core Tremont and Gracemont offerings.
Your answering like you don't know they're still making Zen 2 & 3 cores plus all the new ones.

If you sell a enterprise part, and all these were in enterprise parts , your obliged to support that part for sometimes 10+ years.

Plus I think they're upto at least 6 concurrent core designs in production now soo.
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2021
Messages
214 (0.20/day)
It kind of sounds like wishful thinking from AMD fans who are (rightly or wrongly) scared by Intel's hybrid approach.
If we were to nitpick, we'd point out that the low-TDP cores take as much valuable die real-estate and transistor-count as the high-TDP cores; and die-size (i.e. wafer volumes) are a rather scarce resource these days. We'll find out in the second half of 2022.
Hypothetically speaking, as long as they can keep the first place in benchmarks and reviews they could simply make few parts and ask for an arm and a leg for them. I'm looking forward to how they're going to price the 5800X3D in order to test this hypothesis.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
11,878 (2.31/day)
Location
Manchester uk
System Name RyzenGtEvo/ Asus strix scar II
Processor Amd R5 5900X/ Intel 8750H
Motherboard Crosshair hero8 impact/Asus
Cooling 360EK extreme rad+ 360$EK slim all push, cpu ek suprim Gpu full cover all EK
Memory Corsair Vengeance Rgb pro 3600cas14 16Gb in four sticks./16Gb/16GB
Video Card(s) Powercolour RX7900XT Reference/Rtx 2060
Storage Silicon power 2TB nvme/8Tb external/1Tb samsung Evo nvme 2Tb sata ssd/1Tb nvme
Display(s) Samsung UAE28"850R 4k freesync.dell shiter
Case Lianli 011 dynamic/strix scar2
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup, corsair void pro headset
Power Supply corsair 1200Hxi/Asus stock
Mouse Roccat Kova/ Logitech G wireless
Keyboard Roccat Aimo 120
VR HMD Oculus rift
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 8726 vega 3dmark timespy/ laptop Timespy 6506
It kind of sounds like wishful thinking from Intel fans who are (rightly or wrongly) scared by Amd's hybrid approach.

Hypothetically speaking, as long as they can keep the first place in benchmarks and reviews they could simply make few parts and ask for an arm and a leg for them. I'm looking forward to how they're going to price the i7 12800KS in order to test this hypothesis.
Fixed that for you, ironic as shit the real world where both do the same shit for benches, completely different ways, but the tudes not warranted, you could be wrong.
 
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
2,593 (2.20/day)
Location
Slovenia
Processor i5-6600K
Motherboard Asus Z170A
Cooling some cheap Cooler Master Hyper 103 or similar
Memory 16GB DDR4-2400
Video Card(s) IGP
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 250GB
Display(s) 2x Oldell 24" 1920x1200
Case Bitfenix Nova white windowless non-mesh
Audio Device(s) E-mu 1212m PCI
Power Supply Seasonic G-360
Mouse Logitech Marble trackball, never had a mouse
Keyboard Key Tronic KT2000, no Win key because 1994
Software Oldwin
Having a CPU like the one Lisa Su showed off would be nice. The cores on the chiplet with 3D cache would act as "Performance" cores, and those on the chiplet without it would be "Efficient" cores.
So, after all, AMD kept chewing on that prototype in Lisa's hand, and then did their P+E thing this way.
 
Joined
May 31, 2016
Messages
4,323 (1.51/day)
Location
Currently Norway
System Name Bro2
Processor Ryzen 5800X
Motherboard Gigabyte X570 Aorus Elite
Cooling Corsair h115i pro rgb
Memory 16GB G.Skill Flare X 3200 CL14 @3800Mhz CL16
Video Card(s) Powercolor 6900 XT Red Devil 1.1v@2400Mhz
Storage M.2 Samsung 970 Evo Plus 500MB/ Samsung 860 Evo 1TB
Display(s) LG 27UD69 UHD / LG 27GN950
Case Fractal Design G
Audio Device(s) Realtec 5.1
Power Supply Seasonic 750W GOLD
Mouse Logitech G402
Keyboard Logitech slim
Software Windows 10 64 bit
Hmm. I dont know what to think about it honestly. Intel gives slower cores and now AMD gives slower cores and everyone is celebrating tech advancement.
Seems weird to me though. They cant pull off full speed cores with balanced power so they wrap their CPUs in a nice big.little scheme and go with it.

