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AMD Ryzen 3000 "Zen 2" BIOS Analysis Reveals New Options for Overclocking & Tweaking

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So, this is not exactly untied from memory clock as AMD said previously. IF clock is still tied to MEMCLK but they added the divider to handle higher memory clocks.
Seam's like the best of both worlds to me, overclock both together or ram alone, or auto , win win.

Epyc embedded 3000 is 14nm 1st gen Zen and was released over a year ago. These are just Ryzen 1000 series dies that have all 32 pci-e lanes working. The 12 and 16 core models are just like current threadrippers with 2 active dies, except epyc 3000 has no dummy dies on the package. The 3000 has nothing to do with what gen the product is. 1st gen Epyc is already Epyc 7000.
The embedded market segment and naming is completely seperate from consumer and the pro domain, Epyc 3000 embedded was gen 1 but consumer ryzen 3000 out soon certainly is not 1st gen zen.

the write up below in the linked site states what this chip is , Snowy owl

"COM Express Type 7 Basic module with AMD embedded EPYC 3451 (Snowy Owl) 16 core / 32 threads processor with 2.15GHz up to 3.0GHz core frequency, 32MB L3 cache and 2666MT/s DDR4 SODIMM memory interface for up to 96GB. TDP 100W "
 
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Seam's like the best of both worlds to me, overclock both together or ram alone, or auto , win win.
Given the settings in the article, the settings are UCLK = MEMCLK, UCLK = MEMCLK/2 and Auto will most likely make it switch from first to second at some frequency.
Not saying it is not good or not an improvement.
 
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Could it be those memory divider options are only in there for 1xxx and 2xxx CPUs and if there is 3xxx model popped in, it runs async to the RAM and may have a separate option for setting its speed? Or it could be fixed not exposed to the user too maybe.
 
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If that is true it could make the 2990WX's successor the fastest TR4 CPU.
I am still looking for that link to the info but can't remember which website lol,
Well if you think about it, if AMD is taking this approach as described by TPU, Infinity Fabric 2 can't be the same speed as the Integrated Memory Controller if it wants to achieve that very high speed frequency of 100 GB/s. If for example IF2 is tied to the memory controller speed, ZEN2 WILL face a huge Latency Penalty. IMO

The original Infinity Fabric was tied to the memory controller for this reason. Personally I don't think simply doubling the bandwidth of Infinity Fabric from the original ZEN is going to be enough to fully offset latency issues. They need more than 100 GB/s IMO.
Example, a system using DDR4-2133 would have the entire SDF (Scalable Data Fabric) plane operating at 1066 MHz. This is a fundamental design choice made by AMD in order to eliminate clock-domain latency. This time around it ain't possible unless AMD jacks up the DDR4 memory speed to well over 4500-5000+? if they plan on IF2 running at the DDR4 speed.

Who knows really, all I can say is AMD is VERY well aware of the ZEN+ and ZEN latency issues. Hopefully they've they've resolved it for the official ZEN2 launch.
 
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fast your seatbelts trolls, this train will wreck anything 16 miles per second in mid july. Intel soon to be massacred. The best protest you can ever do against intel is to buy a ryzen 3xxx series cpu.
 
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fast your seatbelts trolls, this train will wreck anything 16 miles per second in mid july. Intel soon to be massacred. The best protest you can ever do against intel is to buy a ryzen 3xxx series cpu.
Which is interesting, because your post is the first to come across as trollish in this thread.
 
