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AMD Ryzen 9 7950X

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AMD has an Eco mode on these, and I wouldn’t mind seeing extensive testing of these chips under modest coolers and 65W and 100W modes. I bet you’d still get really good everyday performance out of it. This is a 16C CPU mind you, we do have to contend with physics eventually. If you want crazy levels of sustained multithreaded performance, something has to give.
Put the 7950 against the 5950 at the same TDP and see what you get—I bet you’ll still get the rated boost clocks across some cores, they just won’t sustain near as long.

Even with Adler lake, those E cores can only buy you so much efficiency. When the workload hits, total energy consumed is going to be measured by the sustained load X time to complete. Pure max power draw is only half the story.
 
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That is the main problem with the whole Turbo Boost thing on both Intel and now AMD. Reviewers test with the best possible equipment, so their results are not representative.

There have been pre-built PCs with a 12900K where the CPU throttles to 12700K level of performance, because they screwed up the cooling.

Unfortunately, they are selling you a CPU with a base clock. That is what you are paying for. All the boost stuff is optional (even if turned on by default), and they tell you about it in the product sheet or whatever.
But with 7950/7900 you must use good AIO (AMD more than recomend it) that gows 100% fan, with extreme noise, from the very first seconds of load to be able to get those boost.
On the other side (intel), temprature build is gradual so you can get away with 'just' a good fan cooling (as long you dont have long loads) and much lower overall noise.
 
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AMD has an Eco mode on these, and I wouldn’t mind seeing extensive testing of these chips under modest coolers and 65W and 100W modes. I bet you’d still get really good everyday performance out of it. This is a 16C CPU mind you, we do have to contend with physics eventually. If you want crazy levels of sustained multithreaded performance, something has to give.
Put the 7950 against the 5950 at the same TDP and see what you get—I bet you’ll still get the rated boost clocks across some cores, they just won’t sustain near as long.

Even with Adler lake, those E cores can only buy you so much efficiency. When the workload hits, total energy consumed is going to be measured by the sustained load X time to complete. Pure max power draw is only half the story.

This. These tests with the CPU at 230W or more are almost completely pointless for sustained multithreaded workloads (rendering, etc) in actual workstation usage. The CPU will likely be far more efficient (joules per work accomplished) and certainly simpler to cool at much lower power levels than that, and probably performance wouldn't even suffer that much even by appreciably reducing the TDP.
 
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But with 7950/7900 you must use good AIO (AMD more than recomend it) that gows 100% fan, with extreme noise, from the very first seconds of load to be able to get those boost.
On the other side (intel), temprature build is gradual so you can get away with 'just' a good fan cooling (as long you dont have long loads) and much lower overall noise.
100% fan RPM could be barely noticeable (if at all). Check Noctua for example.

That 'gradual' temp on intels that you speak of is pure BS! I have many last-year intels and under load the fans start screaming (stock server and laptop fans) after a second or two!

If you speak of custom fan curves, etc. then you get into enthusiast ballpark where users are either aware of what they are doing or they are willing to experiment and accept the risks. Everyting else is delusion or wishful thinking.
 
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But with 7950/7900 you must use good AIO (AMD more than recomend it) that gows 100% fan, with extreme noise, from the very first seconds of load to be able to get those boost.
On the other side (intel), temprature build is gradual so you can get away with 'just' a good fan cooling (as long you dont have long loads) and much lower overall noise.
This is how gradual Intel is. This is an 11700 with unlocked power limits under a 280 mm AIO in Prime95.

1.gif
 
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This is how gradual Intel is. This is an 11700 with unlocked power limits under a 280 mm AIO in Prime95.

View attachment 263118
Is this the way zen3 and AL shoot as well?
And if so than zen4 is just more of the same, except all reviews pointing the instantaneous high temps. Can you explain?
 
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Is this the way zen3 and AL shoot as well?
And if so than zen4 is just more of the same, except all reviews pointing the instantaneous high temps. Can you explain?
Depends on which CPU. I have a R3 3100 (albeit, Zen 2) that takes about 10 minutes to reach 70 °C, and maybe another 5 to reach 75 with the stock cooler.

Generally speaking, the less heat you put into a system (any system, not just computers), the more of it the system can store and dissipate before saturation.

Generally speaking again, the smaller the die area is, and the more power you pump through it, the more trouble you're going to have with heat dissipation.
 
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I'm seeing so many people complaining about gaming performance... AMD's 3D V-Cache is the new gaming line is it not? I'm rather excited for what's to come if the non-gaming line is trading blows with the 12900K.
 
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Garbage power consumption. Double the draw for a 30% increase?

"I may not be a smart man but I can tell when something's f***** up...and that's f****** up.
 