I don't know but that is my impression.
 
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
2,593 (2.20/day)
Location
Slovenia
Processor i5-6600K
Motherboard Asus Z170A
Cooling some cheap Cooler Master Hyper 103 or similar
Memory 16GB DDR4-2400
Video Card(s) IGP
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 250GB
Display(s) 2x Oldell 24" 1920x1200
Case Bitfenix Nova white windowless non-mesh
Audio Device(s) E-mu 1212m PCI
Power Supply Seasonic G-360
Mouse Logitech Marble trackball, never had a mouse
Keyboard Key Tronic KT2000, no Win key because 1994
Software Oldwin
Hmm. I dont know what to think about it honestly. Intel gives slower cores and now AMD gives slower cores and everyone is celebrating tech advancement.
Seems weird to me though. They cant pull off full speed cores with balanced power so they wrap their CPUs in a nice big.little scheme and go with it.

I don't know but that is my impression.
Price per transistor is not going down any longer with new nodes. Same for power density. It's possible that it never will again. So, with a limited number of transistors that can be stuck into a $500 chip, they're inventing new tricks like these.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
3,944 (0.65/day)
Location
Police/Nanny State of America
Processor OCed 5800X3D
Motherboard Asucks C6H
Cooling Air
Memory 32GB
Video Card(s) OCed 6800XT
Storage NVMees
Display(s) 32" Dull curved 1440
Case Freebie glass idk
Audio Device(s) Sennheiser
Power Supply Don't even remember
There was competition back then? Phenom sucked. They've had good competition since Zen+ though.

Phenom II was good, though. I had a 940 at 4GHz forever. It never game me an issue and ran games beautifully even in xfire.
Everything was behind, b/c no money thanks to a big blue criminal.
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Messages
1,745 (1.51/day)
Location
Alaska USA
Hmm. I dont know what to think about it honestly. Intel gives slower cores and now AMD gives slower cores and everyone is celebrating tech advancement.
Seems weird to me though. They cant pull off full speed cores with balanced power so they wrap their CPUs in a nice big.little scheme and go with it.

I don't know but that is my impression.
The 'big-little scheme' seems to be working.

https://www.newegg.com/intel-core-i7-12700f-core-i7-12th-gen/p/N82E16819118359
Intel Core i7-12700F $329.99

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X $378.98

 
Joined
May 31, 2016
Messages
4,323 (1.51/day)
Location
Currently Norway
System Name Bro2
Processor Ryzen 5800X
Motherboard Gigabyte X570 Aorus Elite
Cooling Corsair h115i pro rgb
Memory 16GB G.Skill Flare X 3200 CL14 @3800Mhz CL16
Video Card(s) Powercolor 6900 XT Red Devil 1.1v@2400Mhz
Storage M.2 Samsung 970 Evo Plus 500MB/ Samsung 860 Evo 1TB
Display(s) LG 27UD69 UHD / LG 27GN950
Case Fractal Design G
Audio Device(s) Realtec 5.1
Power Supply Seasonic 750W GOLD
Mouse Logitech G402
Keyboard Logitech slim
Software Windows 10 64 bit
The 'big-little scheme' seems to be working.

https://www.newegg.com/intel-core-i7-12700f-core-i7-12th-gen/p/N82E16819118359
Intel Core i7-12700F $329.99