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yhe, it does sounds like they again trying to "fix" a latency problem with speed, but the true is I have DDR3 and it gives me 20-25 giga speed and nothing is remotely limited by speed and I have only a dual channel, people with 4 channels show that it gived them nothing (outside bechmarks), what good will 100 giga do if nothing is limited by speed anyway? but math checks out: more cores, if they all working could probably use more speed from memory but this is only good for the programs that do large data sets on many cores at the same time, games on the other hand don't :x it is whay core 2 duo was mutch faster per clock for games: fast access to large L2 cache (6 mega in 15 clocks) and even to this day nothing beats it at that (haswell, which is pretty much the same cores intel using today with latest generations (only with DDR4 controller) has 30 clocks penalty for access to his 8 mega cache, so to compensate for this very high latency, intel added a 256K dedicated cache (which is 12 clocks) in the hope that it will help (it probably does, for smaller data sets of corse).

if the IF still has big latency, this are a processors that are going to be good for heavy duty things with large data sets, you will can play games on them but probably not as high performance as intel (round 2 of low 1080p performance on zen).

but this is all theories nothing is know right now, and I also hope that outside the increase speed the latency this time will also be good.

it strange but seems to me that all industry is going in the same direction: DDR4 higher latency than DDR3, haswell processors more latency over core 2 duo, AMD more latency in cache and memory etc
funny thing is that up to 2008 the trend was reverse: they both intel and AMD developed integrated memory controllers with nahaylem and phenom
 
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Yep I see my MSI Pro Carbon has indeed got an Update for the new CPU's, will I upgrade to one? no I dont think so just yet, 2700x has plenty of horse power for what I do and play.
 
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What I'm wondering now is this: What should I upgrade when zen 2 arrives? For streaming+gaming I'm running into a few performance issues in-game at higher stream settings.

1) just the 2700x to 3700x 12-core
2) the processor AND my x470 k4
3) processor, motherboard and my 32gb 3200c16 ram

I did keep all options in mind when building my pc, but I'm just not sure what will limit performance and stability with zen 2, especially if any extra features are limited to x570 and my ram isn't 100% stable on my current mobo just yet, about 99% (resets if there's a software failure because the bios isn't too keen on it and ryzen master is keeping it at 3200).

Hopefully a bios update and a new processor will solve my ram stability issues at least, cause it turns out the k4 actually has built-in rgb lighting and it looks awesome in my pc!
 
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I wonder if all the AM4 chipsets will handle Infinity Fabric 2. I assume so since it'll be in the CPU and not restricted to the board. However, I can't help but remember back to the AM2 days. You could use more advanced CPUs on the older socket but you'd get a big performance hit and loss of features. I remember doing this and the difference between the stock HyperTransport 1.0 and the later upgrades on better chipsets was huge. Going from AM2-AM3+ was a visible performance gain. To the point it was silly to use them on older boards. You kinda had to upgrade those boards to get your moneys' worth.
 

olymind1

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I'm wondering what would be faster: 1x8 core with cache, or 2x4 core with twice the cache of a single chiplet. In the case of the cache isn't damaged at manufacture of course.

AMD could sell all the broken cores/chiplets, and we could buy them cheaply. Everybody wins. :D
 
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thought the same, they gonna have so many chiplets to bin from and make any combination they like, same thought on TR3, what if they use 8 chiplets with 4 best active cores+ added cache?
 
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I wonder if all the AM4 chipsets will handle Infinity Fabric 2. I assume so since it'll be in the CPU and not restricted to the board. However, I can't help but remember back to the AM2 days. You could use more advanced CPUs on the older socket but you'd get a big performance hit and loss of features. I remember doing this and the difference between the stock HyperTransport 1.0 and the later upgrades on better chipsets was huge. Going from AM2-AM3+ was a visible performance gain. To the point it was silly to use them on older boards. You kinda had to upgrade those boards to get your moneys' worth.
it can be the oposite too, wolfdale on P35 was significantly faster than on P45, but this is very different thing :)
 
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Doesn’t sound like it’ll do well for gaming :/ more glue and more latency bottleneck
They were looking forward to making it the slowest CPU in AMD history, you just figured it out first. /s
 
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lel, it was faildozer job :)
 