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I'm seeing so many people complaining about gaming performance... AMD's 3D V-Cache is the new gaming line is it not? I'm rather excited for what's to come if the non-gaming line is trading blows with the 12900K.
That's what they said. We'll see what they come up with. I hope it won't only be one SKU, like with the 5000-series. A 7950X 3D would be nice! :rolleyes:
 
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Excellent review like always. I've read most comments and many other reviews too. I understand that they set the power limit very high so that the management circuit in these CPUs actually prefers to stay at the TJ MAX (which is considered by AMD completely fine for 24/7 operation and is not the absolute max allowed temperature) and then hit the power limit.
I've seen multiple reviews that even the 7600X hits 92 degrees in just a matter of seconds on AIO cooling without throttling. Throttling is not dropping all core 100% load frequency by some hundreds of MHz. That's within design spec. Throttling is frequency fluctuating much, not being stable at all, dropping below spec for many seconds etc etc.
De8rauer who delidded it only saw 200-300 more MHz in all core sustained load, which is completely normal and above spec.
I of course wouldn't want my brand new 700€ CPU to be running at 95 degrees Celsius (personal preference) on a 360 water cooling, but if it's done on purpose it's okay for me...
What is not ok are the ridiculous prices of the platform. I wouldn't buy an $400+ desktop motherboard no matter what. I just refuse to accept it. I'd seriously prefer to buy a B550 with a 5800X3D. It's the same with official new GPU prices. I can and will skip everything until they have affordable options. If they don't, I still won't pay them. I can play my games on medium settings on my console or my 5600H/3060 130W laptop...
 
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Sorry for crapping on this parade but RPL is expected to have a 15% better ST performance and 41% better MT performance, with the same if not better thermals than ADL.

This not a rumor, that's the official information.

Just don't rush with a new Zen 4 platform ;) Intel has some aces up its sleeve :)

I've checked the graphs and that will make 13900K match the MT performance of 7950X and be an indisputable king in ST mode.
 
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Thanks for another great review, @W1zzard. Definitely a mighty powerful CPU, but that thick IHS is hurting thermals for sure. Truly makes me wonder if keeping cooler compatibility by maintaining Z-height was worth it - now they're stuck with this for the lifetime of the platform, after all. I guess AM5 delidding will be the hot new enthusiast thing? I suppose it's good that der8auer's delid tools tend to be relatively affordable.


Also, @W1zzard, can you please do a power limited review, maybe of this and the 7600X? I assume these new AM5 chips have a built-in "Eco Mode" cTDP-down setting accessible in BIOS just like AM4 chips did, which would be an excellent starting point, though I guess that also depends on what power level that Eco Mode setting is at. 105W for 170W chips and 65W for 105W chips, maybe?
 
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Garbage power consumption. Double the draw for a 30% increase?

"I may not be a smart man but I can tell when something's f***** up...and that's f****** up.
Yea. As posted on the 7900X line. There was a real good reason why I made my upgrade that I did. There is NO EXCUSES for this.

If you are getting performance increase AT THE EXPENSE of heat and wattage usage, then it is NOT a real performance increase at all.
 
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Throttling is not dropping all core 100% load frequency by some hundreds of MHz. That's within design spec. Throttling is frequency fluctuating much, not being stable at all, dropping below spec for many seconds etc etc.

I've seen this being repeated around, but on my 12700K I don't observe frequency dropping below spec when the CPU reaches the thermal throttling point. The CPU gradually decreases frequency (and voltages) and then oscillates quickly by a few hundred MHz to mantain temperatures at the configured level, like AMD is supposed to be doing here.

The Intel datasheets suggest that in some cases the processor duty cycle can be decreased to 1/4 of the regular rate (25% on, 75% off), if voltage and frequency changes do not manage to decrease temperatures, but this does not normally happen.
 
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Sorry for crapping on this parade but RPL is expected to have a 15% better ST performance and 41% better MT performance, with the same if not better thermals than ADL.

This not a rumor, that's the official information.

Just don't rush with a new Zen 4 platform ;) Intel has some aces up its sleeve :)

I've checked the graphs and that will make 13900K match the MT performance of 7950X and be an indisputable king in ST mode.
While I don't disagree completely, why don't we wait for independent reviews and decide afterwards, instead of putting more wood to the fire?
 
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One thing that sticks out is that Ryzen 7000 CPUs are tuned far outside the efficiency sweet spot:

CLOCKS-and-PWR-Technical-Cine-Perf-Per-Watt.png


Yea. As posted on the 7900X line. There was a real good reason why I made my upgrade that I did. There is NO EXCUSES for this.

If you are getting performance increase AT THE EXPENSE of heat and wattage usage, then it is NOT a real performance increase at all.

An IPC increase is absolutely there. As for thermals and TDP you can cut both in BIOS settings, no prob.

C4C-5950X-vs-7950X.png


While I don't disagree completely, why don't we wait for independent reviews and decide afterwards, instead of putting more wood to the fire?