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X $378.98

It is working. Glad you find your CPUs working. It would have been hardly possible for them not to work. My concern is different. AMD will offer less for the same price. Didn't the Intel fans say "moar coars"? Everywhere you look. AMD will lower the performance of cores but increase the number of them but still the performance for those will be weaker and that is supposed to be an improvement.
These work because the software development must adjust. With monopoly for a product everyone has to adjust to the change either good or bad. You think with duopoly it's different?
The cores will perform worse to save power but there will be more of them. I'm just point it out not saying this will not work. It will work but the point still stands. They will offer less for the same price cause I doubt the prices will go down for those chips.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
2,178 (0.54/day)
Location
Deez Nutz, bozo!
System Name Rainbow Puke Machine :D
Processor Intel Core i5-11400 (MCE enabled, PL removed)
Motherboard ASUS STRIX B560-G GAMING WIFI mATX
Cooling Corsair H60i RGB PRO XT AIO + HD120 RGB (x3) + SP120 RGB PRO (x3) + Commander PRO
Memory Corsair Vengeance RGB RT 2 x 8GB 3200MHz DDR4 C16
Video Card(s) Zotac RTX2060 Twin Fan 6GB GDDR6 (Stock)
Storage Corsair MP600 PRO 1TB M.2 PCIe Gen4 x4 SSD
Display(s) LG 29WK600-W Ultrawide 1080p IPS Monitor (primary display)
Case Corsair iCUE 220T RGB Airflow (White) w/Lighting Node CORE + Lighting Node PRO RGB LED Strips (x4).
Audio Device(s) ASUS ROG Supreme FX S1220A w/ Savitech SV3H712 AMP + Sonic Studio 3 suite
Power Supply Corsair RM750x 80 Plus Gold Fully Modular
Mouse Corsair M65 RGB FPS Gaming (White)
Keyboard Corsair K60 PRO RGB Mechanical w/ Cherry VIOLA Switches
VR HMD Pico 4 128GB AIO VR Headset* (* = in consideration of getting one)
Software Windows 10 Professional x64 (Update 22H2)
good to see there's competition again between these two. But, with how AMD shifted from being the darlings of budget builders to "I don't care about you as long I make profit", I don't think this would impact Intel in a big way since Alder Lake is still gonna be more "affordable" considering the lower tier chipset such as B660 and H670 offering PCIe Gen5 and has DDR4 backward compatibility. Not sure how AMD will tackle on those aspects but something tells me that they're focusing more on PCIe Gen5 and DDR5, which will make them the more expensive brand (again) when it comes to building a new PC...
 
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Messages
2,082 (0.43/day)
I prefer to have full blown high end CPU cores from AMD and not a mix in between. I mean if power is such an issue, i just hit power saving in Windows (which i do when i do low priority stuff anyways).

Hmm. I dont know what to think about it honestly. Intel gives slower cores and now AMD gives slower cores and everyone is celebrating tech advancement.
Seems weird to me though. They cant pull off full speed cores with balanced power so they wrap their CPUs in a nice big.little scheme and go with it.

I don't know but that is my impression.

It has'nt bin a tech innovation at all. This has bin in effect for mobile phones quite some time. And some use case applications it works.

The idea is that you dont need a ferrari engine to do your grocery's. A simple one litre 3 cilinder engine could do the same task but way more efficient.

But i prefer all fast cores instead of that half mixed up stuff. If power is an issue hit the power saving feature and done.
 
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
397 (0.08/day)
Location
Germany (Euregio)
Processor Ryzen 5600X
Video Card(s) RTX 3050
Software Win11
yeah, you are right Mr.K and i never want to offend anybody but want to understand the whole way of the decision AMD could take,
so in regard of the actual concurrently produced die diversity, of course you are right, too.

nevertheless the ~10 year support/supply of these dies makes a decision on wich design to produce necessary and thus these will take a percentage of the available production lines at TSMC or elsewhere.
so, yes i think 1 die of each would be sufficient, Zen4, Zen4c, and some monolithic big APU and one small like Athlon 300 maybe.