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yhe, it does sounds like they again trying to "fix" a latency problem with speed, but the true is I have DDR3 and it gives me 20-25 giga speed and nothing is remotely limited by speed and I have only a dual channel, people with 4 channels show that it gived them nothing (outside bechmarks), what good will 100 giga do if nothing is limited by speed anyway? but math checks out: more cores, if they all working could probably use more speed from memory but this is only good for the programs that do large data sets on many cores at the same time, games on the other hand don't :x it is whay core 2 duo was mutch faster per clock for games: fast access to large L2 cache (6 mega in 15 clocks) and even to this day nothing beats it at that (haswell, which is pretty much the same cores intel using today with latest generations (only with DDR4 controller) has 30 clocks penalty for access to his 8 mega cache, so to compensate for this very high latency, intel added a 256K dedicated cache (which is 12 clocks) in the hope that it will help (it probably does, for smaller data sets of corse).

if the IF still has big latency, this are a processors that are going to be good for heavy duty things with large data sets, you will can play games on them but probably not as high performance as intel (round 2 of low 1080p performance on zen).

but this is all theories nothing is know right now, and I also hope that outside the increase speed the latency this time will also be good.

it strange but seems to me that all industry is going in the same direction: DDR4 higher latency than DDR3, haswell processors more latency over core 2 duo, AMD more latency in cache and memory etc
funny thing is that up to 2008 the trend was reverse: they both intel and AMD developed integrated memory controllers with nahaylem and phenom

Check this out if you haven't already. Its perhaps one of my favourite break downs on cache memory. And in regards to zen/zen+ watch at 23min. But in short, the latency issues are not as bad as people think if you actually look at this from the right perspective. Basically you would need to look at zen as having 8mb L3 cache per ccx rather than 16mb total L3 cache per chip. Often times its not as big of an issue because data from main memory is copied to the L1 and L2 cache only(inclusive cache), and L3 cache working only when data is evicted from L2 cache. When L3 cache is filled; the ccx goes back to main memory rather than the other ccx L3 cache. Normally thats ok because the L3 cache works more to support the L2 which is local to each core so the performance impact is hardly a big deal especially when the OS scheduler is aware of the memory configuration.


Also in response to some of the other comments in this thread; I'm not exactly sure this has anything to do with gaming performance compared to intel, that is more due to the slight single core advantage intel has on the super high clocked models, but otherwise we see AMD ryzen doing rather excellent on multicore performance which is, in theory, where you would expect to see a shortcoming.

With the latency and cross migration issues being highlighted however; we can now speculate on what AMD can do to offset the issues and how an IO die fits into all of this:
1. An IO can simply work as a scheduler that stores data addresses to ensure no redundancy takes place when you have multiple cores and data migration, so even if the latency is higher, the communication remains streamlined and manageable. When you have 4 chips on a module like in threadripper; each memory controller would need to connect with 3 other chips via different IF links, which is probably why according to the test in the video we see the latency inline with main memory which indicates resorting to main memory rather than other ccx directly. This implementation would still be NUMA but would work much better than previous iterations of MCM allowing for some level of L3 utilization/sharing across all chiplets without always resorting to main memory.

2. The IO chip can also include the memory controller rather than just IF interconnects and schedulers. This would mean the chiplet complex wont really need a NUMA configuration and the latencies would be normalized across all chiplets. I can see this having some drawbacks/trade-off's but also much cost effectiveness in terms of the chiplet design. This implementation is most likely the case because AMD already showed a 1 chiplet cpu that had the IO chip as well; which gives the impression that a single chiplet cannot function without the IO chip.

3. AMD can double L3 cache and retain the higher modularity aspect per ccx. This retains the older challenges but gives a larger buffer before needing to reach out to main memory or other CCX L3.

4. make L3 cache shared between 2 ccx on each chiplet and add complexity in design in case of a one ccx zen2 implementation (unless a one ccx design retains the same L3 cache size). However we already saw the zen apu(2400g) having 4mb l3 cache for the 1 ccx it has rather than 8mb so perhaps this is not a big concern for AMD. This implementation can be used to pair 2 ccx's together without needing to redesign the whole ccx into an 8 core; giving one bigger pool of L3 cache per 8 cores. This means apps using up to 8 cores would naturally be less effected by any latency issues of cross chip/cross core migration etc. Do note though that I'm ignorant of much of the finer technicalities here so id love some input on this area and whether shared L3 cache local to all 8 cores in 2 ccx's is even possible without major redesign or using IF links.