I don't think I said anything wrong. RPL will be released very soon, there's no need to rush with a purchase.
 
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Yea. As posted on the 7900X line. There was a real good reason why I made my upgrade that I did. There is NO EXCUSES for this.

If you are getting performance increase AT THE EXPENSE of heat and wattage usage, then it is NOT a real performance increase at all.
Uhm, basic physics called - you can NOT have anything out of nothing. Something's got to give. Not at least until we understand Dark energy.
 
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But with 7950/7900 you must use good AIO (AMD more than recomend it) that gows 100% fan, with extreme noise, from the very first seconds of load to be able to get those boost.
On the other side (intel), temprature build is gradual so you can get away with 'just' a good fan cooling (as long you dont have long loads) and much lower overall noise.
What, I don't think it works how you think.
By the sounds of it under only heavy load it gets that 95° hot gaming mid 70's.

And it doesn't idle at 95°c so no you didn't have to have your fans t 100% all the time.
Like AL gamer's won't hit the highest temp with a good cooler.

Proper tasks will hit that 95 pretty much no matter the cooling besides extreme, because it's designed to.

What I would add is every other prior Ryzen generation did run hot.
As does any multicore WHEN loaded.
 
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I am a little disappointed with the performance per dollar with Zen4 but it certainly isn't the failure that the Intel fanboys on here are painting it as. Yes the 13xxx Intel chips should be faster but let's not forget that there will also be a X3D variant launched to counter that as well.
 

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THANK YOU for adding emulators. they always get overlooked in benchmarks. hopefully they become common with more games and emulators tested across multiple resolutions. like the normal gaming benchmarks you guys do here. an endless scrolling down of just emulation benchmarks.

BUT, for now. is the emulation page broken? Showing RDR2 in the PS3 graph. I'm assuming that's RDR1 and that's just a typo. but what is resolution used? 1080? 1440? 4k? what are the quality settings used? low? medium? high? I hope you check it out again and fix any errors and add the necessary information. Thanks :clap:
 
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That's what they said. We'll see what they come up with. I hope it won't only be one SKU, like with the 5000-series. A 7950X 3D would be nice! :rolleyes:
Man you and me both. I was pretty disappointed when there wasn't a 5950X version. The way I see how the priced the 7950X this time around, I would bet my third wife that they will have a 7950X V-Cache.
 
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Uhm, basic physics called - you can NOT have anything out of nothing. Something's got to give. Not at least until we understand Dark energy.

While I don't disagree with you, what he stated is not without merit. From where I sit Zen 4 just looks like Zen 3 with DDR5 and a really nice overclock. I wager if AMD released a DDR4 capable Zen 4 there would be little thay sets them apart aside from the clockspeed adv. That's probably the reason why Zen 4 is DDR5 only. Sell us that and a lot less people would be unhappy.
 
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I guess its ok compare unreleased parts to ones you can actually buy so think Ill go ahead and state with absolute confidence that the 7950X3D will absolutely slay Raptor Lake at everything just like the 7950X slays Alder Lake at everything. Seriously does anybody actually think Raptor Lake won't hit 95 degrees, have its priced increased and suck up some stupid amount of power? I have a 12900HK in my laptop that runs betweent 95-100 degrees all day every day
 
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That's an interesting train of thought. I've just watched JayzTwoCent's review of the 7950X. He also reached 95 °C with a 360 mm AIO on an open test bench while running 5.1 GHz all-core. Can we assume, then, that you won't be able to get the 5.1 GHz all-core unless you run at least a 360 mm AIO on open air?
You're still thinking the old way.

Just turn on PBO, give it a good cooler, and you might find it boosting beyond 5.1.
It will run as fast as it can for as long as it needs to, once the job is complete it will setting back down to idle.
This is the same way laptop cpu's operate.

there is some built in intelligence in this "auto-overclock" that will tweak it far better on the fly than you ever could manually.

While I don't disagree with you, what he stated is not without merit. From where I sit Zen 4 just looks like Zen 3 with DDR5 and a really nice overclock. I wager if AMD released a DDR4 capable Zen 4 there would be little thay sets them apart aside from the clockspeed adv. That's probably the reason why Zen 4 is DDR5 only.
the previous generation was a reengineer of the back end, this is a re-engineer of the front end and tuning with better lithography to clock faster.

Faster clocks always equal more heat.

The new socket gives higher power, and if your going to do a new socket might as well throw in as many new technologies as you can at the same time.
The switch to ddr5 is about giving a clean break and future proofing.

I suspect you would see a small drop in performance but not to the extent you're proposing.
Even in the intel chips there isn't a huge performance difference when switching memory types.

Also Tomshardware and anandtech have a nice writeups and pretty graphs that go into all of what I'm saying.
 
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