• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

AMD's 65nm Process CPU's Leak ?

HellasVagabond

New Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
3,376 (0.54/day)
Location
Athens , GREECE
System Name SECONDARY RIG / PRIMARY RIG / THIRD RIG
Processor i920@3.6GHz / i920@4GHz / AMD Phenom II 955
Motherboard Gigabyte EX58-UD4P / Gigabyte EX58-UD7 / ASRock 890GX3
Cooling CoolIT Domino ALC / Thermalright Silver Arrow / Thermalright VenomousX
Memory 12GB DDR3 @ 1800MHZ / 6GB DDR3 @ 2250MHZ / 4GB DDR3 @ 1600MHZ
Video Card(s) XFX ATI RADEON 5970 / GAINWARD NVIDIA GTX 580 / 2xGEFORCE GTX295
Storage 1550GB / 6TB SAS - SSD / 160GB SSD
Display(s) NEC 26WUXi2 / NEC 3090WQXi / SONY 55A2000 (1080P 55inch)
Case COOLER MASTER HAF 932 / COOLER MASTER ATCS 840 / ANTEC DARKFLEET DF85
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster X-Fi Xtreme Music / SoundBlaster X-Fi Fatal1ty Pro / Realtek Onboard
Power Supply CWT 1200W / Enermax Revolution 85+ 1250W / Ikonik Vulcan 1200W
Software Windows 7 x64 / Windows 7 x64 / Windows 7 x64
AMD seems to be having problems with leakage in their new processors a common problem with shrinking components where electricity can literally burrow out of a semiconductor and even blow entire circuits. A guy over at Investors Hub named wbmw located the problem in AMD's thermal design guide.

Interesting AMD 65nm Process Variation Analysis. I was looking through AMD's thermal design guide, and found some interesting results. If you look at the IDD current of their C1 states, you get an idea of the leakage at various voltages. I looked at their current CZ (F3 stepping, 90nm) and their DD (G0 stepping, 65nm) parts at the max P-state (1.2-1.3V for 65W TDP parts and 1.3-1.35V for 89W TDP parts) and min P-state (1.1V for all products). I pay special attention to their 3800+ part, which was their downbinned part for 90nm (therefore, highest leakage), and their higher bin parts, which presumably require binning for low leakage in order to fit in the power envelopes.
Note that with the new price cuts, AMD's new 90nm downbin is a 4200+ part, which is not listed in this already outdated thermal guide. For 65nm, their downbinned part was the 3600+ part. Today, it is 4000+. Note that you can see the part name in the ID Tag.

ID Tag Process IDDC1@HighV IDDC1@LowV
ADO3800IAA5CZ 90nm 23.4A @ 1.25V 7.6A @ 1.1V
ADO5000IAA5CZ 90nm 14.8A @ 1.25V 4.8A @ 1.1V
ADA5000IAA5CZ 90nm 24.8A @ 1.35V 5.7A @ 1.1V
ADA5600IAA6CZ 90nm 21.5A @ 1.35V 5.0A @ 1.1V
ADO3600IAA5DD 65nm 32.2A @ 1.30V 11.2A @ 1.1V
ADO4000IAA5DD 65nm 26.5A @ 1.325V 7.8A @ 1.1V
ADO4400IAA5DD 65nm 24.1A @ 1.325V 7.1A @ 1.1V
ADO4800IAA5DD 65nm 17.9A @ 1.35V 4.6A @ 1.1V
ADO5000IAA5DD 65nm 16.6A @ 1.35V 4.4A @ 1.1V