5. AMD could combine aspects from all the above which would practically minimize most or all issues related to latency. One thing that we can however count on for sure is that the IO chip does a better job connecting the ccx's and chiplets together without resorting to main memory; otherwise AMD would've stuck to the old design. One thing I do worry about is if other drawbacks get introduced in case the IO has a unified memory controller for all chips that would fix old problems of cross migration by offering consistent latencies, but in turn increase latencies when an application exceeds all L3 cache and is running on system memory as well.
 
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This new special mode (which is a JEDEC standard) lets the memory manufacturer increase DRAM yields by selectively disabling bad memory cells, to replace them automatically with working ones from a spare area, similar to how storage devices map out bad sectors. We're not sure why such a feature is being exposed to end-users, especially from the client-segment. Perhaps it will be removed on production motherboards.
Nothing for us dirty consumer pesants.

Isn't this exactly the feature that everyone wants so you can disable bad memory cells and pass memtest and continue using the PC for some more time. Long overdue.
Should be some kind of a setting to select which lets you select which cell, in HEX or otherwise (you'd need to look at the manual for the map of cell IDs), unless it has some onboard-chip/logic which figures that out.
 
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What I'm wondering now is this: What should I upgrade when zen 2 arrives? For streaming+gaming I'm running into a few performance issues in-game at higher stream settings.

1) just the 2700x to 3700x 12-core
2) the processor AND my x470 k4
3) processor, motherboard and my 32gb 3200c16 ram
I would update only the processor for now, faster than 2700x and will likely use 20% less electricity plus 4 cores, 8 to 12.
 
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There's one thing I read about a couple weeks ago about AMDs use of Infinity Fabric 2. The author claimed reliable sources close to AMD said that Infinity Fabric 2 may have a fixed speed (A very high speed) and not tied to the Integrated Memory Controller Speed. Or something of that nature.

He further explained that AMD may take this approach to help eliminate most or all latency issues found in ZEN and ZEN+. This was based on ZEN2 engineering sample testing. So it seems AMD isn't testing out various methods to determine what works best. I assume.

Speculation of course, but that's what I read. If I can locate that link I'll share it.
That's what the above article states. Twice the bandwidth IF offers now, which is a good thing and required since the memory is going straight through the chiplet.
 
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People have a huge misconception when comparing Ryzen to Intel. I keep hearing this nonsense about Ryzen can't perform in high end gaming. Seriously utter Nonsense.

My setup does 1440p Ultra High Quality Settings and I'm between 70 to 144 FPS on all my games including Metro 2033 and Metro Last Light. On a RX580 8GB GPU and a Ryzen 7 1700X.
My RX 580 will most likely be replaced by Navi, depending on its price to performance.

But enough with the "Intel is better in Gaming" nonsense.
 
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For high end/res gaming GPU is always more important than CPU, that is not to say you pair a Pentium with 2080Ti but the difference between an i5/i7 is negligible so is 2700x & most Intel counterparts. The obvious exception being OCed CPU but even there you need to go above 5GHz to see a noticeable difference in gaming.
 
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People have a huge misconception when comparing Ryzen to Intel. I keep hearing this nonsense about Ryzen can't perform in high end gaming. Seriously utter Nonsense.

My setup does 1440p Ultra High Quality Settings and I'm between 70 to 144 FPS on all my games including Metro 2033 and Metro Last Light. On a RX580 8GB GPU and a Ryzen 7 1700X.
My RX 580 will most likely be replaced by Navi, depending on its price to performance.

But enough with the "Intel is better in Gaming" nonsense.
Its not a misconception and there is a metric ton of data available for you to enjoy that underlines major gaps between Core and Zen at high refresh. What you are saying is that a clockspeed gap of 600-800mhz makes no difference... it does. Both in min and max FPS, and both matter a lot for high refresh rate gaming. In your example you are completely GPU limited, you are playing shooters at 1440p high settings. You are 'between 70 and 144'... that says just about nothing.
 
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