The picture you show, where the whole L3 (maybe? including L3-Control, L3-Tags and L2-ShadowTags) are only in the V-Cache-Layer. I find that problematic.
And the area the Zen4c cores take in your picture, again seem not necessary to me in the layout you chose,
because in the Zen3 layout below full equally big cores are placeable easily where the L3 sits normally.
So for me it makes nearly no sense area wise or efficiency wise.
But obviously i could be be totally wrong of course.



additonally i think of a possible approach of a 5950X successor containing 1 CCD housing one Zen4 8-core complex, PLUS 1 Bergamo-style CCD housing 16 Zen4c cores.
making it a dual CCD AM5 CPU with 24 Cores and 48 Threads
best thing of that approarch would be that no "special hybrid CCD" is needed
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
11,878 (2.31/day)
Location
Manchester uk
System Name RyzenGtEvo/ Asus strix scar II
Processor Amd R5 5900X/ Intel 8750H
Motherboard Crosshair hero8 impact/Asus
Cooling 360EK extreme rad+ 360$EK slim all push, cpu ek suprim Gpu full cover all EK
Memory Corsair Vengeance Rgb pro 3600cas14 16Gb in four sticks./16Gb/16GB
Video Card(s) Powercolour RX7900XT Reference/Rtx 2060
Storage Silicon power 2TB nvme/8Tb external/1Tb samsung Evo nvme 2Tb sata ssd/1Tb nvme
Display(s) Samsung UAE28"850R 4k freesync.dell shiter
Case Lianli 011 dynamic/strix scar2
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup, corsair void pro headset
Power Supply corsair 1200Hxi/Asus stock
Mouse Roccat Kova/ Logitech G wireless
Keyboard Roccat Aimo 120
VR HMD Oculus rift
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 8726 vega 3dmark timespy/ laptop Timespy 6506
It is working. Glad you find your CPUs working. It would have been hardly possible for them not to work. My concern is different. AMD will offer less for the same price. Didn't the Intel fans say "moar coars"? Everywhere you look. AMD will lower the performance of cores but increase the number of them but still the performance for those will be weaker and that is supposed to be an improvement.
These work because the software development must adjust. With monopoly for a product everyone has to adjust to the change either good or bad. You think with duopoly it's different?
The cores will perform worse to save power but there will be more of them. I'm just point it out not saying this will not work. It will work but the point still stands. They will offer less for the same price cause I doubt the prices will go down for those chips.
Yeh except your wrong the cores perform better, even Intel's E cores are skylake grade and they are still equipped with bigger cores than ever before soo
yeah, you are right Mr.K and i never want to offend anybody but want to understand the whole way of the decision AMD could take,
so in regard of the actual concurrently produced die diversity, of course you are right, too.

nevertheless the ~10 year support/supply of these dies makes a decision on wich design to produce necessary and thus these will take a percentage of the available production lines at TSMC or elsewhere.
so, yes i think 1 die of each would be sufficient, Zen4, Zen4c, and some monolithic big APU and one small like Athlon 300 maybe.

The picture you show, where the whole L3 (maybe? including L3-Control, L3-Tags and L2-ShadowTags) are only in the V-Cache-Layer. I find that problematic.
And the area the Zen4c cores take in your picture, again seem not necessary to me in the layout you chose,
because in the Zen3 layout below full equally big cores are placeable easily where the L3 sits normally.
So for me it makes nearly no sense area wise or efficiency wise.
But obviously i could be be totally wrong of course.



additonally i think of a possible approach of a 5950X successor containing 1 CCD housing one Zen4 8-core complex, PLUS 1 Bergamo-style CCD housing 16 Zen4c cores.
making it a dual CCD AM5 CPU with 24 Cores and 48 Threads
best thing of that approarch would be that no "special hybrid CCD" is needed
True, but those aren't pics created by me.
I just passed a link on.
The L3 cache is not on the chip it's a vcache slice placed on top apparently but it's all rumours though I get your points, in all honesty I expected what your suggestions stated before this leak but I think it's possible this could work well.

I do still prefer just big guns(core's) and no knives(Ecores)personally.
 
Top