It looks to me like AMD splits 65nm parts into three buckets: let's call them low, medium, and high leakage.
1. The low leakage parts are used for the 4800+ and 5000+ products. They are lower leakage than AMD's best 90nm parts. This is good news. They draw about 8% less current at 1.1V, and about 23-28% less current at 1.35V.
2. The medium leakage parts are used for the 4000+ and 4400+ products. They are somewhat as high in leakage than AMD's leakiest parts on 90nm, and definitely leakier than their 90nm median parts. The 4000+ part, for example, draws more current at 1.1V than AMD's downbinned 3800+ part on 90nm. At 1.325V, they are drawing more current than AMD's high end 90nm parts at 1.35V. This is certainly not good news, and suggest that the median of AMD's 65nm process leakage is worse off than at 90nm.
3. The high leakage parts are downbinned to the 3600+ chip. Although this part has been removed from the current lineup, it's not clear whether they are still producing these and selling them as 4000+ parts, or whether their process has improved. At any rate, these parts are insanely leaky. A 1.1V, they are drawing almost 50% more current than AMD's worst 90nm part. And good thing AMD restricted the voltage to 1.3V, because even at this voltage, the leakage towers over the entire 90nm product line. I think these results are pretty interesting, and may explain why AMD has not been able to ramp 65nm. The leakage is killing them, and only their lowest leaking parts are able to hit 2.6GHz at 1.35V, and still maintain a reasonable power envelope. Also, I found something interesting in one of the other AMD datasheets I was looking at. Ever wonder why AMD's Brisbane chips do so much better in idle power dissipation tests done by reviews...? It's because they enabled a new mobile sleep state on it.
Check out Table 64 on page 278. Previously, desktop chips supported no better than C1 Halt state. Starting with G-step (Brisbane), they now support C3. Interesting that AMD has needed to start enabling mobile sleep states on their desktop parts. Intel's mobile parts support all the way down to C4E, while their desktop parts only support C1E. C4E flushes the cache and goes to a lower voltage than regular C4. C1E is also lower voltage than regular C1. Note that Brisbane also supports C1E and can hit lower idle power in that state. AMD doesn't state the voltage of that state, so I didn't bother listing it in the above tables. At any rate, their C1 is still at 1.1V, which is nice, because it lines up with current 90nm parts. Anyway, I thought people would find this interesting.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 
Last edited:

d44ve

New Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
2,520 (0.41/day)
Processor Intel E6600 @ 4.2GHZ Wo0t!
Motherboard ASUS Striker Extreme & eVGA 680i A1
Cooling Phase Change !!
Memory OCZ SLI 1066MHZ (2GB)
Video Card(s) EVGA 8800 GTX
Storage Western Digital 320 GB
Case Antec 900
Power Supply Lian-Li V2000
Software Vista Ultimate
I dont know about how reliable this is....... this was posted on an Investors website.... which that site deals with penny stocks for the most part.

And not only that, but it was posted in the intel forum
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 5, 2005
Messages
6,770 (0.98/day)
Location
Republic of Asia (a.k.a Irvine), CA
System Name ---
Processor FX 8350 @ 4.00 Ghz with 1.28v
Motherboard Gigabyte 990FX-UD3 v4.0, Hacked Bios F4.x
Cooling Silenx 4 pipe Tower cooler + 2 x Cougar 120mm fan, 3 x 120mm, 1 x 200 mm Red LED fan
Memory Kingston HyperX DDR3 1866 16GB + Patriot Memory DDR3 1866 16GB
Video Card(s) Asus R9 290 OC @ GPU - 1050, MEM - 1300
Storage Inland 256GB PCIe NVMe SSD for OS, WDC Black - 2TB + 1TB Storage, Inland 480GB SSD - Games
Display(s) 3 x 1080P LCDs - Acer 25" + Acer 23" + HP 23"
Case AeroCool XPredator X3
Audio Device(s) Built-in Realtek
Power Supply Corsair HX1000 Modular
Software Windows 10 Pro 64 bit
so its better to buy the higher number processors than lower number? hmm
 

kwchang007

New Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2007
Messages
3,962 (0.63/day)
Location
Severn, MD, USA.
Processor C2D T7200@2 ghz vcore: .9875
Motherboard generic laptop board
Cooling fan control and antec notebook cooler
Memory 2 GBs@ 533 mhz ddr2
Video Card(s) x1400 mobile, overclocked: 526mhz core/ 882mhz ddr
Storage 120 GB@ 5400 rpm fujitsu
Display(s) 15.4" 1440x900
Audio Device(s) integrated
Software vista 32 bit home premium
If this is true....interesting. If not....ehh AMD has a good 65 nm fab process. However I think I've seen things on the web about leakage, but maybe it was this article.
 

HellasVagabond

New Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
3,376 (0.54/day)
Location
Athens , GREECE
System Name SECONDARY RIG / PRIMARY RIG / THIRD RIG
Processor i920@3.6GHz / i920@4GHz / AMD Phenom II 955
Motherboard Gigabyte EX58-UD4P / Gigabyte EX58-UD7 / ASRock 890GX3
Cooling CoolIT Domino ALC / Thermalright Silver Arrow / Thermalright VenomousX
Memory 12GB DDR3 @ 1800MHZ / 6GB DDR3 @ 2250MHZ / 4GB DDR3 @ 1600MHZ
Video Card(s) XFX ATI RADEON 5970 / GAINWARD NVIDIA GTX 580 / 2xGEFORCE GTX295
Storage 1550GB / 6TB SAS - SSD / 160GB SSD
Display(s) NEC 26WUXi2 / NEC 3090WQXi / SONY 55A2000 (1080P 55inch)
Case COOLER MASTER HAF 932 / COOLER MASTER ATCS 840 / ANTEC DARKFLEET DF85
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster X-Fi Xtreme Music / SoundBlaster X-Fi Fatal1ty Pro / Realtek Onboard
Power Supply CWT 1200W / Enermax Revolution 85+ 1250W / Ikonik Vulcan 1200W
Software Windows 7 x64 / Windows 7 x64 / Windows 7 x64
All news are rumors prior to verification by the company itself ( whether its AMD or others ). And i doubt that this could surface in an AMD forum for obvious reasons.
 

d44ve

New Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
2,520 (0.41/day)
Processor Intel E6600 @ 4.2GHZ Wo0t!
Motherboard ASUS Striker Extreme & eVGA 680i A1
Cooling Phase Change !!
Memory OCZ SLI 1066MHZ (2GB)
Video Card(s) EVGA 8800 GTX
Storage Western Digital 320 GB
Case Antec 900
Power Supply Lian-Li V2000
Software Vista Ultimate
All news are rumors prior to verification by the company itself ( whether its AMD or others ). And i doubt that this could surface in an AMD forum for obvious reasons.



I am sorry.. I re read my comment, and it kind of came off like I was criticizing you.

I wasn't trying to do that, I was questioning the validity of the poster and where it was posted at.

Sorry
 

HellasVagabond

New Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
3,376 (0.54/day)
Location
Athens , GREECE
System Name SECONDARY RIG / PRIMARY RIG / THIRD RIG
Processor i920@3.6GHz / i920@4GHz / AMD Phenom II 955
Motherboard Gigabyte EX58-UD4P / Gigabyte EX58-UD7 / ASRock 890GX3
Cooling CoolIT Domino ALC / Thermalright Silver Arrow / Thermalright VenomousX
Memory 12GB DDR3 @ 1800MHZ / 6GB DDR3 @ 2250MHZ / 4GB DDR3 @ 1600MHZ
Video Card(s) XFX ATI RADEON 5970 / GAINWARD NVIDIA GTX 580 / 2xGEFORCE GTX295
Storage 1550GB / 6TB SAS - SSD / 160GB SSD
Display(s) NEC 26WUXi2 / NEC 3090WQXi / SONY 55A2000 (1080P 55inch)
Case COOLER MASTER HAF 932 / COOLER MASTER ATCS 840 / ANTEC DARKFLEET DF85
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster X-Fi Xtreme Music / SoundBlaster X-Fi Fatal1ty Pro / Realtek Onboard
Power Supply CWT 1200W / Enermax Revolution 85+ 1250W / Ikonik Vulcan 1200W
Software Windows 7 x64 / Windows 7 x64 / Windows 7 x64
I didn't take it as criticizing d44ve its ok :)
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Messages
439 (0.07/day)
Location
Manchester, UK
System Name Colin #2 - the revenge!
Processor Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Motherboard Gigabyte B550 Aorus Elite V2
Cooling 4x Phanteks SK140 PWM & Arctic Freezer II 280 AIO
Memory TeamGroup Dark Pro 8 Pack 2 x16Gb dual rank B-die 3666MHz CL16
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 4080 Suprim X
Storage 980 Pro 500Gb + WD SN770 2Tb
Display(s) Acer XB280HK 4K GSYNC (next thing I need to upgrade!!)
Case Phanteks P500A
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1200/1220
Power Supply 750W Corsair RM750
how bad is that compared to similarly clocked core 2 duo intels I wonder?
 

WarEagleAU

Bird of Prey
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
10,812 (1.67/day)
Location
Gurley, AL
System Name Pandemic 2020
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 "Gen 2" 2600X
Motherboard AsRock X470 Killer Promontory
Cooling CoolerMaster 240 RGB Master Cooler (Newegg Eggxpert)
Memory 32 GB Geil EVO Portenza DDR4 3200 MHz
Video Card(s) ASUS Radeon RX 580 DirectX 12 DUAL-RX580-O8G 8GB 256-Bit GDDR5 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video C
Storage WD 250 M.2, Corsair P500 M.2, OCZ Trion 500, WD Black 1TB, Assorted others.
Display(s) ASUS MG24UQ Gaming Monitor - 23.6" 4K UHD (3840x2160) , IPS, Adaptive Sync, DisplayWidget
Case Fractal Define R6 C
Audio Device(s) Realtek 5.1 Onboard
Power Supply Corsair RMX 850 Platinum PSU (Newegg Eggxpert)
Mouse Razer Death Adder
Keyboard Corsair K95 Mechanical & Corsair K65 Wired, Wireless, Bluetooth)
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
almost all cpus have voltage leak, this isnt new.
 
Top